So, Trulli says Toyota know that something fishy is going on.
Seems like 2008 will again be full of controversy.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64806

As I have said, you cannot load the clutch and after a few meters rely on TC, but you can rely on very efficient engine and throttle mapping.

And I even have an automatic procedure for my GM Meriva that launches it fast and whithout spinning the wheels.

- Jamm on the brakes, engage first gear.
- Start releasing the clutch until it bites.
- Accelerate up until it's almost impossible to hold the car stopped.
- When the lights go out, release the brakes and control the traction with the clutch and afterwards with the throttle.

Trulli and the Toyota engineers might wanna read this.

Seriously talking... From 2003 into 2004 electronic LC (a simple button) was banned, but mechanical one was still allowed. Williams didn't see it that way and their result was often poor starts in 2004.

ok i write to Max telling him to ban throttle/engine mapping

Bikes without engine mapping at barcelona are 2 seconds slower without it

'Paddock sources' back up the claims of Trulli.

The FIA now have access to those codes, which is why there is a standard ECU. If someone is by-passing the intention of the regulations then the FIA can now investigate how and put a stop to it, if they so wish. See, I don't have a go at the FIA for everything..... , on this (the Standard ECU) I am in complete agreement - I just hope they will follow reports like this up and act.

Sucks. But not that I didn't see it coming.

So the same old story again. This is the downside of having the TC banned. These kind of accusations were always there when it was banned and accusations and suspicions like this were the reason it got re-introduced in 2001.

It will go on like this for a couple of years now (with all the rumours and accusations and finger pointing) and then it will be allowed again for the same reason.

If there's a loophole that Toyota are too dumb to spot then more fool them. It's like the extra diffuser areas (scarbs explains it in the BMW thread) which some used and others (not all) have followed.

What will be more interesting to note is how this gets policed during the season. Is it 'new tech' which is allowed until the end of the season or is it a 'moveable aero device' which can be outlawed halfway through if someone complains.

If he thinks certain teams are running illegal technologies, report to the FIA anonymously.

When you do this sort of thing, it just looks like you are using it as an excuse.

But surely, if they want to run illegal systems in testing, they can?

Remember: bending the law is not breaking it.

One of the things I was looking forward to this season was more unpredictable starts where some drivers are able to make better starts than others, without the influence of electronics. It will be a shame if we are robbed of a haze of blue smoke at the start of every GP.

The ECU was brought in to eliminate TC and LC, so if the system is being used in such a way that these systems are still available in some form, then that goes against the intention of the rule. i would expect the 'moveable aero device' approach.

To Trulli and Toyota, start naming names or STFU. In any case, we all knew this would happen and will for some time.

This will probably sound like a really dumb idea to anyone involved with auto electronics, but in theory would it be possible to use an ECUCU? (An Engine Control Unit Control Unit). A secondary control unit that connects to the ECU that can do much the same as the ECU would have done in the past, but passes on to the ECU as if the throttle control etc were done manually?

I think this is not allowed by the rulebook.

As far as I understand it, they can use the secu to process the standard inputs which will obviously include gear and revs. Then they can just program the throttle so that in each gear engine speed can only increase so fast.

I think...

But this is so obvious then you would have thought the FIA would see it coming, and if they have then presumably it'll be allowed. But then also, why have some Toyota apparently not caught on?

Maybe it's so simple, I'm wrong

Any enlightenment, ATM_Andy & co?

I find it a bit strange that it is only Truli complaining though.

No this is against the rules, you’re only allowed to use the FIA ECU.

I'm not aware of anyone, Ferrari or Mclaren or anyone else for that matter, who are breaking the rules, It simply not like that when it comes to the ECU, if you did attempt to re-programme it you will be caught at FIA scrutineering.

I have tried to think of a good analogy of the MES ECU:

Your video recorder at home, you can change the channel, the time when it comes on to record, and when to stop, but you cannot change the firmware of the video recorder. It's the same with the ECU, you can change certain attributes of the ECU, but you cannot change the firmware of the ECU itself.

All of the sensors that feed data to the ECU have to be approved by the FIA, there really isnt a easy way of getting around it.

Adjusting the sensitivity of the throttle IS allowed as long as the throttle is fully open when the control is fully depressed and at idel when the control is released.

