Although I have some real reservations about lists like this, especially when they mix current and former/inactive drivers, I thought that it wasn't an entire waste of time since it did open the door to some of the earlier drivers completely ignored by the F1Magazine list which only looked at the WDC events.

100) Han Stuck Snr
99) Rubens Barrichello
98) Phillipe Etancelin
97) Albert Clement
96) Stewart Lewis-Evans
95) Patrick Depailler
94) Giuseppe Campari
93) Rene de Knyff
92) Elio de Angelis
91) Wolfie Von Trips
90) Gerhard Berger
89) Kenelm Lee Guinness
88) Denny Hulme
87) Christian Lautenshlager
86) Jo Siffert
85) Luigi Villoresi
84) jean Behra
83) Jean Alesi
82) Ricardo Rodriguez
81) Louis Renault
80) David Coulthard
79) John Watson
78) Vincezo Lancia
77) Phil Hill
76) Tony Brise
75) Carlos Pace
74) Louis Wagner
73) Peter Revson
72) Graham Hill
71) Fernand Charron
70) Jules Goux
69) Robert Benoist
68) Giulio Masetti
67) Peter Collins
66) Damon Hill
65) Hermann Lang
64) Tom Pryce
63) Rene Arnoux
62) Jack Brabham
61) Henry Seagrave
60) Francois Cevert
59) Giuseppe Farina
58) Mike Hawthorn
57) Andre Boillit
56) Louis Chiron
55) Richard Seaman
54) Jody Scheckter
53) Arthur Duray
52) Emmo Fittipaldi
51) Victor Hemery
50) Mario Andretti
49) Luigi Fagioli
48) Jacky Ickx
47) Tommy Milton
46) Nelson Piquet
45) Jacques Villeneuve
44) Keke Rosberg
43) Ralph de Palma
42) James Hunt
41) Alan Jones
40) John Surtees
39) Fernand Gabriel
38) Carlos Reutemann
37) Mika Hakkinen
36) Didier Pironi
35) Stefan Bellof
34) Dan Gurney
33) Marcel Renault
32) Tony Brooks
31) Ronnie Peterson
30) Frolian Gonzalez
29) Chris Amon
28) Jimmy Murphy
27) Archie Scott Brown
26) David Bruce-Brown
25) Pedro Rodriguez
24) Raymond Sommer
23) Guy Moll
22) Antonio Ascari
21) Jochen Rindt

#20 Nigel Mansell
#19 Niki Lauda
#18 Leon Thery
#17 Felice Nazzaro
#16 Alberto Ascari
#15 Jackie Stewart
#14 Pietro Bordino
#13 Alain Prost
#12 Achille Varzi
#11 Rudolf Carraciola
#10 Stirling Moss
#9 Jean Pierre Wimille
#8 Georges Boillot
#7 Micheal Schumacher
#6 Juan Manuel Fangio
#5 Jim Clark
#4 Ayrton Senna

#3 Bernd Rosemeyer


#2 Gilles Villeneuve


and last but not least
#1 Tazio Nuvolari





------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Yeah, I think this list was one of the worst and most subjective lists I have ever seen. However, it does have some credibility in certain areas and I have to at least give the author some credit for attempting to produce such a list. Several pre-war drivers got much needed recognition.

Here is a breakdown of how this author would rank drivers from pre-war and post-war drivers if they were separated out.

