Full Version: Ascari III
Antonio and Alberto were among the greatest of their eras, but I have a vague memory of a third generation, the son of Alberto racing in formula Junior in the early 60s. Is my memory playing tricks again?
Roger,
from a fast inspection of the index of drivers (that finally came today, together with the second volume of FJunior records, as Don said) it doesn´t appear any Ascari on them...and it is supposed to cover 1958 to 1964 races, and around 800 drivers...
:-(
from a fast inspection of the index of drivers (that finally came today, together with the second volume of FJunior records, as Don said) it doesn´t appear any Ascari on them...and it is supposed to cover 1958 to 1964 races, and around 800 drivers...
:-(
Broken down by sex and age?
Roger, I know many race drivers who are.
Roger
Your memory is not playing tricks.
Ascari III (and I can't remember if he was Antonio or Alberto, but it was one of those) did at least intend to race. I remember reading about his going to England to work as a race mechanic, with a view to getting into racing.
It must have been early 1970s. I think he was about 20 at the time.
I was keen to follow his progress but never heard any more about him.
The quote "against his mother's wishes" seems to ring a bell, perhaps a combination of finding how hard it was and knowing his mother's fears might have persuaded him to give it away.
Three or four years ago I was talking to a friend in the Ferrari team at the Australian Grand Prix and one of the mechanics came along with "--- Ascari" embroidered on his overalls.
I asked was he related to Alberto. He lit up like a beacon and he said yes, he was, then added a little forlornly "but only distantly".
Your memory is not playing tricks.
Ascari III (and I can't remember if he was Antonio or Alberto, but it was one of those) did at least intend to race. I remember reading about his going to England to work as a race mechanic, with a view to getting into racing.
It must have been early 1970s. I think he was about 20 at the time.
I was keen to follow his progress but never heard any more about him.
The quote "against his mother's wishes" seems to ring a bell, perhaps a combination of finding how hard it was and knowing his mother's fears might have persuaded him to give it away.
Three or four years ago I was talking to a friend in the Ferrari team at the Australian Grand Prix and one of the mechanics came along with "--- Ascari" embroidered on his overalls.
I asked was he related to Alberto. He lit up like a beacon and he said yes, he was, then added a little forlornly "but only distantly".
Mike
I like to think I'm not broken down by sex and age. So far, I seem to have benefitted from both. But who knows how long that might last?
I like to think I'm not broken down by sex and age. So far, I seem to have benefitted from both. But who knows how long that might last?
Felix
Have I missed something here?
This index of drivers and two volumes of Formula Junior records - can you tell me more?
I have an obsession for collecting results and information on all forms of racing - no matter what the language.
You must have mentioned it somewhere that I have overlooked.
Have I missed something here?
This index of drivers and two volumes of Formula Junior records - can you tell me more?
I have an obsession for collecting results and information on all forms of racing - no matter what the language.
You must have mentioned it somewhere that I have overlooked.
Felix
I just answered my own question again.
I found your mention on the Formula Junior thread and had already asked the question.
I must try to track down the FJ book.
I just answered my own question again.
I found your mention on the Formula Junior thread and had already asked the question.
I must try to track down the FJ book.
hmmm...all I can find is a Swiss horse called Ascari III 
http://www.kvd.ch/Concourdata/Kloten/Startlisten/Pr1.htm
http://www.kvd.ch/Concourdata/Kloten/Startlisten/Pr1.htm
Neither prancing or swimming in the Monaco harbour, I presume!
I, too, seem to recall something from a pommie magazine as Barry mentions, but the details escape me. In fact, it had all escaped me until I read Barry's post.
I, too, seem to recall something from a pommie magazine as Barry mentions, but the details escape me. In fact, it had all escaped me until I read Barry's post.
In David Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars there is a picture of the Foglietti F3 car (Page 105) and it is captioned:
'The F3 Foglietti was a petite, clean-lined car, but that was almost the norm for the mid-1960s. In this photograph the driver is possibly of more interest for he is Antonio Ascari Jr, 'Tonino', son of Alberto, in his only serious season of single-seater racing.'
It was also reported in 'Motoring News' around 1963 or 1964 that Antonio Ascari Jr had enrolled at the Piero Taruffi Racing School.
'The F3 Foglietti was a petite, clean-lined car, but that was almost the norm for the mid-1960s. In this photograph the driver is possibly of more interest for he is Antonio Ascari Jr, 'Tonino', son of Alberto, in his only serious season of single-seater racing.'
