I've seen Barrie like that on the road!!!

Rear wheel drive cars were a great deal more fun to watch.

Especially when they have more power than grip

RL

More importantly they are a great deal more fun to drive and I would a damn sight sooner sort out oversteer than terminal understeer.

Brilliant pics! Quite wide wheels for a group 1 (sic) car...

For the sake of historians everywhere, whoever made the decision to allow the British Championship to be called "Group 1" (when it was well beyond FIA Gp1 and even became known colloquially as Gp 1.5) should be shot!
Even more incredulously, some members of another forum elsewhere, that thinks a lot of itself on the historical front, once became thoroughly offensive at simple attempts to make them accept that it wasn't true Gp1.

Back in the day, I remember seeing saloons that appeared almost standard, that is to say, taped over headlamps and hubcaps removed (remember them?) in fact the early ETC rounds looked almost Standard, in '63/64. Also the Group 1.5 was based on the Belgian Trophee L'Avener (excuse spelling) and I think it appeared around '74/75?

Yep, touring cars looked pretty standard until group 5 in 1968 (1966 in Britain) and even then some of the cars looked pretty standard. Group 2/1970 changed that.
The Belgian/Avenir format was called "Group 1 Francorchamps" or Group 1,5; from th eoutside they looked liked the group 2 cars from that period.
The "group 1B" as I prefer to call it, the Group 1 format with some extras like blueprinting and wider wheels but no bodywork modifications, started out in Britain and spread over Europe after 1975/76; it was used in any case in France, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands - of course, each country used its own interpretation (Belgium and France allowed front spoilers, for instance) which made scrutenering in Spa a nightmare.
Group A did away with that and disallowed the homologated extra's which had made the Escort and Capri competitive.

Of course looking standard and being standard were very different. Very standard-looking Lotus Cortinas in Gp2 had aluminium panels and magnesium transmission casings. In fact I think it was only in 1972 that lighweight panels were forced out of FIA Gp2? I certainly prefer standard looking bodywork but I guess aero was not understood in those days.
A parallel problem was that BMC Special Tuning Department had been selling aluminium Mini doors direct for less than the price of standard steel ones from dealers...until the non-motorsport trade realised and orders suddenly went through the roof...

In MFQ 17 the 1963 July meeting at Elvington there was a Lotus Cortina (must have been almost a new car then ) road registered 1UB being made ready by a very distinguished looking owner wearing brogues and a tie, he seemed to start the BRSCC saloon race from the 3rd row, I wondered who it was ?

I agree totally, the cars looked better, had a good degree of suspension and spectators could easily relate to cars that they drove to the meeting, not so these days.

To be fair, the production Lotus Cortina (at least the first 1000) also had these features did they not? But the production car didn't produce the 150 bhp of the works cars

The first Gp2 homologation would have been under the Appendix J that applied up to 31.12.65. and, as quoted above, required lightweight panels to be on all production cars. Did it cover mag g/box & diff casings, or was that already under "homologated options" then?
From 1.1.66. (which included the infamous 66 Monte Carlo Rally) and up to, I think, 31.12.71. the new Appendix J Gp2 allowed lightweight panels not on the production car to be homologated. Presumably it was this change that snookered the 65-winning Alan Mann cars in the 66 ETC (by allowing BMW, Alfa etc to homologate much lighter weight cars)?
The new Gp 1, I'm pretty sure, didn't. Quite apart from the 5000 in a year Gp1 production requirement (Lotus Cortina, yeah, right...), I can't believe the Gp1 Lotus Cortina was that quick on snow without an LSD either.....

Agreed, my Cortina regularly used to refuse to move on the damp grass of South Bank.....a slipper was essential, perhaps it was just a more innocent age

Come to think of it, your knowledge on the regulations is very good, how on earth can you quote verbatim, do you still have all of the RAC Blue Books year referring?

Not RAC matters, just FIA regs. Like a lot on here, I'm sure knowing the latest FIA regs was a more interesting subject to study than most school home work. Later on, only two kinds of people really get to "live" Appendix J - the manufacturer's homologation expert (who would cover works car specs and advise any works-supported teams) and all the private entrants of the same car model, who need to know it for when they are confronted by the sort of scrutineer referred to above in the Bathurst/Sierra story.
Actually, that's not stricly true that there was no RAC involvement. In those days, as far as I know, National sporting bodies "signed-off" homologation papers being submitted to the FIA/CSI without any regular independent check of the figures eg. either by them or other manufacturers' or FIA representatives.

