So there goes your theory... However there must have been an interims develop version in 1988, the one I have listed as possible DFS, here's a photo from Kevin Cogan 1989:



www.race-cars.com has the DFS starting in 1988.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gbl
[B]

So there goes your theory... However there must have been an interims develop version in 1988, the one I have listed as possible DFS, here's a photo from Kevin Cogan 1989:

BTW this theory is not mine but ICR magazine (april 1992) has "Fan tips" article were is described how to separate different cars - 91 & 92 cars are quite similar. I leave this engine stuff for somebody who really knows about it.

Some more interesting observations from 1979 entry list of the Offy engined cars:


Bore/Stroke

4311x2750: Hopkins, #51, Vollstedt, Gehlhausen #19, Rhoades
4281x2750: Santello, Beaudoin Racing, BFM, Alsup, Gehlhausen #39, Leader Card, Thunder Racing, Medlin, Donna Allen
4291x2750: McElreath
4110x2750: Wayne Woodward
4312x2750: Intercomp
4375x2650: Gibson, Armstrong #46, William Compton, Wysard, Hucul, Richard Beith (weird looking engine)
4380x2650: Morales #78
4443x2600: Armstrong #47
4437x2750: Larry Cannon
4050x3125: Jim Hurtubise
4019x2750: Hoffman


Offical Offy values:

4030x3125: 159 Turbo
4281x2750: Drake-Offy, DGS


So what to make out of this, did they try to tune the engines themselves?


Second question:

So far we know of one 1977 Watson and one 1978 model. However for 1979 there were three cars at Indianapolis, #22, #24 and chassis #40 (with the Drake V8). #40 looks like the 1978 car, was it the same chassis renumbered or is there an additional chassis?

glb,

some teams did their own development on Offies in order to gain an advantoge over the standard Offy. Use of lightweigt Carillo connection rods for example. But I know that Roger Huntington described how Pattrick racing developed its own shortstroke version of the offy on order to rev up even higher. That was before pattrick supported the funding and building of the Leo Goossen/Hans Hermann designed DGS that was introduced in '75.

Dan Gurney also did some Offy development for the factory Eagles.


Henri

[/B]

Now it makes sense...
AJ Watson built another new car for 1979 that would accomodate either a Drake V8 or a stock block engine, and reworked this car in 1980 to use a Cosworth engine.(1981 Indy fact book).

Watson had third car also at 1980 Indy 500 - #22/2T - debuted in final qualifying day (may 18) with 4 other cars, in hands of both his drivers, Vuky and Kinser. The others last minute debutants were new #30 IAM (Threshie), #75 March (Puterbaugh), #86 Lightning (Loquasto) and
#92 Mahler in his just arrived PC6 copy. (C.Lee Norquest- The Fabulous 500 History).

Sheldon Kinser used the second (this??) Watson in 1980 Championship Trail road races. (Kirby`s 1981 annual).

[/B]
No idea about Chianelli yet, but 28th driver at Pocono 1985 was Tom Gloy. Al Unser Jr, who`s leg was broken(as result of Elkhart Lake accident) requested that a back-up driver be on hand in case he wasn`t up to task of 500 miles with his broken foot. So he asked his long time friend and ex Galles Racing teammate Gloy to be ready if necessary. Gloy was even out on friday practice in Unser`s backup Lola but on race day Gloy`s services wasn`t needed. (On Track, sept 16, 1985)

I've always had a problem to believe that this should be the 77 car since it reapeared unchanged in 1981. But now this perfectly fits as the 79 car. Therefore at Indy 1980 the #22/2T has to be the 77 car with whatever engine

---------------



Found be malvi in 1981 Michigan program. There are some doubts if the Metro Racing McLaren would be Jerry Sneva's 1978 car. This confirms this, now the remaining question is M16B-2 or M16B-3.