It was also reported in 'Motoring News' around 1963 or 1964 that Antonio Ascari Jr had enrolled at the Piero Taruffi Racing School.
Hey! I think I've got that book! ... that far back, eh? No wonder Roger asked for help.
And still this BB pulls up info from all sources, thanks for posting, Francis, don't forget to come in regularly, your posting average is too low for someone who clearly has information that can help others out...
And still this BB pulls up info from all sources, thanks for posting, Francis, don't forget to come in regularly, your posting average is too low for someone who clearly has information that can help others out...
Antonio "Tonino" Ascari, the son of Alberto, indeed wanted to take up a racing career around 1965. I am not sure if he ever entered a race. His practice runs in F3 were much publicized by the Italian press of the time. His mother did not want him to race (not astonishingly) and what Mamma wants! Thus he stopped. It is true that he was for a time a racing mechanic in England, but earlier I think.
I remember an interesting book on Formula Junior: Orsini. Formula junior. Ed. de L'Automobile around 1968. It had complete results of all Italian and international FJ races plus some of the British ones and a complete technical description of all cars.
May I have a complete bibliographical information about drivers indexes?
I remember an interesting book on Formula Junior: Orsini. Formula junior. Ed. de L'Automobile around 1968. It had complete results of all Italian and international FJ races plus some of the British ones and a complete technical description of all cars.
May I have a complete bibliographical information about drivers indexes?
The real first name of Tonino was Alberto in memory of his grandfather. Alberto Ascari got married to Maria Antonietta Tavola in 1942 and Alberto was born the same year.
« Tonino », the son of Alberto, made 3 seasons in F3 but to his family’s satisfaction (especially his mother) would rather move towards the sale of cars and motorbikes.
Guest in 1964 to the Argentine Temporada, « Tonino » Ascari took his seat in a Sports car Maserati driven by Juan Manuel Fangio with Jose Froilan Gonzales as co-driver. They made an honour lap. Through the son, the two famous champions would pay tribute publicly to their former friend, rival or team mate, Antonio Ascari.
(taken and translated from Auto passion, Tribute to Alberto Ascari)
« Tonino », the son of Alberto, made 3 seasons in F3 but to his family’s satisfaction (especially his mother) would rather move towards the sale of cars and motorbikes.
Guest in 1964 to the Argentine Temporada, « Tonino » Ascari took his seat in a Sports car Maserati driven by Juan Manuel Fangio with Jose Froilan Gonzales as co-driver. They made an honour lap. Through the son, the two famous champions would pay tribute publicly to their former friend, rival or team mate, Antonio Ascari.
(taken and translated from Auto passion, Tribute to Alberto Ascari)
From Kevin Desmond's "The Man with Two Shadows":
Finally, Alberto's son, Tonino Ascari:- Although there were toy cars and photographs of his father in his bedroom in Corsa Sempione, Tonino had never seen his father race. In 1960, aged 18, Mietta sent him to Coventry, England, where he worked for Jaguars and learned to speak English. Returning to Milan, he got a job working in Gigi Villoresi's Innocenti-Mini Agency. Then he became involved with the building of racing cars for the Formula Junior 1,000 C.C. class, cars made by local constructors such as Stanguellini and Foglietti.
"Starting by watching them being built, I naturally became interested in testing them, and then in racing them."
On August 2 1963, Tonino became 21 years old and inherited a sum of money. Against his mother's wishes, (his grandmother, Eliza, had died three years before), some 27 days later, on August 29, he drove a Formula Junior car belonging to Angelo Dagrada, round Monza - the track so well known to his father and grandfather. By October he was attending the school course for drivers at the Vallelunga Autodrome near Rome, driving a 2.5 liter Ferrari. One month later, Tonino was up at Modena Autodrome, taking racing lessons in a 2 liter, two-seater Cooper-Maserati sportscar from his father's old rival, Piero Taruffi, whose idea it had been to create a little stable of young pilots - the Scuderia Centro-Sud. Also taking lessons was Farina's nephew.
On April 15 1964, Enzo Vigorelli announced that Tonino Ascari would race for two years with a Foglietti-Holbay Formula Three car under the colors of the Scuderia Madunina. That year, Tonino Ascari became Overall Champion of Italy in Formula 3, whilst Formula 2 Champion was a promising newcomer called Ernesto Brambilla.