Isn't that a major loophole?

Are you saying that the throttle output can be adjusted when pressed 99% - 1%?

The excat throttle rules are as follows,

Engine throttles & Traction control.

> The only means by which the driver may control the engine throttle positions is via a single chassis
mounted foot pedal.

> Designs which allow specific points along the pedal travel range to be identified by the driver or assist him
to hold a position are not permitted.

> The minimum and maximum throttle pedal travel positions must correspond to the engine throttle minimum
(nominal idle) and maximum open positions.

> No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from
spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.

> Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

Now that Ralf's gone and he's actually got some competition at Toyota, he'll need an excuse for why he's not quick.

If team A knows that 87% throttle causes a wheelspin at the start then during launch they could instruct the ECU to deliver 86% throttle if the driver holds the throttle at 10%.

That should be legal because it is not excessive throttle demand from the driver.

So the system works not by limiting the throttle input but by increasing it to the limit.

Comments?

Unfortunatly, as always, it's not quite as simple as that.

I hope not.

Anyway it would be interesting to know what the teams are doing during launch. The videos we have seen from testing so far seem to indicate some kind of a LC system.

You mean Glock has TC in his car?

nah, I was only joking. Although coming from a GP2 car with fewer bhp but more torque than an F1 car in the lower gears, I reckon Glock'll probably have a slight advantage on Trulli in the early running

Hidden menu optional number 13 . . . sounds familiar.

What about a mechanical form of LC/TC?

Posted by Astro1

I doubt that it's hard to design a possitive differential, that would let go of the power to the wheels upon a sudden increase in speed. Upon a sudden acceleration not proportionate to the power being delivered. Once wheel speed accelerated out of porportion, the pinion and ring grars in the differential, could simply spin free of the axle(s)in question, until the wheel (that is loosing traction) regains traction.

A team could argue, that this is not a LC/TC system at all, but rather is simply a function of the standard differential in which one wheel must spin at a differnet speed to that of the other to negotiate a turn.

Is this topic dead?

Quick question please

Ive seen lots of pictures explainign the mclaren ecu and what-not, question that is in my mind is, do the other 10 teams have the same dashboard set up as mclaren do now?

I saw on a picture in here somewhere that the teams get the dashboard that mclaren uses which is on the front of the cockpit behind the steering wheel, something most other teams do not use

so with this new ecu in place do the other teams run the same dashboard and set up as mclaren? obviously different wheels but im interested in knowing about the dashboard set up.

"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from
spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver."

PCU-6C is a small, lightweight, driver display module designed to present the driver with the information he requires in a clearly legible and simple format via LED displays and LED lamps. Interface to a remote ECU is via a synchronous serial communications interface (clock, data, strobe and 2 brightness signals).

Supply Voltage (VDD) 4.8 to 5.5V DC
Operating input voltage range: 0 to 5V
Maximum protected input voltage range: ±25V
Input filter time constant: 1.25µs
Hard black anodised aluminium case
Approximately 100g
Splash resistant to standard motorsport fluids
Lid has a rubber seal, case fixings are sealed with silicone sealant
Maximum humidity 100%
Operating temperature 0 to 70°C
Vibration 100 to 1000Hz, all axes, 24 hours


Central Numeric Display area

A single digit, fitted centrally, indicating gear number. Size: 14.22mm high by 8mm wide. This is 7-segment red with right hand decimal point.

Left and Right Alphanumeric Display areas

Two smaller 4 character displays flanking the central digit. Each digit is 10.16mm high by 6mm wide. These are alphanumeric ‘starburst’ red LED displays with a right hand decimal point.

Warning/Marshalling LEDs

Two high intensity red , two high intensity yellow and two high intensity blue LED indicators positioned at the extreme left and right of the unit.

Shift LEDs

A horizontal bar of 15 high intensity LEDs at the top edge of the assembly. The 5 left hand LEDs (1-5) are high intensity green, the 5 middle LEDs (6-10) are high intensity red, and the 5 right hand LEDs (11-15) are high intensity blue.

The intensity of the warning and shift LEDs are controlled by the LED Indicator brightness signal, while the intensity of the LED displays are controlled by the LED Display brightness signal. These digital inputs are driven with a PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) signal at approximately 200Hz, to control the intensity.