---------------






I've now identified the 1979 Indy Hopkins cars. First is the 1979 Laydown Offy, entered as #51 then became #15. Second is an 1979 Mk1 car with little different bodywork, #99 in 1980 and also the strange car we had seen in Ontario 1979. This car was entered as #15 with a Drake V8 and the became the #51. Also used in 1981 (photo a few pages earlier)


----------------

Last question: I'm unsure about the two Morales Lightning in 1979 Indy. #10 was entered with the Drake V8 engine and #78 with the normal Offy. In the quali picture #10 appears with the normal Offy. Did they park the Drake and renumbered #78?


----------------
Edit: Owner for Roger Ragers car in Indy 1979 was "Radar Racing" (source: garage photo in National Speed Sport News)

@Allen:

I just read your nice review about the Eisert cars, here are two comments:

This is a photo from your own site: #96 with a Chevy, can you explain when they changed the engine and who is sitting in the car?

http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/Eiserts-Indy66-400x.jpg

I have a nice photo of the Heimrath car from 1970 and would definately identify it as the 1967 car (different undertray and front suspension body work to the 1966 quali picture but does match 1969 Congdon / Langhorne). This would be this car (still carrying #55 ) but of course it did not went to Fuji:


http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/other/67eis1/67eis1ss.htm

Gary

I'm impressed you can tell that's a Chevy! Where did you find that picture? It's a copyrighted image so it shouldn't be appearing on my site anywhere, it's just there for research purposes (which is a legally acceptable use of course). The picture is taken of the scrum to be first out for practice. The slimmer 66 car (#96) was originally intended for a Ford but Eisert couldn't get one in time for the start of practice so built it with a Chev. The Ford engine finally turned up and was fitted some time around qualifying (from memory - this is in the Daily Reports somewhere).

For those of you who haven't seen the Eisert article, it's here.

I'm afraid I don't know who's in the two cars but again that should be in the Daily Reports.

The Heimrath car in the race-cars.com advert is the one AL Murray now has. He was told by Jerry that he has the 1967 car so the Fuji reference must be wrong.

We should exchange Eisert pictures some time as I've found it difficult to come to conclusions about these cars. The McMillan car(s) is/are particularly difficult.

Allen

One addition to the Allen`s list:
Fletcher had 2 PC7s before/during 1981 Indy 500 - he sold one to Brayton`s, one day after the event, cause new March 81C was ordered and on his way to States.
BTW, Allen you`re right about Wysard`s Eagle in 1981-82 - it wasn`t 81 spec, but upgraded 80 one.

Excellent; thanks Malvi. Can you tell me your source for this new info?

Allen

To Allen
"On Track" 81/5 pg 3 - Fletcher article & Wysard`s 80 Eagle is mentioned as well in some 81-82 issues - for example 81/12 pg 13(Riverside report). In the same issue(Dan Gurney interview) is mentioned the fact until this time AAR has sold 3 81 spec Eagles:for Chassey(Jet Engineering),Chip Mead and Herm Johnson, while Josele Garza and Dennis Firestone have already put their money down for the first 3 of 8 1982 Eagles planned for construction this(81-82) winter. The forth new 1981 Eagle was of course run by AAR itself(Mosley) and until Milwaukee II at least, they did not have any backup car - Mosley missed both Atlanta & MIL II due practice accidents.

To bring back from page 6...

This might be not 100% correct, if your new information ist correct. The Wysard car is definately a 1980 car, look at the radiator / rear wing. And for the 1981 we would have:

8101 Jamieson Racing
8102 Jet Engineering (http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/other/eaglx1/eaglx1ss.htm, not 8101 I'd say)
8103 AAR (used at least up to Milwaukee II, Allen thought only up to Milwaukee I)
8104 Menard car

can we list Mosley for Atlanta and Milwaukee II as DNS?

Sure we can - Atlanta "OT" 81/7 : "Missing from the field at Atlanta was Milwaukee winner Mike Mosley who crashed badly enough during practice for the works Eagle to be irrepairable in the time available..." Mike just plain lost control in the turn 4 and readily admitted his own error.