"My participation in motor-racing," Tonino has recalled, "came from my own personal curiosity; that is, I experimented, enjoyed it, was amused by it and it gave me valid sensations. I raced for three years, then left the sport so that I could devote more time to an agency that myself and a friend were building up selling Italian and Japanese motorcycles.
"When I started, the Press at once decided to dub me, "The New Ascari", "The Third Ascari", and to expect big things of me. But you don't suddenly become a champion in only three years. It's necessary to break cars, to win races and to pass from one Class up to the next. And in fact, it is true that I found it hard to exist under the two, strong shadows of my grandfather and father. If I were to succeed, people would say that it was not because I was better than the others, but because I was my father's son. If I were to fail, then the dynasty was finished and the grandson should not have attempted to continue it.
"Then there was something else. Unfortunately I found a sponsor extremely interested in exploiting my name for publicity and other motives. As I did not want my name to be used by someone else for profit, I left the sport, never having accepted sponsorship. Had I had my own money, I would perhaps have continued racing. I also left the anxieties of motor-sport when I realized that they were of relative unimportance."
Tom
Finally, Alberto's son, Tonino Ascari:- Although there were toy cars and photographs of his father in his bedroom in Corsa Sempione, Tonino had never seen his father race. In 1960, aged 18, Mietta sent him to Coventry, England, where he worked for Jaguars and learned to speak English. Returning to Milan, he got a job working in Gigi Villoresi's Innocenti-Mini Agency. Then he became involved with the building of racing cars for the Formula Junior 1,000 C.C. class, cars made by local constructors such as Stanguellini and Foglietti.
"Starting by watching them being built, I naturally became interested in testing them, and then in racing them."
On August 2 1963, Tonino became 21 years old and inherited a sum of money. Against his mother's wishes, (his grandmother, Eliza, had died three years before), some 27 days later, on August 29, he drove a Formula Junior car belonging to Angelo Dagrada, round Monza - the track so well known to his father and grandfather. By October he was attending the school course for drivers at the Vallelunga Autodrome near Rome, driving a 2.5 liter Ferrari. One month later, Tonino was up at Modena Autodrome, taking racing lessons in a 2 liter, two-seater Cooper-Maserati sportscar from his father's old rival, Piero Taruffi, whose idea it had been to create a little stable of young pilots - the Scuderia Centro-Sud. Also taking lessons was Farina's nephew.
On April 15 1964, Enzo Vigorelli announced that Tonino Ascari would race for two years with a Foglietti-Holbay Formula Three car under the colors of the Scuderia Madunina. That year, Tonino Ascari became Overall Champion of Italy in Formula 3, whilst Formula 2 Champion was a promising newcomer called Ernesto Brambilla.
"My participation in motor-racing," Tonino has recalled, "came from my own personal curiosity; that is, I experimented, enjoyed it, was amused by it and it gave me valid sensations. I raced for three years, then left the sport so that I could devote more time to an agency that myself and a friend were building up selling Italian and Japanese motorcycles.
"When I started, the Press at once decided to dub me, "The New Ascari", "The Third Ascari", and to expect big things of me. But you don't suddenly become a champion in only three years. It's necessary to break cars, to win races and to pass from one Class up to the next. And in fact, it is true that I found it hard to exist under the two, strong shadows of my grandfather and father. If I were to succeed, people would say that it was not because I was better than the others, but because I was my father's son. If I were to fail, then the dynasty was finished and the grandson should not have attempted to continue it.
"Then there was something else. Unfortunately I found a sponsor extremely interested in exploiting my name for publicity and other motives. As I did not want my name to be used by someone else for profit, I left the sport, never having accepted sponsorship. Had I had my own money, I would perhaps have continued racing. I also left the anxieties of motor-sport when I realized that they were of relative unimportance."
Tom
Thanks, Tom, for the very opportune finding !
(That reminds me that Leif did insist a couple of days ago on the "need" to read The Man with two Shadows...)
And of course, thanks Roger for the idea...
Barry, whilst of course anything that you might need from my copies of the FJ registers is at your entire disposal (is that construction right in English? Anyway, you know what I mean) I got them from the people at Chaters, UK.
They have a website, but I usually deal with them over the phone. The guys called Sean and/or Eddie will help you, no doubt. :-)
Alessandro: "May I have a complete bibliographical information about drivers indexes?"
Sorry, what does that mean?
:-)
Felix
(That reminds me that Leif did insist a couple of days ago on the "need" to read The Man with two Shadows...)
And of course, thanks Roger for the idea...