Post-War
1) Gilles Villeneuve
2) Ayrton Senna
3) Jim Clark
4) Juan Manuel Fangio
5) Michael Schumacher
6) Stirling Moss
7) Alain Prost
8) Jackie Stewart
9) Alberto Ascari
10) Niki Lauda
11) Nigel Mansell
12) Jochen Rindt
13) Pedro Rodriquez<-------?
14) Chris Amon<--------?
15) Frolian Gonzalez<---?Underrated but..
16) Ronnie Peterson
17) Tony Brooks
18) Dan Gurney
19) Stefan Bellof<----?
20) Didier Pironi
21) Mika Hakkinen
22) Carlos Reutemann
23) John Surtes
24) Alan Jones
25) James Hunt
26) Keke Rosberg
27) Jacques Villeneuve<--------!
28) Nelson Piquet<--------!
29) Jacky Ickx
30) Mario Andretti<--------!!!!#@*@+!
31) Emerson Fittipaldi<-------!
32) Jody Scheckter
33) Mike Hawthorn
34) Giuseppe Farina
35) Francois Cevert
36) Jack Brabham<---------!!
37) Rene Arnoux
38) Tom Pryce
39) Damon Hill<---------!
40) Peter Collins
41) Graham Hill<----------!!!
42) Peter Revson
43) Carlos Pace
44) Tony Brise
45) Phil Hill
46) John Watson
47) David Coulthard
48) Ricardo Rodriguez
49) Jean Alesi
50) Jean Behra

Pre-War
1) Tazio Nuvolari
2) Berned Rosemeyer
3) Georges Boillot
4) Jean-Pierre Wimille
5) Rudolf Carraciola<--------!!
6) Achille Varzi
7) Pietro Bordino
8) Felice Nazzaro
9) Leon Thery
10) Antonio Ascari
11) Guy Moll
12) Raymond Sommer
13) David Bruce-Brown
14) Archie Scott Brown
15) Jimmy Murphy
16) Marcel Renault
17) Fernand Gabriel
18) Ralph de Palma
19) Tommy Milton
20) Luigi Fagioli
21) Victor Hemery
22) Arthur Duray
23) Richard Seaman
24) Louis Chiron<-------!!!!
25) Andre Boillit
26) Henry Seagrave
27) Hermann Lang
28) Giulio Masetti
29) Robert Benoist
30) Jules Goux
31) Fernand Charron
32) Louis Wagner
33) Vincezo Lancia
34) Louis Renault
35) Luigi Villoresi

Hopefully, this breakdown will shed light on how poorly this author evaluated some drivers who competed in the same eras.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 11-13-1999).]

I would rather he just listed the drivers in alphabetical order then I think he did a wonderful job. Any fan of the history of this sport would do well to learn of the drivers that he/she is less familiar with.

In fact if there are any that you wish to see more info on I'm sure Don or I can dig up some tidbits.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Hmmm... Don, it seems to me that this is a straight lift of my "Top 20 drivers of the century - from Motorsport" in the "Readers Comments" section.... of course, there is the addition of the opening paragraph, and the subtraction of the happy faces, but everything else seems to have been left as it was....

Is this the sort of journalistic integrity that is the rule in the Nostalgia Forum?

tch tch tch... plagiarism - at your age...

You can mollify me by sending a token of your appreciation to my home address (oh, all of your pre-1991 Autocourses would do the trick nicely...)

Dennis,

I'd like to know about Jean Pierre Wimille
and Georges Boillot. It's surprising they are so high up and if you could perhaps shed light on their achievements, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,

Bira

Bira, if you type in a search on Atlas's reader comments section (try using Wimille and any post that associates my username), I scored the 1947, 1948 and 1949 seasons using F1 scoring system that was used in 1950-57 and I made a case for why these seasons weren't retroactively included into Formula One statistics since there weren't any real differences in seasons 1947-49 from Formula One's first few seasons. Why am I bringing this up?, because Jean-Pierre Wimille would have been champion in 1947 and 1948 using the scoring system that F1 used from 1950-57. There also were no champions crowned for these seasons. I think Jean-Pierre is a forgotten champion that we would have know much more about if the seasons 1947-49 were retroactively included into F1 history. However, I am not sure that he should rank in the top ten drivers of the century but definately in the top 20.

