As I look at pictures of cars from say, 1970, I see many cars with very different numbers.

Like the BRM with Rodrigez won with at Spa, it had NO 1 on it I think, but Stewart was the champion in 69?

And I remember Seeing Jackie Stewarts Tyrrell with 3, 5, 6, and I think 9.

Why did they change the numbers around so much?

Race numbers had been decided by each race organizer separately, mostly in the sequence of the receipt of entries. Thefore very often the teams had successive numbers for their cars. Each race organizer handles his own system, very often only even numbers were taken (in order to avoid to 13?), and sometimes the list starts very high, e.g. at the GP Germany 1951 lowest # was 71.

One of Bernie's innovations in the 70's was the standardisation of team numbers for the entire season. Teams now carry the same number for at least one whole season, sometimes longer. The only trouble is they're too small to read! Bring back big white discs and Les Leston's stick on numbers - and while you're at it, white rectangles with driver's names in black (or turquois - I'm not fussy). You can see I hanker after 1966.

I think the reason was that odd numbers were reserved for the T cars and even numbers for the race cars. Expecially the Italian GP always used that system. The reason that the race numbers sometimes were high was often that several classes were raced that day with small classes having low numbers and the big classes high numbers.

Eric,
This would be the logic way to do it. But expensive space for sponsors decals would be lost.

The standardisation of numbers came in 1973, when the dwarf was still busy with his Brabham team, so one of the few rules in F1 for which we cannot blame him ...

By the way, what are "Les Leston's stick-on-numbers"? In historic motorsport today we use these nice self-adhering PVC foil numbers, optional in black or white, depending on car's colour, but how did they manage this in earlier times? Very early photos - up to the 20s - sometimes give the impression that the race numbers had been painted to the cars with some kind of easily removable medium, like i.e. chalk slurry, but already in the 30s these numbers had been very accuralety, like professional paint job, or even modern foils. However, PVC foils as far I know not invented then, and I also cannot believe that they re-painted the cars for every race, so what did they use??

I came across this thread the other day and it lit a recent memory. An old friend of mine, Doug Stokes, sent me a request to help some people who were trying to determine what number they should request for their race car.

They had gotten off on a tangent, if you will, and started looking at historical numbers.

This, then, is the exchange:

"Gurney always ran 48, no matter what he drove.
(Jim) Hall had 66, while Phil Hill ran 65 in the Can-Am.
Foyt...he's running IRL, so who cares...
Petty had 43.
88 belongs to Dale Jarret in NASCAR. Would be an easy number for scorers, as well as #60.
Stokes would know ALL of (Rick) Mears numbers...
Stokes used to race with 28.
Senna ran 12 with Lotus, and besides, the GP only numbers cars to 28 or so because of the size of the field.
How old is Scot? Your dad? Your mom? Your favorite classic car?"

Stokes sent me this request: "GIL: HELP THESE GUYS PICK A NUMBER FOR THEIR F/FORD."


Re: Gurney. Not so, the Ferrari and Lotus he drove for Arciero was number 69

Mears drove whatever number Penske assigned.

In most cases Phil Hill drove whatever number the entrant had assigned.

Foyt's lead car is number 14

In the U.S., Briggs Cunningham's lead driver was given number 60 (Phil Walters, Sherwood Johnston, Walt Hansgen). At Le Mans he took whatever number he was given.(Usually a low number, because Le Mans numbered the cars by engine capacity. Larger the engine lower the number)

In NASCAR the numbers are assigned or requested by the teams. If Dale Earnhardt left Richard Childress, the number 3 would not go with him! Number 88 was not the car number when Dale Jarrett drove for Joe Gibbs.

Penske and Donohue were 6 (Penske's choice?)