If either of the brightness signals is left unconnected then they are pulled such that maximum brightness is achieved.

A grey acrylic circularly polarised anti-glare front screen covers the alphanumberic and 7-segment LED displays. This enhances the contrast between light from the display and incident light due to polarised filters absorbing back reflected light.

The LEDs on the front face of the unit are covered with a grey velvet polycarbonate label with clear windows.

so going by that, i guess all teams will use this same dashboard mclaren have been using for years now.

Once again it really isn't as simple as that I'm afraid.

One thing to remember is that Grip is NOT a constant, it is effected by many different variable.

200 engine engineers idle in their factory have lot of time to find subtle ways of getting best performance.

They have a new toy called "ECU" from Mcs.

Maybe Toyota guys are not smart enough.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64881

Max is entirly correct here, it's the point I tried to put accross a couple of weeks ago, it's pretty much impossable to do...

I'll be shocked if that is the case. Trulli may have his faults, but he is very quick, especially in qualifying.

It seems that teams may try to maximize their possibility for a good launch in other ways, but I don't see how they can possibly incorporate electronic launch control with this ECU. Giving the car a rearward weight bias (a la Renault a few years back) might help off the line, but the Bridgestones seem to want more weight up front to work optimally so I doubt many will try that.

The interesting thing there is the point Mosley made that the teams can run all sorts of CheatParts™ in testing so maybe they are using some kind of TC. Toyota perhaps has its ear to the ground a little too much.

Williams engineer to mate: "Hey look that's whatsisname from Toyota. Go and tell him we developed a chip that can make the car fly..."

Next days Autosport headline; "Trulli says Red Bull not the only team with wings"

So why would one run TC during a test day? One one hand it would give the driver less practise with the new behaviour of the cars, but conversely it might assist with more consistent lap times from the tyres if they actually wanted to measure... something aero related?

Something like this, perhaps...
"Ok, so for the next run we'll do 8 laps, and you'll be going through turn 10 and 16 at exactly 120km/hr each time, ok?"

Doubt that. I don't think TC is really required at speed, its main use is when exiting slow corners and accelerating.

As a comparator against last years performance. To see if the car is inherently faster, for example, and to get an idea of the optimal performance. It's hard to say as I don't work for a test team but nevertheless it is allowed and possible.

I find it sensational, that after Trully ran his mouth, we still have no suspects or ideas as to what he was talking about.

from what i saw on testing on the different youtube video's the cars were sliding a lot... as long as i have sliding cars on my tv screen i am happy.

i dont care about smoke and burning tires at the starts... which represents 5 seconds of a whole grandprix.

i think it will be very hard to manage engine mappings, unless all the electronic boxes around the engine are 100% standard, provided by the FIA and sealed.... that is the plugs and jacks are sealed.

Can anybody enlighten me (non-technician) in what way a limited slip differential could compensate for some of the changes due to TC-loss?
thanks,

a.

Everything in the ECU system sensors and down is FIA approved, the rules are very clear, Only the SECU can be used for control. No-one will risk FIA sanction over engine managment.

Honda has discovered a bug in the software of the MECU. When three buttons on the steering wheel are pushed in a certain sequence the mapping of the MECU is altered to a very aggresive mode which would make up for the ban of launch control and thus allowes very fast starts to be made. Whether or not McLaren knows about this (not unlikely) and whether there are more of these bugs is unknown. The FIA is said to start an investigation. Trulli seems to have been right.

Meanwhile Ferrari, like the others teams continue to collect data about the MECU to 'personalize' the system. They use two parallel systems: the MECU and the Magneti Marelli (that's why they're still a supplier/sponsor) they've had till last year. Using both systems allowes the teams to make comparisons and to optimalize the standard unit (of which the final version should be ready at the beginning of March) to the personal demands.

MES would be earning some € 1.900.000 for the assistance they give during the 2008 championship btw.

Is this bug something specific to the way Honda's systems work, or can all teams do the same thing?

I think all teams would be able to do it since it's a standard unit.

Thanks AFCA for the news.

Trulli said that he thought something wrong was happening as there were too fast starts done by other teams. Now this is the confirmation.

Pretty sad to hear about this, now all the question marks around McLaren, part of the team who cheated (not only accussed) during the last season and now supplies with an essential device to all the teams.