When and where did the practice of throwing a "full course caution" and sending out a Pace Car begin?
Was it in anyway linked to early TV coverage in the US and the need for "a word from our sponsors" in the same way that other sports suddenly had "time-out" ?
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Full Version: Pace Cars and Yellow Flags
Can't imagine they introduced potentially life-threatening accidents to satisfy the need for ad breaks, then again, nothing would surprise me in the World of TV!
Originally posted by Simpson RX1
Can't imagine they introduced potentially life-threatening accidents to satisfy the need for ad breaks, then again, nothing would surprise me in the World of TV!
Can't imagine they introduced potentially life-threatening accidents to satisfy the need for ad breaks, then again, nothing would surprise me in the World of TV!
I don't think I suggested that.....
I was thinking more along the lines of the imfamous "debris on the race track" excuse which, if you watch Nascar, usually means "this is a dull goddam race, let's close it up a bit?"
Races in general didn't often get stopped, even for fatalities, untill at least the mid 1970s. I think 1975 was the first time an F1 Grand Prix was red flagged and restarted and the first F1 pace car was tried in 1972-73 from memory, and quickly abandoned due to lap-scoring confusion.
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Races in general didn't often get stopped, even for fatalities, untill at least the mid 1970s. I think 1975 was the first time an F1 Grand Prix was red flagged and restarted and the first F1 pace car was tried in 1972-73 from memory, and quickly abandoned due to lap-scoring confusion.
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Races in general didn't often get stopped, even for fatalities, untill at least the mid 1970s. I think 1975 was the first time an F1 Grand Prix was red flagged and restarted and the first F1 pace car was tried in 1972-73 from memory, and quickly abandoned due to lap-scoring confusion.
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
If my memory serves me right, the first time a pace car could be seen in F1 was during the Canada GP in 1973. It caused a great confusion and when E. Fittipaldi was already celebrating the victory, the organization announced that the winner had been Peter Revson.
Spanish GP 1975 at Montjuich was red flagged after the terrible accident involving Stommelen and Pace during lap 26. Less than half of the GP laps. In 1971, during a non-championship race at Brands Hatch, the race was also stopped after only 15 laps due to the fatal accident suffered by Siffert.
I think 1975 was the first time an F1 Grand Prix was red flagged and restarted
1973 British GP was stopped to clear up the mess after the first lap shunt.
I can't remember a GP being stopped and restarted in 1975, Simon. Which one was it? Montjuich and Silverstone were red-flagged. Wasn't the Osterreichring, was it?
Originally posted by Twin Window
I can't remember a GP being stopped and restarted in 1975, Simon. Which one was it? Montjuich and Silverstone were red-flagged. Wasn't the Osterreichring, was it?
I can't remember a GP being stopped and restarted in 1975, Simon. Which one was it? Montjuich and Silverstone were red-flagged. Wasn't the Osterreichring, was it?
Actually I was thinking of 1973 and my fingers got carried away on the keys... British GP , the famous Jody Scheckter moment, was the one I had in mind, I think that was the first ever red flag in a world championship Grand Prix?
Actually 75 was a bad year wasn't it? So many incidents and so many rain affected races.
But I'm still wondering, where and when did the 'full course caution'/yellow flags/pace car situation first appear?
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
Something makes me think it was early-nineties for F1, but I could be miles out...
Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
When and where did the practice of throwing a "full course caution" and sending out a Pace Car begin?
Was it in anyway linked to early TV coverage in the US and the need for "a word from our sponsors" in the same way that other sports suddenly had "time-out" ?
When and where did the practice of throwing a "full course caution" and sending out a Pace Car begin?
Was it in anyway linked to early TV coverage in the US and the need for "a word from our sponsors" in the same way that other sports suddenly had "time-out" ?
Originally posted by Simpson RX1
Can't imagine they introduced potentially life-threatening accidents to satisfy the need for ad breaks, then again, nothing would surprise me in the World of TV!
Can't imagine they introduced potentially life-threatening accidents to satisfy the need for ad breaks, then again, nothing would surprise me in the World of TV!
Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
I don't think I suggested that.....
I was thinking more along the lines of the imfamous "debris on the race track" excuse which, if you watch Nascar, usually means "this is a dull goddam race, let's close it up a bit?"
I don't think I suggested that.....
I was thinking more along the lines of the imfamous "debris on the race track" excuse which, if you watch Nascar, usually means "this is a dull goddam race, let's close it up a bit?"