Anyone who drove for John Edgar drove the number 98

Pre BE (Bernie Ecclestone), Formula One racing numbers and formats were assigned by the race organizer. And in many cases, would change year by year. According to my sources, racing numbers were assigned based on the date of arrival of the entry from the factory. Therefore if Ferrari beat Maserati to the mail box, they would get the lower numbers. An added twist was whether the numbers would start with 1 and be sequentially (1-2-3-4) or even numbered (2-4-6-8) or if they would start in the teens. 1961's Grand Prix of France was like that. Hence the Ferraris had 14-16-18 for von Trips, Hill and Ginther. Backgrounds for the numbers were also decided by the organizer. Which is why photos from one race would show cars with a white roundel and a black number and a week or two weeks later the cars wouldn't have a white background and the number would be white.

Location such as canted to one side or the other or straight on. All of this was at the whim of the organizer. In many cases the organizers didn't tell the team the numbers they were assigned until they registered at the track. They would then offer the services of their resident sign painter. The ever efficient Mercedes guys had their own sign painter.

At the Grand Prix of France in 61, Porsche used black tape for their numbers which blew off of Gurney's car. That's why you only see one number on the front of his car at the finish behind Baghetti Ferrari. Baghetti was entered as a privateer which is why his Ferrari is numbered 50.

I was there at the Thillios Hairpin getting a sunburn!

FOCA and Ecclestones first move was to assign 1 and 2 to the team employing the reigning Formula One World Champion. The rest were decided on entrant's choice. The next step was to assign the number of the winning team to the last year's World Champion. 11 and 12 went to Lotus when Jody Scheckter won the championship. The following year Alan Jones, driving Williams number 27 won and Ferrari gained the number 27 and 28.

The current policy is based on points. Villeneuve wins the championship, Williams gets 1-2. Schumacher finishes second, Ferrari gets 3-4. If a team drops out. The team with the next highest points moves up. New teams are assigned the higher or last numbers in the set.

Oh yeah, World Champion retires from sport after winning. Car gets number 0.

Sorry you asked?

Gil Bouffard

With regards to "T-cars," of the time. T-cars were not numbered, but had a large "T" emblazoned on the car. This was in case a driver wrecked his car badly, they could wash the "T" off the car and give it to another driver for the race.

Gil Bouffard

I'll touch on just a few numbers...

Dan Gurney: though "48" ultimately came to be his "pet" number in his US racing, Jochen Rindt actually drove the first Eagle #48. It was at Indianapolis '67, where he was a part of a three-car AAR effort. Dan drove #74(dohc Ford)..Jerry Grant drove #42(dohc Ford)..and Jochen drove #48(Gurney-Eagle 305cid pushrod). Dan took the number on, for good, in Dec'67 at Riverside for the 300mi race which he won. From that point, until he retired at the end of '70, his team numbers were 48 & 42. When Bobby Unser became AAR's number-oe driver, in '71, they stopped using 48, and Bobby would use the "earned" number according to the previous years USAC Natl Championship placing. The team kept #42 for their other car, in '71. Then, 48 re-surfaced in '72 with Jerry Grant as Bobby's teammate. In '74, AAR went to a one-car team, and Bobby began using #48. They won the USAC Championship that year and could have used #1 for 1975, but instead stuck with #48. And so, it was #48 that wheeled into Victory Lane at the 1975 Indianapolis 500.

From what I've heard, Dan adopted #48 from the number that his NFL buddy, Les Richter, wore while he played for the Los Angeles Rams. Les was a big racing enthusiast. I think he later was involved with Riverside Raceway. And ultimately ended up with NASCAR as (I think) Dir. of Competition.

Dan later adopted other pet-#s. In the mid80s, he added #s 98 & 99 in honor of the late Indy car owner and racetrack promoter, JC Agajanian, who won Indy twice..'52 with Troy Ruttman and '63 with Parnelli Jones. Later, when Parnelli's son, PJ, became an AAR team-driver, it made for a nice 'symmetrical' fit. The other pet-number is "36"..the number that "Eagle104" carried to victory in the 1967 Belgian Grand Prix.