Wimille was killed in 1949 practicing for the Buenos Aires Grand Prix. He was born in Paris, France in 1908 and his racing career began in 1930 driving a T51 Bugatti in the French Grand Prix. He won several sports car races including the 1939 Le Mans 24hrs. His major Grand Pix wins were: 1936 French GP, 1947 Swiss GP, 1947 Belgian GP, 1948 French GP, and the 1948 Italian GP. All but one of his major Grand Prix wins were in an Alfa Romeo 158 except for the 1936 Grand Prix which he won in a Bugatti T57G. His career was interrupted due to war and shortened due to his tragic accident or else he may have been a more well known racing great. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of information about him as I have tried to find more. Even Dennis David has had trouble finding information Wimille.

There's a short bio on Wimille in a fairly cheesy book called "Formula One Legends" by Doug Nye...

Bruce, You should have been credited for the thread but brain and fingers not in synch as usual and I to take a soccer match for someone this afternoon so I was out the door soon afterwards being as disorganized as usual...




------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Jean-Pierre Wimille was born in Paris, in 1908. His father was motoring correspondent for the Petit Parisien newspaper. He made his Grand Prix debut in 1930, at the French Grand Prix in Pau but mechanical trouble forced him to retire. His appetite now wetted he resolved to continue racing. Except for 2 victories in 1932, Oran and Lorraine, and the GP of Algeria in 1934 he was handicapped by the growing lack of a competitive Bugatti Grand Prix car. With the domination of the German teams in the latter half of the pre-war decade he concentrated on sports cars where he had more success. Winning the French Grand Prix of 1936 which was limited to sports cars and then the 24 Hours of LeMans twice in 1937 and 39.

Wimille still longed to race a competitive car in a real Grand Prix. That opportunity almost came when he was reputedly offered a drive for Mercedes but decided to turn it down for political reasons. During this time Wimille's driving was marked with definite wildness quite different from his post-war smoothness.

When war came he joined the French Resistance, at one point just escaping capture by the Gestapo by jumping from a window and hiding in a nearby stream. After the war a more mature Wimille re-started his career as soon as possible. That opportunity came at a series of races held at the Bois de Boulogne, Paris on 9 September 1945. One of the races, the Coupe des Prisonniers saw a late entrant in the form of Jean-Pierre Wimille and a unique 4.7-litre Bugatti sprint car. Arriving too late for practice he was forced to start from the rear of the grid. Unfortunately for the others it wasn't far enough back as he soon charged through the field to take the victory, racing had returned to Europe. His driving, once hot headed and prone to accident was now recognized as second to none. He became a hero to countless up and coming drivers including no less than Fangio himself.

Desperate to make up for the lost years he entered every event possible. Practicing for a minor event in South America he was blinded by the son and crashed fatally, depriving the world of its first true World Champion when the title was instituted in 1950.

That's Wimille on the left.


Wimille is third from the left.


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/



[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 11-14-1999).]

thanks both

Joe Fan,
With the list of your top drivers post war, I was under the impresssion(as I read you stating such), that you thought Schumacher was better than Senna. But I see in your list that you have Senna ahead of Schuey.

I am not looking to dispute as to who is the better driver between the two, I am just curious as to when and why you changed your mind.

Nik, I haven't changed my mind. That list above is not my list, it is the Motorsport writer's list with a twist. I took his rankings and then separated the drivers out into two categories: pre and post war.

Since I had Peter Miller's book out anyway, I looked up Wimille. Miller has an appeddix where he lists, with some biographical information, drivers who were killed from '46-'63. Dennis David has already given a pretty good short bio on Wilmille. I add this because it sheds more light on his fatal accident: "Son of a Paris newspaper owner. Possibly greatest driver of all time. Won Le Mans, 1937(Robert Benoist) and 1939(Pierre Veyron). Calm, tactician with passion for racing, was mentor of Fangio. His Simca crashed into tree avoiding woman at 6:00 a.m. practice. Died of a fractured skull."



[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-14-1999).]

Georges Boillot


Grand Prix racing was only in its third year when Mercedes did the unthinkable and won the French Grand Prix in 1908. France was stunned and turned its back on Grand Prix racing preferring to concentrate on Voiturette racing. In 1912 the Grand Prix was revived first at Dieppe where Georges Boillot won in a Peugeot then in the following year at Amiens where Boillot again won. His success and the manner in which it was achieved coupled with his personal flamboyance captured the imagination of France. It can be said that he was the first Grand Prix star but his greatest race was one he did not win.