Methinks that some have read or listened too long to far too many of the Urban Legends which seem to percolate through here with little to no real thought as to whether or not they might or might not actually be true..... Since it involves NASCAR and/or oval racing, it seems natually assumed that even if they aren't guilty, they should be. Keep in mind that more than a few drivers have been injured and a few possibily killed, when caution flags were not thrown quickly enough (or at all in some cases) for debris on the track. There is a tendency to error on the side of the angels and toss out the caution flag when there is reason to believe that there is something on the track. Not to deny that such antics as described have not happened, but that they are the rare exception and not the rule. Incidentially, a popular story usually cited about Bill France, Senior or Junior according the source, tossing his Rolex out on the track to cause a caution is a total fabrication, an invention of a highly creative reporter which was "borrowed" by a number of others for their articles on NASCAR.
did the safety car for F1 come in around early 90's, certainlly was by the time we got to Imola 94, was it introduced at the beginning of that year?
Simon,
if you're interested in the history of Yellow flags and Pace Cars at Indy, I can look it up. I got a book somewhere in which something is written about it.
if you're interested in the history of Yellow flags and Pace Cars at Indy, I can look it up. I got a book somewhere in which something is written about it.
I think what Simon is after is the introduction of US track racing style full course yellows backed up by a pace car as opposed to 'traditional' road racing yellow flags and no overtaking at the accident scene and leave the rest to the drivers' discretion.
The full course yellow bunching of the field does look a trifle contrived on occasions. Think of greyhound racing and varying the speed of the hare; admittedly money rides on the result there.
The full course yellow bunching of the field does look a trifle contrived on occasions. Think of greyhound racing and varying the speed of the hare; admittedly money rides on the result there.
IIRC, the first use of the pace car during a caution period at the Indy 500 was in 1979. In F1, the Safety Car was adopted in 1992, it's first actual use (excluding Hungary 1992, where the boards came out, but the safety car didn't) was Brazil 1993.
Originally posted by Scribe06
Methinks that some have read or listened too long to far too many of the Urban Legends which seem to percolate through here with little to no real thought as to whether or not they might or might not actually be true..... Since it involves NASCAR and/or oval racing, it seems natually assumed that even if they aren't guilty, they should be. Keep in mind that more than a few drivers have been injured and a few possibily killed, when caution flags were not thrown quickly enough (or at all in some cases) for debris on the track. There is a tendency to error on the side of the angels and toss out the caution flag when there is reason to believe that there is something on the track. Not to deny that such antics as described have not happened, but that they are the rare exception and not the rule. Incidentially, a popular story usually cited about Bill France, Senior or Junior according the source, tossing his Rolex out on the track to cause a caution is a total fabrication, an invention of a highly creative reporter which was "borrowed" by a number of others for their articles on NASCAR.
Methinks that some have read or listened too long to far too many of the Urban Legends which seem to percolate through here with little to no real thought as to whether or not they might or might not actually be true..... Since it involves NASCAR and/or oval racing, it seems natually assumed that even if they aren't guilty, they should be. Keep in mind that more than a few drivers have been injured and a few possibily killed, when caution flags were not thrown quickly enough (or at all in some cases) for debris on the track. There is a tendency to error on the side of the angels and toss out the caution flag when there is reason to believe that there is something on the track. Not to deny that such antics as described have not happened, but that they are the rare exception and not the rule. Incidentially, a popular story usually cited about Bill France, Senior or Junior according the source, tossing his Rolex out on the track to cause a caution is a total fabrication, an invention of a highly creative reporter which was "borrowed" by a number of others for their articles on NASCAR.
Yes I guess we have all fallen for some of the folklore here (and NASCAR does seem to thrive on it's own brand of that) but never the less I'm sure we have all seen some obviously tedious races suddenly revitalised for a mysterious yellow or two.
But when did it all start???
Who invented the full course caution with pace car ? I
t's something almost all (or even every) major and most minor series now use. Was it really '79 before it appeared at the 500 ? I'm amazed. I know I have seen a 63 NASCAR film that mentions the race being faster than the previous year "as it's been caution free" Did pace car periods conicide with the arrival of NASCAR superspeedways in the late 50s perhaps?
Smon Lewis
www.simonlewis.com
There were pace cars used in NASCAR-sanctioned events during caution periods from the very start in the 1940s, but it was not until the early to mid-1950s that they system used today really began to evolve. The pace car was furnished by each individual track promoter and the competency and effectiveness of the pace car varied wildly as can be imagined. Long before the superspeedways became commonplace, the pace car was already a fixture on the stock car circuit.
USAC and the IMS were very late to the adoption of the pace car at Indianapolis. Prior to the introduction of the pace car during the caution periods they used lights by which the drivers were supposed to pace themselves during periods when the yellow flag was being shown.
USAC and the IMS were very late to the adoption of the pace car at Indianapolis. Prior to the introduction of the pace car during the caution periods they used lights by which the drivers were supposed to pace themselves during periods when the yellow flag was being shown.