Barry, whilst of course anything that you might need from my copies of the FJ registers is at your entire disposal (is that construction right in English? Anyway, you know what I mean) I got them from the people at Chaters, UK.
They have a website, but I usually deal with them over the phone. The guys called Sean and/or Eddie will help you, no doubt. :-)
Alessandro: "May I have a complete bibliographical information about drivers indexes?"
Sorry, what does that mean?
:-)
Felix
That was tremendously informative, almost everything anyone would want to know except for the blow by blow racing and dates and stuff. Karl is doing or has done a book, right? Where is he in this matter?
Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Barry, anything that you might need from my copies of the FJ registers is at your entire disposal :-)
Felix
Barry, anything that you might need from my copies of the FJ registers is at your entire disposal :-)
Felix
Felix
Thanks for the offer. I will keep it in mind whenever I need something from that era. I have just bought all the subsequent F3 books by The Formula 1 Register (five of them), so some day I might turn up the Formula Junior one as well.
I have bought books from Chaters, UK in the past. Their prices used to be very good at the shop, but they seem to have gone sky high since they have gone on the web.
Barry
Originally posted by tombe
From Kevin Desmond's "The Man with Two Shadows":
On April 15 1964, Enzo Vigorelli announced that Tonino Ascari would race for two years with a Foglietti-Holbay Formula Three car under the colors of the Scuderia Madunina. That year, Tonino Ascari became Overall Champion of Italy in Formula 3...
From Kevin Desmond's "The Man with Two Shadows":
On April 15 1964, Enzo Vigorelli announced that Tonino Ascari would race for two years with a Foglietti-Holbay Formula Three car under the colors of the Scuderia Madunina. That year, Tonino Ascari became Overall Champion of Italy in Formula 3...
OK, question: can someone confirm that statement concerning Ascari as "Overall Champion of Italy F3 1964"?
Because honestly, and after reading the Foglietti lines on the Hodges book, I do have the sensation that something does not match here...
Thanks :-)
Felix
PS : Where is Karlcars? ;-)
My Ascari book is done and will be published in October in the UK, probably available in the US in November. Hope you-all will like it!
Karl,
Delighted to hear those news. I will be ordering my copy on Monday so that as soon as it´s available I will get one.
Regardless of that, is there any info on this other Ascari that you could share with us on this thread or should we wait to read the book? ;-)
Thanks
Felix Muelas
Delighted to hear those news. I will be ordering my copy on Monday so that as soon as it´s available I will get one.
Regardless of that, is there any info on this other Ascari that you could share with us on this thread or should we wait to read the book? ;-)
Thanks
Felix Muelas
I found the following in Sheldon's Formula 1 Register Fact Book, Formula 3 1964-1966, which I recently purchased.
27 September 1964
Coppa dell'Autodromo di Monza (Formula 3)
No 36 Scuderia Madunini - Antonio Ascari - Foglietti
10th in Heat 1
12th in Final
No other mentions of him in F3 races that year.
27 May 1965
Gran Premio EBF Vigorelli, Monza (Formula 3)
No 2 Scuderia Madunini - Antonio Ascari - Pygmee
More than 80 entries
No mention of Ascari in heats or final.
No other mentions of him in F3 races that year.
01 May 1966
Gran Premio EBF Vigorelli, Monza (Formula 3)
No 39 Antonio Ascari - Antonio Ascari - Lotus-Ford
(three times 13! for an Ascari!)
Retired from heat with mechanical trouble.
06 May 1966
Circuito del Lago di Garda, Salo (Formula 3)
N0 44 Antonio Ascari - no entrant or car mentioned.
Retired from heat with mechanical trouble.
No more mentions of Ascari during 1966.
It would appear Tonino didn't get enough laps to learn very much about motor racing.
27 September 1964
Coppa dell'Autodromo di Monza (Formula 3)
No 36 Scuderia Madunini - Antonio Ascari - Foglietti
10th in Heat 1
12th in Final
No other mentions of him in F3 races that year.
27 May 1965
Gran Premio EBF Vigorelli, Monza (Formula 3)
No 2 Scuderia Madunini - Antonio Ascari - Pygmee
More than 80 entries
No mention of Ascari in heats or final.
No other mentions of him in F3 races that year.
01 May 1966
Gran Premio EBF Vigorelli, Monza (Formula 3)
No 39 Antonio Ascari - Antonio Ascari - Lotus-Ford
(three times 13! for an Ascari!)
Retired from heat with mechanical trouble.