With the specter of war descending upon Europe the 1914 Grand Prix of France was held on the 23-mile long Lyon-Givors circuit. As in 1908 the French were the favorites, first among favorites being Boillot. The white cars of Mercedes were once again entered this time five strong. Led by their 1908 winner Lautenschlager. The Germans were immaculate in their preparation and team tactics were used to wear down the competition until there was only Boillot. He alone held out against these new barbarians at the gate. Boillot tried every trick that he new driving his car beyond what it was capable of delivering. Sandwiched between the three remaining Mercedes his race ended with a broken car but more importantly an un-broken spirit.

With Boillot’s fame and connections he could easily have sat out the war as a chauffeur but he would have none of that. He became a pilot and took the fight to the Germans once again. On May 21, 1916 the Champion of France was shot down over the battlefield of Verdun.


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

You know I was just looking at this list and if he had limited it to only the top 20 I would have had a lot more respect for the job he did but the following make no sense to me.

100) Han Stuck Snr
94) Giuseppe Campari
77) Phil Hill
65) Hermann Lang
56) Louis Chiron
55) Richard Seaman
50) Mario Andretti
40) John Surtees


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

That's the problem with lists like this...

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

There is a lot of driver rankings I don't understand that I could go on for days and prove with stats that driver B is ranked ahead of driver A, and driver A handed driver B his lunch at the same team driving the same types of cars. The major one that I can't understand is why Stefan Bellof is ranked so high when he won no races in 20 starts. I know he was a promising driver who got killed but why so high based upon extrapolation of big "ifs."

Also I know Gilles Villeneuve was a great driver but 2nd all-time? He was killed when he was 32 so it wasn't like he was killed entering his prime. There were quite a few drivers who were phenomenal right out of the shoot at a much earlier age than Gilles. To be ranked that highly, you must have been awesome right out of shoot.

Joe - He was awesome out of the shoot but for one reason or another he did not have an easy path. His big break I think was the F3 race at Monaco where he put some F1 drivers including Hunt to shame. As far as car control I would put him right there with Nuvolari. But overall I would rank him lower with this caveat. He was actually still getting better as an all-around driver when he died!

Let me tell you something when other drivers start creating legends about someone that they are actually competing against, a legend in their own time so to speak then you have something really special. When a driver gets in a car he must feel that he can beat anyone. Well with Villeneuve, almost to a man the other drivers knew that they could not beat him in equal cars. One day during practice it was raining heavily only a few drivers ventured to go out. Scheckter was one of them; he would later state that he was scared shitless. There was another driver out on the track doing fantastic power slides, his engine making the craziest noises as he would lose and regain grip on that wet track. The other drivers just looked at each other and traded nervous grins because they all knew who it was that was out there.



------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

As I've stated before, the ORDER of the list exasperated me. It seemed to give emphasis on potential, and punish the guys who really delivered. Tony Brise ahead of Graham Hill? Tony Brise on the list at all? Stephan Bellof, if he made the list at all, should have been in the bottom ten. Potential is wonderful, but all-time ratings should be based on achievement.

The most egregious example is Gilles Villeneuve. He raced in 67 races, won 6, only placed in the top six in the WDC once, and that second. People go on and on about how blazingly fast he was, but all I saw was a wild man, even more out of control than Jochen Rindt, basically an accident waiting to happen.

Gilles raced in 67 GPs with 6 wins, 13 podium finishes, 2(!)poles and 8 fastest laps. Where is the speed? In his 66 race career, Stirling Moss won 16, finished on the podium 24 times, had 16 poles and 19 fastest laps!!! Yet he ranked lower than Villeneuve.