At Milwaukee II Mosley even qualyfied into 8th spot (between Krisiloff & Alsup) but the race was delayed almost a month due heavy rain and actually i do not know why Mosley did not return.(gap in my OT collection).

There were huge fields in 81-82 (up to 40 cars showd up -enough to held consolation races etc) but CART did not care about DNQrs at all until 1984.

I do not know Mead`s or Chassey`s Eagle wore chassis # 01 but seems like everyone agree, Mosley`s Milwaukee winner was 03 - then it was sold to Ray Lipper(most likely after 81 season end) and then it became Tom Bigelow`s HBK mount in 82 - 18th place at Indy.And definitely Johnson`s car was #04 and forth 81 Eagle at all.
Gurney sold it during Atlanta weekend and the deal included 3 all-aluminium Chevy-engines that Johnson used in his old Lightńing until the Eagle was delivered and ready.

Mead`s team in 1981 was called Ohio Racing Associates - i do not know Bill Jamieson had something to do with it or not, but for sure in 1982 Mead drove exactly the same car but then already under Jamieson Racing banner.

Malvi

Thanks for this. Parsons appears with a #34 Wysard "Eagle 82C" at Cleveland July 1982. Is that the Eagle 80 again?

Allen

PS How sure are we that there was only one 1980 Eagle?

Just to tidy up the 1981/82 Eagles, can anyone identify these:

#28 Menard Eagle-81-Chev for Herm Johnson Indy 1982: his 1981 '04' or his 1982 '10'?
#39 Circle Bar Eagle 81-DFX for Chet Fillip Indy 1982
#64 Jet Engineering Eagle 81-Chev from Indy 1982 onwards: 1981 '01' or his 1982 '09'?
#28 Menard Eagle-81-Chev for Herm Johnson Milwaukee 1982: his 1981 '04' or his 1982 '10'?
#47 Metametrix Eagle 81-DFX or 82-DFX for Kniefel, Villeneuve et al from Riverside Aug 1982
#56 Genesee Eagle 82 for Chassey 1983: presumably '09'
#46 Morris Pontiac/Refuse Eagle 82-Chev for Kreuger Mid-Ohio 1983
#45 Dale Coyne Eagle 82-Chev in 1984
#64 Jet Engineering Eagle '83'-Chev at Indy 1983: 1981 '01' or his 1982 '09'?
#83 Jet Engineering Eagle '83'-Chev at Indy 1983: 1981 '01' or his 1982 '09'?
#56 Genesee Eagle '83'-Chev for Chassey at Indy 1984: his old '09'?

What is Mosley's Eagle 82? Is that 8105?

The 1983 Eagles don't seem very straightforward either but I'll come back to them later.

Also

In On Track 82 Cleveland report Parsons Eagle listed as 80 one and if i consider Wysard`s economical possibilities, previous Indycar activities and astronomically rising costs of this sport in 82-83-84 i have a reason to believe it must be true. I do not know how many 80 Eagles were built but i would be surprised if there were more than 2 cars.

Ok i try to put together Eagles run in 1982.
Indy 500 1982
Johnson/Menard 04
Chandler/Freeman 13
Bigelow/HBK 03 ex Lipper/ex AAR
Fillip/Circle Bar chassis unknown but could it be one of the cars Garza withdraw(07or08)???
Halsmer/Arciero 11
Firestone/BCV 06
DNQrs
Mead/Jamieson-definitely the same car Mead drove in 81 (01 ?) later Kneifel & Villeneuve
Frey/Jet Engineering-definitely the same car Chassey drove in 81 (02 ?), Leffler later
Mosley/AAR-could it be chassis 05 or was it totally new and built for Indy/1982 championship trail??
Wilson/Theodore ???
Karl/Purcell - The car called Purcell but Eagle 81(or 80?) based for sure.