06 May 1966
Circuito del Lago di Garda, Salo (Formula 3)
N0 44 Antonio Ascari - no entrant or car mentioned.
Retired from heat with mechanical trouble.
No more mentions of Ascari during 1966.
It would appear Tonino didn't get enough laps to learn very much about motor racing.
Barry, where did you get your copy of the F3 Fact Book from? I'd be interested in purchasing the whole lot, except for the 1947-1952 and 1989-1994 period, but I always thought they were sold out!? Can you help?
I bought some odd ones from a dealer in England. They are out of print, difficult to find, and expensive.
At around the same time I saw some others listed (oddly, filling some of my gaps, but duplicating none and with no apparent pattern to them) but they were sold before I got to them.
What I would like to have is a complete list of everything Sheldon has produced, so I know what I am chasing.
Does anyone have such a thing?
At around the same time I saw some others listed (oddly, filling some of my gaps, but duplicating none and with no apparent pattern to them) but they were sold before I got to them.
What I would like to have is a complete list of everything Sheldon has produced, so I know what I am chasing.
Does anyone have such a thing?
Well, Felix, of course I want everybody to buy the book! It's been delayed at the bindery but should be out any day. A link to it can be referenced (I hope) at http://www.karlludvigsen.com.
Ooops, just checked and the link isn't up yet. We'll get it sorted.
Ooops, just checked and the link isn't up yet. We'll get it sorted.
Tonino Ascari was at the Trofeo Alberto Ascari historic meeting at Imola in October this year, I believe as a guest of the organisers, Piave Jolly Club. A friend of mine took a photo but before anyone asks I don't have a scanner (or a copy of the photo)
I just came across a photograph that I think might be relevant to this thread. Unfortunately I still could not upload it successfully. I have sent it to Felix in the hope that he can do it for me.
I sent the above photo to Felix to post as I was unable to make it happen. I can't open it on my computer, getting only the "x". Is everyone else able to access it?
In any case, below is the message that goes with it.
___________________________________________________
I once mentioned that I buy what I call "second rate" motor racing books, or "pot boilers" because they so often have photos in them that you won't see anywhere else - sometimes they are historically important.
Recently I bought "Ferrari Racing A Pictorial History" by Colin Goodwin, merely because it was on sale at a very reasonable price.
The book has an odd collection of photographs, some of which have been seen many times before, some that are unusual. The captions are at best light weight, at worst inaccurate and misleading.
But I found some interesting photos, including one of Alberto Ascari in a Ferrari GP car with a boy beside him in a pedal car. My guess is that it is Tonino Ascari at about age eight.
_________________________________________________
In any case, below is the message that goes with it.
___________________________________________________
I once mentioned that I buy what I call "second rate" motor racing books, or "pot boilers" because they so often have photos in them that you won't see anywhere else - sometimes they are historically important.
Recently I bought "Ferrari Racing A Pictorial History" by Colin Goodwin, merely because it was on sale at a very reasonable price.
The book has an odd collection of photographs, some of which have been seen many times before, some that are unusual. The captions are at best light weight, at worst inaccurate and misleading.
But I found some interesting photos, including one of Alberto Ascari in a Ferrari GP car with a boy beside him in a pedal car. My guess is that it is Tonino Ascari at about age eight.
_________________________________________________
This photograph was taken at Silverstone in July 1961. It shows a five times world champion about to be driven round the circuit by the reigning world champion. Perched on the back of the car is the son of a two time world champion.
Barry Lake sent me a copy of the picture Felix posted for him on 1st Jan on this thread. Apparantly Barry can't see it on the thread. It's fine for me; is anybody else having trouble?
Tonino Ascari is dead in the Varese Hospital on the early morning of Sunday, August 24, of a heart-lung disease.
He was born on August 2nd 1942.
He was born on August 2nd 1942.
A full listing of races entered and driven by Antonio (Tonino) Ascari between May 1964 and June 1966 can be found in Cesare De Agostini's book 'ASCARI Un Mito Italiano'. His last event seems to have been the 1966 Preddapio-Rocca delle Caminate in Salita in which he was classified 5th in the Formula 3 category with a Lotus 22-Ford entered by the Scuderia Tazio Nuvolari. I also seem to remember reading that Alberto Ascari arranged for Antonio to serve as an apprentice with Jaguar in Coventry.
I believe there was (is?) a law in Italy from the fascist era forbidding sons taking their father's name.
Sad news! 
Thanks, Alessandro, for remembering him!
Thanks, Alessandro, for remembering him!
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