A guy that Gilles really compares to is Gerhard Berger, who in his first 68 races had 4 wins, 10, podia, 4 poles, and 8 fastest laps. That's reasonably close, yet no one I know considers Gerhard one of the elite all-time drivers. Very good on his day, but not great overall. And that, I'm afraid, is how I see Gilles Villeneuve. Awesome on a few days when it all went right, entertaining all of the time (if you like that sort of death-defying driving), but ultimately nowhere near great in the big scheme of things.

I cooked up a rating system that looks at career achievement, which I will gladly share if anyone is interested. The results surprised even me. But Gilles came out about right where I thought he should: 51st in the modern era.

Gilles is worshipped on this site, and I know I'm going to be reviled for saying what I've said. But I think when you strip away the romance, I have the facts and history with me. Understand, I never had anything against the guy, I just don't think he belongs on the same page with the great ones. In fact, I think history will find Jaques dwarfing his father.

[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-19-1999).]

Please forgive me if I seemed overly combative in the previous post. A bad headache does that to me. I don't mean to slag off Gilles, and I recognise that the definition of greatness is intensely personal. I was reacting more to the list, and how it seemed to devalue achievement over potential. Gilles was a spectacular driver, in all of its senses. But spectacular drivers almost always died in that era, because no one could gamble corner after corner without losing the bet eventually. And looking at his career objectively, I don't see where it can be said to be a great one.

Fast - There is a bias I agree but I also know that he was magic. My own personal favorites were Graham Hill and Rudolf Caracciola neither as flashy as some of their contemporaries. I could talk forever on Caracciola.

Hey have you read Conte Maggi's Mille Miglia by Peter Miller?


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Obviously, these are subjective, open to debate, ultimately useless yaddayaddayadda, but they do pass the time.

So what do you all think of Mario at #30 on the list Joe did for us. I'm assuming Joe's symbolic cursing meant he felt Mario should have been ranked higher; that was my gut reaction as well. The guy has driven everything he climbed into exceedingly well; or is that part of the problem?

I don't know enough about the history of the sport to make a good argument as to why he was/wasn't so great. So I'm curious how the experts on this board see Mario in the grand sweep of F1/racing history.

Dennis-- Haven't read that one because I've never found a copy. I agree with you about Caracciola! In fact, I put him on my ten best list over in the Reader's Comments section a week or two ago. I agree with Don that good bios need to be done on guys like Rudi. Being a big admirer of Fearless John Surtees, I was interested to learn that Mrs. Caracciola said that John's driving reminded her of her husband's more than anyone else she'd seen. What a compliment!

Fast One,

I posted something of the same nature that you have about GV several months ago and was villified mercilessly. Your post is much more articulate and well thought out though. My complements.
I think the compairison with Rindt is absolutely spot on. Jackie Stewart has said that a great driver is someone who has the focus and disipline as well as the speed to win several championships. I saw this in an article about greats of the past and the names Peterson and Villeneuve had come up. Perhaps JYS would agree with you. Nice post. It's nice to be somewhere we discuss GV without all the emotion. I hope we can discuss Peterson soon. He seems to get ignored on this BB which surprises me.

------------------
"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

There is a great biography on Caracciola and he co-wrote it!

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

With Gilles it's all emotion. He was truly magic but it is true he still was not a complete driver. But speed was there, was it ever!

We don't want any flames here, really, we're comparing fine wine with champagne. Can't go much wrong either way.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Statesidefan and Dennis--

Until this forum was openened I kept my opinions of GV to myself, because it was obvious that on the other side of the partition it would have just resulted in name calling and childish tantrums. Here I hope, it is possible to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the great and famous drivers with more intelligence and less emotion than one sees in the Reader's Comments area. I certainly wasn't trying to flame GV; hell, he didn't rate himself #2 all-time. I was really using him as an example of the serious problems I had with the ORDER of the list.