The second Menard car (10) appeared most likely since MIL???- T-car appearing on some entry lists, alternately 81 & 82 Eagles mentioned etc

The second Jet Engineering car (09) no idea about this car racing history but hard to believe this car could be ex Karl , ex Firestone or ex Wilson for example. This car was assigned for World of Outlaws defending champ Sammy Swindell for Indy 500 82 but according to Hungness it wasn`t finished for the time.

I can count 13 different cars

Dick Hammond bought his cars(or at least one) from defunct Menard team. In 1983 Chassey drove ex-Menard 8110 at Indy 500 and it was his backup 56/58 - the same car Herm Johnson crashed at Michigan 500 in 1982.

Arciero`s car(11) went back to Gurney/AAR in 1983 - Jeff Wood started at Vegas and Laguna in this car. Then this car wore racing #98 and was sponsored by Wood`s own family business Landmark Oil Exploration.

BTW the first Unser jr`s 83 Eagle GR4 was sometimes called(Hungness) 8114 - this makes me think there were built 13 Eagles before it.
All corrections and additions are welcome

I've been having a go at late 1960s Gerhardts and one curious car is the #112 VTM Finishing Gerhardt-Ford of Steve Krisiloff in 1969. Anyone know who was behind the team or what sort of Ford engine they were using?

Edit: Sorry - totally forgot to mention that it ran as the #92 car in 1970 as well.

Allen

That is a Shelby-Dowd entry, I have a photo from 1970 where the car has a N/A Ford DOHC engine.

The 1970 USAC Yearbook has the number 92, the "VTM Finishing Corp., Spl." as the entry of American Racing Assoc. Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey.

Sounds like a total New Jersey effort to me. Krisiloff is from Parsippany. Lake Hiawatha is a suburb of Parsippany-Troy Hills. VTM Finishing was in Paterson, just a few miles east.

gbl, Shelby-Dowd used the number 92 in 1971, IIRC. Is the pic of a Gerhardt ?

American Racing Associates was a name used by Roy Woods in Can-Am, F5000 and Trans-Am about the same time but Woods was from Northridge, CA. This sounds like a different bunch.

Allen

Another Gerhardt for you all as I've just been contacted by Phil Gumpert who owns the former #39 Louis Seymour/Don Brown Gerhardt from 1970/71.

He was told by Buzz Harvey, the man behind Bulldog Stables, that this car was the #26 car for Rick Muther in 1969 and that Buzz later sold it to Seymour some time in 1970.

The problem with this is that the picture of Al Loquasto's Gerhardt at Indy in 1970 clearly shows it to be the same car that Muther had driven in 1969. Nothing's been changed. Loquasto crashed it at Indy but raced a #26 later in the season - at the same time that Brown raced the #39 Seymour Gerhardt.

So how do we square this? If the 1969 #26 Bulldog Stables Gerhardt was the 1970 #39 Louis Seymour Gerhardt how can it also have been the 1970 #26 Loquasto car?

Or could the 1970 Hungness picture of #26 be from the wrong year? No - surely not...

Allen

Yes I might have messed up the #92 entries of 1971 and 1970. However the #92 car in 1971 is definately a modifed Eagle and in 1970 an older non-wedge Gerhardt. I'll send Allen a few photos, haven't got your mail address, Gerr.

Thanks for the photos gbl. The picture of Loquasto's car at Michigan is particularly helpful as it does show quite a few differences to the Hungness Indy 500 picture. The 1969-1972 Hungness book was done several years after the events so I suppose it is possible that a picture was used incorrectly. If the picture of Loquasto's 1970 car is actually a 1969 picture, then Buzz Harvey's story makes sense.

The #92 Eagle from 1971 was the 1969 Eagle 'Santa Ana' that Dan Gurney drove at Indy that year and was later sold to Carroll Shelby to run for Danny Ongais at Indy 500 in 1971 (Autosport 28 Jan 1971 p5).

Allen

I got a question concerning the Penske team in 1969 -1971. Why did they enter thir cars under the name U.S. Racing? Only from 1972 the name of the entrant was Roger Penske Ent.