Historic Apendix J details are actually on line (don't have link to hand) on the FIA web site but there needs to be a "health warning" for historians that not every year is quoted and changes (like light weight panels, I think) cannot always be tracked down to the actual year of change, only the next full update year quoted.
Getting a bit OT now, I guess.

1975. Some contenders from the various Production Saloon Championships of that year

Derrick Brunt leads John Brindley

The aforementioned Marc Smith hounded by Gerry Marshall

GDR Marshall at ease with the challenge - how he is missed

Radio 1 disc jockey Noel Edmonds

Rock drummer Cozy Powell

Tony Lanfranchi

Long-time racer and rallyist Peter Jopp

The lovely Wendy Markey and her Mazda

Brilliant as ever Alan.. Thanks and a Happy New Year
Rob

Thanks Alan, the variety of cars, FWD,RWD, Rotary,V6's, SOHC,DOHC, Pushrods, the BTCC are now nearly all FWD and 2 litre....... variety is definitely the spice of life
It just happens that Gerald is in the usual tailout stance!

Looks like a neat corner to watch or officiate from....where is it Alan?

BTW I have previously mentioned "Mini goes Racing"....1961-1967...produced by PP Video Productions Herefordshire.....highly recommended!!!

All from Oulton Park, GTB - the first four are from the outside of Lodge Corner, the remainder from the outside of the dip, and rise, that follows on from Lodge Corner, known as Deer Leap.

From the first one Alan, I see the Camaros are just holding off the Simca Rallye, bet it wouldn't be long before the latter blasted past 'em though ! Neville Knight was it, or Simon Kirkby maybe?

great spectacle from truly weird handling cars...none but the brave!

I think this has appeared on TNF before, but it proves that Alan Cox is not the only man whose loft is awash with shots of Peter Jürgens's Austin A40. This is from a special saloon race at Oulton Park, June 24 1978.




And here's one I prepared earlier - May 23 1976, at Longridge, to be precise. I'll throw this open as a quiz, although Messrs Cox and Scanlon should probably be barred on the grounds of being, like me, irreversibly north-western.

Answers on an electronic postcard, please.

And there's more...



They say every picture tells a story - and this one certainly does. On the surface it's just Tom Walkinshaw leading Chris Craft through Paddock during the 1978 British GP support race, but Pentax was running a 'win a car competition' that season. I spent a fair bit of time trying to get a decent shot of Walkinshaw at Lodge Corner, my natural habitat, but snapped this when the many heads in front of me parted at an opportune moment - I was quite a long way back on the grass bank, using one of my professional photographer dad's cast-off 500mm lenses.

The pic was duly submitted (by my father, who became tired of my lethargy when it came to sticking things in envelopes)... and a few weeks later I received a phone call to say that I was one of the prize winners, although full details would only be announced at the official ceremony. With a BMW 316 apparently within my 17-year-old grasp, I then went out and failed my driving test, partly through overconfidence but mostly through crossing my hands on the wheel while threading mum's Renault 5TL through Sale town centre.

About a week later I attended the Pentax bash and they began by announcing the runners-up in no particular order. Eventually, there were just two shots to be unveiled - those of the final runner-up and the winner. And one was mine. Naturally, that came up next and the BMW went elsewhere - ironically to a bloke who took his shot at Lodge. I went away happily enough, though, with a Pentax body and a stack of lenses.

It wasn't until the mid-1990s that I learned my shot had initially been selected as the winner. My parents were told... and it all hinged on how I performed in the aforementioned driving test. Pentax didn't want the car to go to someone without a full licence. When they called to check the outcome, my mum, honest as mothers are wont to be, cheerfully told them I'd failed. The car went elsewhere, although had it come my way I'd doubtless have bent it so it was probably the correct call. Mr & Mrs A kept such info shielded for a remarkably long time.

In the meantime, here are a few more snapshots from the past.