One of Dan's sons, Alex, now drives in Toyota-Atlantic competition, where he scored his first podium-finish just a couple of weeks ago. His number?...it's baaack, #48!

http://www.allamericanracers.com/atlantic_2000.html

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Penske/Donohue did use #6. But on their USAC Championship Trail car, their number was always 66.
[p][smallfont][Edited by Eagle104 on 08-16-2000][/smallfont]

Kevin Schwantz always ran with the number '34' after he was given the number, I don't really remember the story, but he still uses the number today. Mick Doohan almost always ran with number '1', but that was because he was so good and was always champion The late Joey Dunlop ran with number '3' plenty of times, and I'm sure we all know of 'Our Nige's Red 5...

But what about times when numbers were assigned to people and they objected or refused to run with them. The Japanese have a superstition about the number '4', so that's why Satoru Nakajima ran with the number '3' at Tyrrell. And do Italians have a thing about the number '17'?

One addition about how numbers are currently issued in F1. Until 1996, teams ran the same number from year to year, apart from the new and previous champion teams who traded numbers, such as the case you stated Gil with Lotus and Ferrari and Williams. After 1996, the champion driver receives the numbers '1' and '2' for the team he drives for, and the rest of the numbers are allocated according to the results of the constructors championship, the same way that pit locations are allocated.

The Italians that have driven with #17:
Pierro Taruffi in 1952 (1 race)
Lorenzo Bandini in 1965 (1 race)
Andrea de Adamich & Nanni Galli in 1971 (1 race each)
Renzo Zorzi in 1977 (3 races)
Nicola Larini in 1989 (16 races)
Gabriele Tarquini in 1990/91 (29 races)
Emanuele Naspetti in 1992 (5 races)
Andrea Montermini in 1995 (17 races)
Nicola Larini & Gianni Morbidelli in 1997 (5 and 8 races)

As you see, in the old days rarely an Italian used 17, so you might have something there. These days superstition can hardly be brought into contractnegotiations. Can you imagine Fisichella putting a clause into his contract saying he will drive for Benetton, provided that when they get assigned numbers 17 & 18, I must have number 18?

BTW both in 1989 and 1991 the team's other driver was also an Italian

I sorely miss the tradition of retaining the same numbers year in and year out with the exception being the incoming and outgoing WDCs' teams and the occasional reshuffling to accomodate new and retired teams. I guess with the fact that only three or four current teams have been around for longer than twenty years sort of makes it a moot point (Lotus should still be 11&12, Brabham 7&8 or 5&6, Tyrrell 3&4, Ferrari 27&28 in a perfect world)... Still, the teams should have to earn a number change. The fact that Tyrrell ran with 3&4 for nearly 30 years was a symbol of their plight to win as years went on...

I was motivated to revive this Olde Threade after doing a little reading on the German Grand Prix. I noticed that in the 1952 race, the cars were numbered from 101 to 136 and I wonder why. In previous and later years, German GP numbering seemed quite conventional as it was in the other Grands Prix of 1952.

I did notice that the 1952 race celebrated the 25th anniversary of the 'ring; was that a factor?

And a supplementary question on the same race. According to Lang, "No official practice times (were) issued by the organisers". Posthumus mentions practice times set by Ascari and Farina and FORIX quotes the fastest seven in practice (and show Ascari at 10'04.4 vs. the 10'04.9 mentioned by Posthumus).

So why no official practice times? My Motor Sport collection doesn't go back quite that far ... so I'm stuck!

I think the numbering was purely because they assigned different numbers to each race on the programme, without duplication. This was fairly common in German events at the time and also applied sometimes in Britain, notably at Charterhall. I have the relevant Motor Sport, but no time to check: due back at work in 6 minutes and it's a 10 minute drive!

And there was I assuming you had a second computer at work and posted to TNF while the staff fended off the customers!

Since this thread has been revived, I might as well stick in my two penn'orth:



Yes, 17 to the Italians is as 13 to the English-speakers. A good Italian friend of mine frequently used to bemoan the fact that she was born on Friday the 17th ...

-- Neil

The most recent example of numerical superstition, as far as I can recall, is Villeneuve taking no. 10 whilst Panis took No. 9 at BAR 2001...the current system for numbering is very logical IMO, if only they made the numbers more visible...sorry, visible at all...