In the late 70s the Can-Am team of Herb Kaplan was also called U.S. Racing. Is there any connection?

Independent Star-News - May 29, 1966, Pasadena, California

That agrees with the CP&A article I referred to earlier which said he'd built his first 1966-spec in December (for the January tests at the Speedway) then ten more in time for the 500. He then built at least one more tub as a replacement for the wrecked Walther car and may have built an additional 'house' car later in the season.

If only he'd numbered them in some way.

Allen

Simon Hadfield was kind enough to lend me the 1963 and 1965 Clymers yesterday so I've been trying to clean up the early Huffakers and the early Lolas. Inevitably this has led to further questions.

There were three 1964 Huffakers :
#48 Rodriguez 1964; #48 Grant 1965; ?? 1966 ...
#53 Hansgen 1964; maybe the #44 loan car Bobby Unser wrecked Phoenix 65
#54 Foyt/Veith 1964; #53 Hansgen 1965; ?? 1966 ...

And one 1965 Huffaker :
#54 Veith 1965; presumably Unser for Van Liew the rest of 1965

Also Arnie Knepper drove a #18 Konstant Hot Huffaker for Vatis after Indy in 1965 which must have been one of the leftover 1964 cars.

The two 1966 Huffakers were for Van Liew but can anyone kindly tell me if Clymer gives the past history of the older Johnson (#54) and Congton (#53) Vatis-entered Huffakers at the 1966 "500" and the Dallenback (#53) one a year later?

And while you have the 1966 Clymer in your hand, what does it say for the #34 Michner Lola driven by Larry Dickson? The three Mecom Lolas at that race (#24 Hill, #26 Ward and #43 Stewart) were T90s but I don't know about the #9 Michner/Larson car, the #34 Michner/Dickson car or the #68 Lola-Chev entered by George Reves and driven in practice by Ronnie Bucknum and Bruce Jacobi.

Many thanks

Allen

Allen,
If you haven't seen the '66 Clymer yb, you would assume it has the type of info the other years had. That's not the case and the '66 yb is a real mess with very little data. Clymer apologizes in the forward for the lateness of the book. I think there may have been some real trouble getting it published that year and it looks thrown together.

The '67 yb is sort-of back to the regular format.
Dallenbach's 53 is listed as Veith's 1964 qualifier, Hansgen's in 1965 and Congden's in 1966.

I made a note in my Fox book some years ago that the Reves Lola was the 1965 Hopkins number 5.
Can't remember where I ran across that....

Wasn't this car also referred to, in the Kjell Qvale British Motor Cars Inc. numbering sequence, as the BMC Mk IX?

It is possible to identify the Lola T80/90/92 by photo (fuel intakes, front suspension). My info is three T80 for 1965 and then 3 T90 for 1966 + Mitchner 2 old T80 and Reeves 1 old T80.
For 1968 I have identified the Jack Adams car as a T92. I only have a head on shot of the Dayton-Walther car so I cannot identify this.

Allen, I think I had most of the early RE cars figured out, but I haven't looked at this for some time now, and am still posting away from my home. Don't despair, we'll get through this, I'm positive.

gbl

Thanks for that.

The Walther car can be identified from the Walther auction where the wrecked tub is shown under lot 952 and the story of its purchase is under lot 293. It's the ex-Ward T90.

I'm suspicious about the #24 and #43 Mecom Lolas in 1967. Have you compared pictures of them? Could the #24 be a T90? Could they be the same car sneakily renumbered after the #43 was bumped?

Allen

One more unidentified Lola while we're at it: Jerry Hansen's #85 Pacesetter Homes Lola-Ford at Brainerd and Seattle Sep/Oct 1969. Anyone have any ideas on it?

(He also had a #85 Pacesetter Homes Eagle-Chev at Riverside in December which could have been a F5000 car.)

