That would be a very mild version of it

Well if the image on the front page is from the start proper as I rather think it is, I gather the picture is probably couple seconds into the race and the drivers are on second gear, even third may be coming up shortly. Anyway Hamilton has been quick off the line, Kubica, Kovalainen and Massa have more or less held station relative to each other or if anything Kubica has lost a bit of ground.

Now the fact that Kubica pulled clear of Kovalainen and closed up on Hamilton as did Massa come first corner may well be McBoys taking it a bit conservatively or simply suffering from extra mass going into first corner.

Proof please

Proof please

512 TR may be gone now, thanks to some decisive work by the admins

About time people like that are banned

I will willing admit I haven't got the foggiest idea about all this SECU stuff. I need some help.

Can someone answer me a few questions?

Does the FIA have access to every teams code for the ECU or not, and secondly can a team write into their code something that the FIA can't see/doesn't have access to?

Secondly, is it possible for the supplier of the ECU to effect the code/function of another team in an underhanded way that could slip past examination?

Thirdly, does the FIA have someone with relevant experience examining what the teams are upto?

I'm trying to settle a dispute on another forum where people think something underhanded is going on with relation to Ferrari's Engines.

As far as I know


Yes it will have I believe, it will also have a log file after every race that could add up to a couple of gig of information.
From what I have read, the teams won't put there own code into it, but their own parameters, think of it like a XML file, the "Elements" will be set in place by the manufacturer but the "Element Contents" inbetween will be upto the teams.

FIA (and teams), with it being Open source, have access to all the code.
So it will be very hard (and stupid) to hide dodgy code into the system


Everything will be in the log file

if you look through this thread you can see 2 actual F1 engineers Ninja2b and ATMAndy talk about the ecu, they said that the teams dont code the ecu...

Which is true, but that doesn't actually negate Chiara's point since the teams do have SECU code, but it is interface code, it sits between the teams' other electronic systems and the SECU and is particularly predicated on SECU behaving in an expected way.

If anything is changed in the SECU, that brittle interface code can break, and with unpredictable consequences, which I think is what Chiara is getting at.

Ninja2b says in this thread earlier that the SECU is the only control system allowed, I think ATM-Andy said the same.

Kar here, I cannot find ATM-Andys quorte mybe it's in another thread.

I would severely doubt either of them said that there is no other systems code running on current spec F1 cars.

The gearbox alone would enough computing power managing it, to fill a 1980s computer science department.

It's getting that code to talk in an intelligible manner to the SECU that is half the problem.

I think the gearbox is also controled by the SECU?

I was right

And what translates the data coming from the sensors (of which the teams must have vastly different implementations) to be compatible for processing by the SECU?

Surly the ECU does all the translation?? And the sensors have to be compatible with the ECU as well as being FIA approved.

MES probably say a sensor must work between range x and y....

Can't imagine they would mandate the sensors to be used I don't know enough about the implementation details but surely the major part of the work of integrating the SECU is testing that the sensors do cohere to the communication interface prescribed by the SECU and translating where necessary.

Imagine a complicated system like gearbox or engine with a myriad of sensors well integrated into the package I think the FIA would have a holy war on its hands (particularly given Homologation) if they were to tell teams to bin all those components and use MES approved ones.

Maybe Andy and co can clear it up.

If you're already at it, could you take care of the F2008 thread, too?

You'll forgive me but I've always suspected you were on Ferrari's payroll and now it's guaranteed... They know none of that either, at Maranello. They just do as they please!

All sensors and electronic components must be homologated as of the 2008 season. The sensor info is gathered by either the ECU or local data aquisition units, and then passed to the ECU. Plus, sensors just read in voltages, so if you set the range and calibration values right its all good as far as the ECU is concerned. It's all CAN bus stuff and all teams have the CAN signal breakdown, so its all very well described.

thanks ninja is there any other control systems in the car apart from the ecu? for the gear box for example???

Didnt realise all the other components had to be homologated as well. Does that mean they can't change them during the season, or can they buy in a new type of sensor as long as the FIA agree?

Sensors don't have to be from MES and they can be changed during the season, but new stuff has to be approved and homologated by the FIA before it is used. This means that the FIA knows all the inputs and outputs a team is using, and which they are not (the ECU has been built to accomodate different methodologies, so not all teams use all the inputs and outputs).

SECU is a misleading name... its actually called the "FIA Standard Powertrain Control System for Formula 1 Applications" or something like that. It controls all the systems on the car - Engine, Gearbox, Diff, Clutch, dashboard, everything.

@Ninja2b
Does the SECU control all systems directly or (as I was convinced to think) acts as a master controller to the local electronic units attached to those systems. When the F-2008 data was published I noticed that the ignition system is still Marelli, and this made me think the MES ECU interacts with it.