No one is going to quibble about a place or two, because it is all so subjective, but when a magazine rates Jochen Rindt substantially higher than Brabham, Gurney, Phil and Graham Hill, Surtees, Nino Farina, etc., I felt obliged to point out what I felt was a bias and a serious flaw in the list. After all, younger or more recent fans might take a list like this as gospel. Anyway, I'm glad at least one person liked it, and I hope no one else took it wrong or was offended. I DO have strong, and sometimes unorthodox, opinions, so always feel free to disagree. I'm here to learn as well, and theere are some folks around here from whom I can learn much.



[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-21-1999).]

Okay - so how do you rate J. Hall - drove gran prix cars with little success. But he drove cars that he designed which makes him rather unique. As far as I know, B. McLaren and J. Brabham didn't do the cars that bore their names.

As to DC and the Penske Panzers - initially they delivered power, bags of it! But Capt. Nice said that you couldn't get it to the ground. Mark went to Germany, to work on the car before it ever came to the states. So how do you rate a driver that only wins in the best of cars - a car which is the best of cars only because of his work?

I knew a guy who used to claim that 95% of racing is in the preparation. Unfortunately, truly good preparation results in a "dominant car" - it's reliable, good handling. Now the guy who did all that testing, all that setup is seen as a driver who can only win with a dominant car. In essence, you penalize him for being more than just a "race car driver."

J. Stewart once mentioned that he watched J. Clark through a corner on his way to a pole and said that Clark wasn't even using all of the track. We've watched JV going to the dirt and it is worth watching but is it really any faster?

Fast I couldn't agree with you more. In no way did I think that you were flaming any driver. Actually I encourage you to express yourself!

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Oh no F - McLaren and Brabham were very much involved in the design and building of their cars. In fact the Coopers that Brabham drove to the World Championship could easliy have been call Brabhams. As years went by they had to delegate more but they were always right there in the garage working on the cars.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

DD,

Didn't Ron Tournec (spelling) do all of the design work for Jack?

F li--

I always had an enormous amount of respect fo Jim Hall. He was a good driver, albeit not one of the very fastest. His cars were things of beauty!! Many of the innovations that led to what we call "modern" racing cars were conceived by Jim Hall. In my mind, he's right up there with Colin Chapman as a designer. Perhaps not as successful, but even more innovative!

Mark Donohue I have come to admire greatly. He was truly one of the great driver/engineer combinations ever in motor racing. I was not a fan at the time, but have become one as I've grown older and wiser. He was a smooth, efficient driver...never wild, never doing more than it took to win. He was in many ways like Black Jack Brabham, who could also develop and set up a car, and drive very fast indeed without being out of control for a moment.

Jim Clark is incredibly interesting, because here is a guy who really was never himself very knowledgable about the cars he drove in the sense that Hall or Donohue were. Yet he and Chapman developed the perfect symbiotic relationship: Clark could drive fast, consistent laps, and describe to Chapman what was going on with the car in his own way, and Chapman always seemed to be able to interpret what Jimmy said, and translate it into engineering terms that enabled him to fix whatever was wrong. Clark might never have been as effective on any other team, and Chapman never developed the same relationship with any other driver, but as a PAIR, they were as formidable as any combination in history.

Jimmy used to be pretty terrified when he drove, a fact which many people forget. Spa scred him to death, yet he dominated that track absolutely. Chapman used to say that the perfect car fell apart just as it crossed the finish line! Alot of folks quipped that it was a good thing Jimmy didn't understand how flimsey the Lotuses were, or he would have never driven them so fast!!!

I think Jimmy got better with the technical aspects of the cars before he died, but he was almost certainly the weakest technically of the great drivers of the '60's.

It's true that Brabham formed a close partnership with Ron Tauranac. They would have some big fights about the car but each respected the other. As the cars became more complicated they had to better divide their labour but initially it was Jack as much as Ron that led the way with the cars.