Allen

Former owner Bob Cavanagh got in touch recently to correct some of my details on his car, which I had down as the ex-Dempsey Wilson Halibrand Shrike but Bob tells me it was previously driven by Max Dudley. Apparantly Max bought himself a new Gerhardt and Bob bought the Shrike off him.

Bob sent these photographs. Anyone spot anything that shouldn't be there?


(click for a larger image)


(click for a larger image)

Allen

#24 in the quali picture is a T92, don't any anymore.

When did Max Dudley drive a Halibrand?

That's today's $64,000 question.

The clue may be in the second picture. The tail appears to be that of a Gerhardt. Did someone [Harms] identify Dude's 1968 car as a Gerhardt based on it looking a bit like one from the back? At some point he gets a "new" Gerhardt but must have driven the Halibrand at some point in 1968. Bob and Max shared a shop and Bob worked on the Shrike when Max owned it so I doubt that Bob's made a mistake on this.

If you look at Wallen p429, there's a picture of Johncock leading a trail of cars at Hanford, the first round of the 1968 season. Dudley's #61 is fourth car back and the nose and roll hoop are unmistakably Shrike.

What evidence do we have that Max Dudley's 1968 car was a Gerhardt? Are we all working from Phil Harms' data or does anyone have anything to corroborate it?

gbl - got many pictures of Dudley in your huge collection?

Allen

BTW, Bob also sent me pictures of his #73 car in 1971. Again, the bulges over the front suspension and the angled roll hoop identify it as a Shrike, exactly as Bob says. So Harms is wrong there too - Cavanagh didn't run a Gerhardt in 1971. It was a Shrike.

I can go further with the identification. Bob says Max bought it from AAR and the bulkier nose would reinforce this. That makes it a '65 Shrike.

Allen

I don't have any material about that, but you could send me the 1971 photos, maybe I find something.

Here is something interesting:

Kathy Rude in a unidentified Vollstedt car:


http://cgi.ebay.com/Indianapolis-500-Artic...1QQcmdZViewItem

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gbl
[B]
Kathy Rude in a unidentified Vollstedt car:[QUOTE]

That brings up the subject of Kathy Rude. Does anyone know how she is? She was seriously injured in a crash at Brainerd in 1983 that I believe ended her career. She married Ludwig Heimrath Jr. Last I heard of her was probably a dozen or more years ago and then the news was that she was ill with cancer. This is one case where I hope that what I heard is wrong.

Just found this:

http://web.tiscali.it/racingandclassic/pag...ormulaindy.html

Even a chassis numbers is mentioned: MKXII-3/66

Great find Herbert. It's got a Chev engine, suggesting the Gehlhausen car that ran for years.

Anyone have a picture of the Pat O'Reilly/Ned Spath Huffaker-Chev? I've never known whether that was one of the curvy 1964/65 models or the square cut 1966 model.

I think there were four 1966 Huffakers - I don't know why I said two a few posts ago.

Allen

Tada!!!

http://www.artemisimages.com/detail.aspx?p...keywords=dudley


Max Dudley, Longhorne 1968, same Shrike car as in your photos, when do I get my price money...



http://www.artemisimages.com/detail.aspx?p...&keywords=spath
http://www.artemisimages.com/detail.aspx?p...&keywords=spath
Ned Spath, 66 Huffaker

Excellent gbl. Yes, I agree, Spath's is a '66.

So it's looking like Dude drove the Shrike throughout 1968. Should we assume his Gerhardt arrived for the start of 1969? It was certainly the car he had at Indy 1969.

Allen

Two of my best mates during their brief CART careers...

Fellow forum member on our right front. Graham Donaldson.

Since my brother, Rob Kortman, is in this photo, I sent a copy to him. He replied:

His name is actually Quique Mansilla, but your brother clearly remembered the right bloke!

The chap on the left-rear reminds me of a mechanic who worked at WSRs when they ran Quique in '82.

Anyone has more pictures of the 1964 Troutman-Barnes rear engined Indy car?