SECU controls it all directly. Other control boxes are not allowed, as they could modify the secu outputs and thus could enable traction control. Some teams still run marelli components of various types, eg: sensors or actuators, but the control is all done via the SECU.

Dumb question then, what box is controlling the pit speed limiter activation? Ie. it's claimed that some teams' limiter is disabled over a certain speed or gear, while McLaren's is not. So what box is imposing those rules? Can the SECU have additional functionality programmed into it?

It is not necessarily a question of functionality but parameterization.

That doesn't quite tie in with the autosport report:

"Some teams have systems where the speed limiter is deactivated above a certain speed or gear."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65889

Are you saying there is a standard SECU parameter (thus all teams have it) that dictates when the pit speed limiter can be engaged and McLaren have it set to "anytime" and other teams have it set to "above 120kph or "above 3rd gear"?

Well, it seems that you can write your own parameter.

Then that would be the ability to add functionality to the SECU, i.e to add additional code that runs inside it. Is this allowed?

Why should I get banned when I'm writing the truth?

The pitlane speed limit is controlled by the SECU. McLaren obviously weren't using the PLSL protection strategies that can be enabled in the SECU.

I don't know how to explain this any simpler: no additional functionality is allowed to be programmed in to the ecu. Not only is it not allowed, it is not possible. No team writes any control code for the cars. No team writes any control code for the SECU. Only MES can supply code. It's up to the teams to add in the correct parameters as required.

Copy!
Clear and understood!

Thanks for the explanations, BTW.

Thanks, very clear now!

Just inaccurate reporting from autosport. All teams have the system ("PLSL protection"), some chose not to use it.

For anyone who is interested below is a nice diagram of the layout of a MES system i found.

MES ECU Software Versions used at the 2008 Turkish Grand Prix

Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, V1.00.026
BMW Sauber F1 Team, V1.00.028
ING Renault F1 Team, V1.00.026
AT & T Williams, V1.00.028
Red Bull Racing, V1.00.026
Panasonic Toyota Racing, V1.00.026
Scuderia Toro Rosso, V1.00.028
Honda Racing F1 Team, V1.00.028
Force India F1 Team, V1.00.026
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, V1.00.028

whoaa, is that info supposed to be in the public domain?

Is 26 a step behind 28 ? What are the differences ?

Now that's very interesting information.

There wouldn't be much of a difference between 26 or 28 as it sounds like a really minor update or "built".

It should be buried in the steward's technical report.

e.g. I googled this document for Barcelona:

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/578...2008_Report.pdf

shows the SECU versions

I couldn't find the official doc for Turkey except for this:

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/6078/389/

but doesn't show the versions.



Maybe Andy has some secret info ;)

btw I wonder how they check the versioning. Do they do a checksum on the software? Or do they simply check the number? If they don't do the former, then one could easily write your own software.

Why should that be an issue?
The MES ECU is an FIA specified part, so no secrets there.

Thats 2007, they still have a T-Car...
I think the 2008 turkey report is going to be released today...

There was an evolution of the MES software between the Bahrain to Spanish GP. The ECU software at the Spanish GP was the same as used the Turkish GP by all the teams, except sadly the Super Aguri F1 Team obviusly.

There is little difference between V1.00.026 to V1.00.028 only a few of optional parameters.

All teams have access to which ever approved version software they like, it's not only available to selective teams, however different teams do have different requirements. Each team has a representative from McLaren Electronic Systems working with them to liaise over SECU matters.

The FIA check the software, of all the cars, over a race weekend, this usually happens around the practice sessions and is combined with other FIA mandated checks.

Finally there are many reasons why a team wouldn't write it's own software and try and hide it. The main reason would be as a consequence of being caught would mean a punished of almost definite exclusion from the championship.

Cool.

So are we expected to see version V1.00.030 or something from the Barcelona test onwards ?

I'm not sure of the number, however yes there is another evolution planned for all the teams as the FIA want some addition functionality programmed into the ECU.

It were the teams themselves willing to change the SC car rules, right ? Or do you mean something different than that anyway ?

That software changes couldn't be done before mid-August, I heard.

MES ECU Software Versions used at the 2008 Grand Prix of Monaco

Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, V1.00.029
BMW Sauber F1 Team, V1.00.029
ING Renault F1 Team, V1.00.029
AT & T Williams, V1.00.029
Red Bull Racing, V1.00.029
Panasonic Toyota Racing, V1.00.029
Scuderia Toro Rosso, V1.00.029
Honda Racing F1 Team, V1.00.029
Force India F1 Team, V1.00.029
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, V1.00.029

Everyone fully patched