True, but if we take a look at this year's Renault, for example, its rear wing sideplates doesn'ta carry any logo, IIRC.
If we look at other cars, there are still enough space for relatively big numbers to be placed.
And, since 2002, there are no side numbers at all, only an invisible one on the top of the nose.
What's the reason for that because space could be found easily?

Hrvoje

And in most years Foyt's other cars were various random combinations of 1, 4 and 8 - George Snider ran numbers 1 (as Gold Crown champion), 4 and 84 at Indy for Foyt.

NASCAR's obviously the king for numbers - you can go most of 1-99 with numbers sacred to certain drivers. Lord knows what the logic is. I suppose Jimmie Johnson uses 48 because it is double car owner Jeff Gordon's racing number, DEI use 15 because Dale used it for a couple of years, and Dale Jr uses 8 because it was Ralph's number (but why? -Ralph also used 88).

RCR use 3 because RIchard Childress was a fan of Junior Johnson, who used 3 (and 26) a lot (don't know why).

Lee Petty used 42 because that was his car number plate, so Richard used the next one along. Maurice Petty when racing used 41, Petty Enterprises went on to use 44, Kyle used 42 when he started and now uses 45, which was Adam's number. Ritchie Petty on an abortive Daytona attempt added 10 instead of 1 to get 53.

And nearer the back OTTOMH Herman Beam used 19, HB Bailey 36, Friday Hassler 39, Wendell Scott 34 (reverse of the King? -he did at least win one), Cecil Gordon 24, JD McDuffie 70, Doc Faustina 5, EJ Trivette 08, Phil Barkdoll 73, Dr Don Tarr and Delma Cowart 0, Elmo Langley 64 (he won 2), Emanuel Zervakis 85 (also a double winner), Junie Donlavey 90 (50 years of racing = 1 win), Neil Castles 06, Tom Pistone 59 (another winner) and Jimmy Means 52, but I have no idea why. Consistent title contender James Hylton used 48. Dave Marcis uses 71, presumably because he took over the Krauskopf team, who also used 71 way back to Bobby Isaac (but why did they use 71?).

Technically the numbers in NASCAR go with the owners, which is why Dale moved to 3 with RCR when he had been number 2 at Rod Osterlund's; the sponsors wanted him to take the number 2, to save all the stickers &c being wasted after a mid-season move, but Osterlund would not give up the number. Then pulled out a couple of years later anyway. Of course many of the above drivers were owner-drivers.

Messing the numbers round every year based on constructors' positions means that merchandise goes out of date very rapidly - so, by downplaying the size of the numbers of the cars and stopping people associating them strongly with drivers/teams.... they become less and less important.

pete

Looking at the pic of Jarno Trulli's cap in the first post of this thread, that argument just got tossed out the window. I find it very strange that the number 7 on his cap is probably bigger and more legible than the one on his car.

Sorry - no mention at all in Motor Sport, but they paid scant attention to practice times in those days anyway!

Does anyone know why Scheckter raced as number 0 for two races at the end of 1973? Emerson Fittipaldi's car bore number 1 at the time.

Just a guess, but as Jody raced with a 0 in both F5000 and CanAm in North America, and as the two F1 races were in Canada and the US, maybe 0 was thought of as 'his' number...

/Conny

I know this is in response to a seven-year-old post, but it follows up with the relevant information.

Kevin Schwantz took his racing number 34 from his dirt-tracking uncle Darryl Hurst, a 1975 AMA national winner (Michael Scott, The 500cc World Champions). And in fact, many motorcycle racers do have the habit of keeping the same number, which is a particular tradition in the US. Joey Dunlop’s 3 is a good example, as is Barry Sheene’s 7 and Valentino Rossi’s 46 - which his father Graziano had used previously. There are loads more.

[quote name='subh' date='Aug 15 2007, 18:40' post='2821252']
I know this is in response to a seven-year-old post....

And I know that, now, this is in response to a now-nine-year-old post, but glad I found this and thanks to all of you for your information. I often wondered why F1 teams had different car number race to race until mid-1973 or so.

Gary