Derek Bell leads Dieter Quester and René Metge during the 1978 British GP support race.



David da Costa, Martin Brundle, Rex Greenslade and Mike Wilds from the same event.



Capri heaven... Brian Muir (22), Andy Rouse (12) and Vince Woodman.



And finally, from October 1978, Gerry Marshall taking Lodge Corner as it should always be taken.

Great shots, Simon. Monsieur Metge seems to have grasped the secret of Paddock in what must have been his only visit to Brands(?)

Sorry to disappoint you - I don't recognise your Longridge candidate. I'm certain some other Northern TNFers will be able to come up with the solution........

OK - it's a mk3 Cortina (yes, you knew that bit , didn't you?), powered by no less than a 4.7 litre Ford V8 and driven by one Alistair Thompson. Also seen at Croft at around the same time. Do I win a prize? It doesn't have to be a BMW 316.

No, I definitely didn't recall that particular Mk 3 Cortina..

Ian

Correct on most counts, I believe, but Alistair Thompson wasn't the Cortina's only driver. On this occasion it was being driven by the other half of the partnership.

No BMW 316s on offer, sadly, although I have just discovered a signed shot of Peter Jürgens that I could send to anyone who might treasure such a memento.

T'other half was David Taylor. Ah, good old "research"....

My compliments to Ian on his knowledge of ungainly Mk3 Cortinas. This competition is now closed.

Do I win anything Simon, for adding it was based on a Williams/Iso Marlboro FX3 F1 car - or parts of the latter anyway. Dr Thompson reced it in 1982 at a Mallory Libre in its F1 guise, on at least 1 occasion, fitted, without any research, with a Chev F5000 motor.

I'll get my coat .......

Dan

All I can offer is the aforementioned signed shot of Peter Jürgens's A40 - a difficult thing to value because I have never seen one come up on eBay.

Sorry,
SA

Can't have been many parts, surely Dan? The engine in the Cortina appears to be at t'other end

Suspension parts only, I would guess. If anything at all. Really, it looks as though it was constructed mainly from angle iron and scaffolding tube.

You're a cruel man David !!

The Cortina was featured in C&CC Magazine in 1982, complete with pics of cast-off ISO-Marlboro bits, like the air box. One of its builders was a medical man, and the article explained how he kept doing house calls to a patient who was a pensioned welder, until said patient was well enough to perform the required welding on the car. From memory, it used the Cortina shell but with chunks of sheet steel hacked about, and tubular steel sub-frames welded into the structure. It used the Williams suspension front and rear, iirc, with the rear-mounted transaxle and a very short propellor shaft from the front-mounted Chevy engine.
Very much a budget project then, but a lovely piece of history. Could not do much to-day with a ten-year-old F1 Williams...the watchdogs from the Williams Collection and/or the Donington Collection would be around to re-claim it pronto! And anyway, carbon fibre wishbones and metal matrix uprights to not lend themselves to a bit of crafty home modifying....and what about the software for the gearbox?

Here are a few pictures from the first meeting for which I was granted a track pass - Oulton Park (where else?!) 20th May 1978

John Homewood's fantastic Sunbeam Imp

Rupert Long's Diamond Imp leads Peter Jürgens Arden & Bull A40

Gordon Taylor's 1300 Mini leads Graham Wallwork's Magnum

"Gordon Taylor's 1300 Mini leads Graham Wallwork's Magnum "

Alan, was Graham Wallwork John Wallwork's son/brother etc? I recall the bearded JW featuring in early 60s Volvo ads. he had quite a good rallying career in the fisties and early 60s, IIRC.

Roger Lund.

And some more north-western iconography...



Derek Walker's customarily successful Fiat 850 Coupé going nowhere in the Longridge paddock.



Did anybody go to an Oulton Park meeting in the 1970s and not see Tony Sugden's Brook Hire Escort?



And they turned this into a sodding caravan park... David Winstanley leads Ian Harrison at Longridge - one circuit where you really didn't need a track pass - in 1976.

With reference to Mr Cox's estimable input, above, is that the Gordon Taylor who later raced with Knickers In Tins sponsorship?

And finally, for this evening's bygone curio, who can identify the driver of this Datsun Cherry special saloon, captured at Oulton Park in 1977?