I found this short article in the Jan 1993 New Zealand Auto News magazine about the introduction of a pace car for the 1993 Peter Jackson International Motor Racing Series in New Zealand for the first time. Series promoter Ian Gamble is quoted as saying "We are in the entertainment business, so the use of the Pace-car which closes up the field in longer races, gets rid of the often boring strung out processions, bringing the race back to life." Ken Smith was not amused.
Originally posted by WHITE
If my memory serves me right, the first time a pace car could be seen in F1 was during the Canada GP in 1973. It caused a great confusion and when E. Fittipaldi was already celebrating the victory, the organization announced that the winner had been Peter Revson.
If my memory serves me right, the first time a pace car could be seen in F1 was during the Canada GP in 1973. It caused a great confusion and when E. Fittipaldi was already celebrating the victory, the organization announced that the winner had been Peter Revson.
The first time the pace car was actually seen ontrack was at the earlier race in Austria. This was one of a number of safety measures implemented right after the German GP as a result of Zandvoort (the most recent and highly publicized of a number of serious incidents that had occurred during that season) and the measures included restricting future grids to 2 by 2.
A midsize Opel saloon did a couple of simulated runs using the full field on each practice day at the Osterreichring with IIRC Stewart and Fittipaldi nominated as the 'race leaders' for these trials. The pace car wasn't needed during the race.
I believe the driver had to be a professional. Anyone know who it was or have any more details?
Similarly the pace car must have been present at Monza. Any details on this?
After the Canadian fiasco, did the pace car even appear at Watkins Glen for the final race of the year?
There was a pace car at Bathurst in 1987, I only remember that because half the field overtook it going up mountain straight.
First F1 one actually used was Canada in 1973 as has been mentioned before.
First F1 one actually used was Canada in 1973 as has been mentioned before.
Originally posted by lofong
The first time the pace car was actually seen ontrack was at the earlier race in Austria. This was one of a number of safety measures implemented right after the German GP as a result of Zandvoort (the most recent and highly publicized of a number of serious incidents that had occurred during that season) and the measures included restricting future grids to 2 by 2.
A midsize Opel saloon did a couple of simulated runs using the full field on each practice day at the Osterreichring with IIRC Stewart and Fittipaldi nominated as the 'race leaders' for these trials. The pace car wasn't needed during the race.
I believe the driver had to be a professional. Anyone know who it was or have any more details?
Similarly the pace car must have been present at Monza. Any details on this?
After the Canadian fiasco, did the pace car even appear at Watkins Glen for the final race of the year?
The first time the pace car was actually seen ontrack was at the earlier race in Austria. This was one of a number of safety measures implemented right after the German GP as a result of Zandvoort (the most recent and highly publicized of a number of serious incidents that had occurred during that season) and the measures included restricting future grids to 2 by 2.
A midsize Opel saloon did a couple of simulated runs using the full field on each practice day at the Osterreichring with IIRC Stewart and Fittipaldi nominated as the 'race leaders' for these trials. The pace car wasn't needed during the race.
I believe the driver had to be a professional. Anyone know who it was or have any more details?
Similarly the pace car must have been present at Monza. Any details on this?
After the Canadian fiasco, did the pace car even appear at Watkins Glen for the final race of the year?
Rob
It was sometime in the late 90's(?) that the saftey car was used to start a GP. It was at Spa, I think, where it was raining very hard.
It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
Originally posted by stevewf1
...It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
...It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
...unless you count the regular farce that was a Monza start in the 70's when they used dummy-grids. Most of the field was still in motion when the flag dropped - with tragic results in 1978.
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
Originally posted by stevewf1
It was sometime in the late 90's(?) that the saftey car was used to start a GP. It was at Spa, I think, where it was raining very hard.
It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
It was sometime in the late 90's(?) that the saftey car was used to start a GP. It was at Spa, I think, where it was raining very hard.
It's the only time I remember there being an F1 rolling start.
Spa 2000
Brazil 2003 was a safety car start too
But who actually started the pace car/yellow flag business to begin with ?
NASCAR?
AAA?
Indianpolis Motor Speedway?
And when? I'm assuming postwar and probably coinciding with either commercial TV coverage or after some significant accident .
Any ideas?
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
NASCAR?
AAA?
Indianpolis Motor Speedway?
And when? I'm assuming postwar and probably coinciding with either commercial TV coverage or after some significant accident .
Any ideas?
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
I believe that the first time that the pace car was used in F-1, afte the practice in Austria and chaos of Canada, was in Interlagos in 1993, after the strong rain at the end of the main straight, where Prost crashed out, Suzuki acquaplaned at the main straight and Johnny Herbert almost gave the first podium to Lotous in a long time.
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