"He didn't so much start working for us as just start working with us ... He just began coming in more often, and we got used to having him around. He acted as a kind of unpaid fitter-cum-welder-cum-driver - and he was bloody good at all of it..."
John Cooper

Douggie Johnson remembers him well: "...working quietly away on his own, welding-up his own chassis and building his Grand Prix car in one corner." ;-)

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Amongst "non-drivers" I had two heroes, Colin Chapman and Jim Hall. Both drove of course but the cars they created, wow! I always rooted for the Chaparrels and my favorite I think was their closed sports car. I remember a couple of drivers who considered it the greatest car that they ever drove. P. Hill I think it was. Will have to did it up. He was practicing at the Targa Florio and the crowd was getting to close. Afraid that they may damage the car he actuated that large spoiler and the crowd scattered!

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

Can anyone explain why Camille Jenatzy doesn't rate more highly on this list?I'm rather ignorant on the early days, but it was my impression that Jenatzy was motor racing's first real star driver.

Regarding the previous post,I'm a little surprised that they bothered to send a Chaparral to the Targa.They must have known that it would be relatively slow there and probably break within a lap or 2.The subject of big engined cars at the Targa Florio in the later years makes an interesting topic for discussion.There were some notable efforts made with Cobras, GT40s, Lola T70s and of course Giunti and Vaccarella's great 1970 drive in the 512S...I wonder if Porsche ever considered sending a 917 there?

[This message has been edited by Dr.DeDion (edited 11-26-1999).]

By accident, I clicked the wrong arrow and instead of the one for the next page I hit the one for the last page -- and I found this thread just sitting there, a forlorn reminder of how rather, ah, clueless we were back then in the ancient days of TNF when days would pass with scarcely a handful of posts being made and threads could stay on the front page for weeks. It is very clear that we were floundering to a large extent back then and trying to find our way -- not that we really had a clue what we were doing. There were days when I just tossed things out there in the hope that it would attract some interest -- and new forum members.

The driver listing is even more interesting years later since it serves as a reminder that an ordinal scheme for drivers or whatever is always going to be a poke in somebody's eye. I have always rather liked how Roger Ebert approached his "Great Movies" project -- they are not listed in order of "greatness" or even a suggestion that these are all the "great" movies, but simply that they are great movies and should be seen. The movies are listed in alphabetical order when listed on his web site or when placed in his books (two so far on the Great Movies). I think that it is safe to say that more than a few movbies have been rented or bought and then enjoyed because that they existed was brought to someone's attention.

As is mentioned in thread, had the list been presented in alphabetical order with some comments accompanying each name then there might have been less heartburn with the list itself.

There are few -- if any -- left from this thread still participating on TNF today, in part, because over 6 1/2 (and approaching 7) years is a very, very long time in forum years. It is rather like looking at a program for an event and realizing that everything and everyone starts off somewhere else....

I read the ‘100’ article(s) with interest at the time - not least for the additional perspective provided on the pre-1950 drivers included, and also for the non-standard photo selections, if I remember rightly. Of course there cannot be a definitive list, because every commentator has their own biased view, even if they don’t see it as such. When F1 Racing did their list, it was a compromise between the arguments of a whole panel of experts. This list was one man’s work. I think Alan Henry was the author for the top 100 racing drivers book, which has another opinion entirely - and a much wider scope. And then there was the 8W survey. Perhaps it would be interesting to review all these lists back to back.

I presume this particular list is Grand Prix specific. But how can you ignore someone’s achievements in other branches of the sport when you consider their overall ability, or potential. For instance, Stefan Bellof’s position may well be related to what was seen of him in sportscars, which perhaps gives a hint to what he might have done in the future. And if you have Gilles Villeneuve’s snowmobile skills in the back of your mind somewhere, perhaps that would lead to an elevated position in the list.

Having said all this, I would personally be more than interested in a list rating various drivers for the potential they were perceived to have. I’d like to see all the established (the most) successful guys left out of that one...

Don,
I'm one of the few that has remained on sine 1999. That is lifetime in terms of the web. TNF has made a lasting contribution to motoring history on many levels. Schmacher now would rate higher in light of his WDCs.

There are days when I drop in here that such a notion is cold comfort, indeed.... but Life goes on.