I still have a signed photo of Peter Jürgens to give away as a prize, but there doesn't appear to be much demand...

A great set of pictures Simon, I was at the Grand Prix and watched from.....halfway down Paddock, great to see these shots, especially Muir and Rouse, although the Capris never sounded too great, they were always great to watch. We also used to see Tony Sugden's Brook Hire Liverpool car in Kent on occassions and a great deal of Gerry (yet anotyher great photo!)

Roger
Johnny Wallwork's son (only I think) was Barry, he used to waft around in a Volvo P1800 registered AP1800. John's personal car for a long time was an Alfa 1900 registered WVM 8, I am sure of this because my Minor was WVM 7 and we were once together in a traffic jam in Manchester
John

Yes, Gordon Taylor did race the Knickers in Tins Mini - it has been mentioned before on TNF, but no-one has yet posted a photo.

Finally, another from the meeting of 20/5/78 - Alan Minshaw's DAF-on-steroids

Could it be Martin Pearson? I shall graciously decline the offer of your signed A40 pic.

Pretty sure it is Martin Pearson, he hailed from Bournemouth/Dorset IIRC. I belive the car was a Dutch built Han Tjan one, Janspeed?? Looked very nice, but not completely competitive with the BDA Minis and Escorts in the 1300 class.

The Walker Fiat didn't get out of the NorthWest much did it? I only ever saw it at Mallory once, and it won easily, Easter Monday 1975. Strange, 'cos when Derek W replaced it with his Escort and then Skoda, he seemed to travel nationally.

It is indeed Martin Pearson. If you look closely you can just pick out a significant clue on the Cherry's roof - his name runs along most of its length, a detail I failed to spot until Mrs A pointed it out...

Don't recall seeing this car in action all that often. Pearson also once used a Sunny in a Longridge rallycross. I have a pic, but it's so blurred that it could just as easily be a Routemaster bus.

I used to love watching the iconic saloons of the period - Nick Whiting's Escort, Rob Mason's Stiletto, Ginger Marshall's Mini Countryman/Reliant Kitten, anything with the other G Marshall at the wheel - but the more obscure stuff such as this retains an indelible fascination (for me, at least).

On which note, does anyone have pictures of Andrew Talbot's Triumph Herald?

Still on a North Western note, and nothing to do with saloons, but I'm not starting a separate thread for this: can anyone shed any light on the Le Riche GT, a front engined car, piloted by one Kenneth B Le Riche and seen at Oulton in the late 60s/early 70s? Was it a home built special, or based on something else?

Blimey, this thread has brought some memories back! A feverish rush upstairs to my stash of mildew-scented 1970s Thruxton programmes reveals that Martin Pearson and his Datsun Cherry Janspeed actually finished 2nd in the 1977 Forward Trust Special Saloon (Over 1000cc) Championship, behind the inevitable Peter Baldwin. They were also 1st and 2nd in the 1001-1300cc class, with Nick Whiting's 3.4 Escort GA taking the over 2500cc class and Rob Mason's Stiletto winning the 1301-2500cc battle (by one point from Tony Sugden's Escort).

Apart from Pearson's, there was another Datsun in the championship finale at Thruxton: Alec Poole had a Janspeed Datsun Coupe that, by dint of being listed as 1301cc, was in Class B with only future F3 backmarker Geoff Janes's Vauxhall Firenza as opposition. Poole qualified it on the front row alongside Whiting and Gerry Marshall (in Baby Bertha), but doesn't appear to have finished the race, because my 10-year-old's scrawl has only Janes as a finisher in the class. Wonder what happened to that particular Datsun...

As far as pics of the old curios are concerned, how about one of Roger Turner's Satra Motors Lada, which wrapped up the 1500cc class in the Britax Production Saloon Car Championship on the same day? I'm sure Simon or Alan must have one somewhere!

I can picture the Le Riche GT, Ian, which was, I seem to recall, based on a Lotus 11. Sorry, but I don't think I ever took a snap of it.

I struggled manfully to resist noticing, or taking pictures of racing Ladas, Marcus, so can't satisfy your curious desire to relive the experience

John Webb used to race one also, it looked like the Ark Royal around Paddock