Could 'Velka cena Masarykova' be memorial name for late President? If yes, what was original planned name?

I always thought the Masaryk circuit and races were named in honour of Jan Masaryk, son of the president, though I can't remember what his role was

I think that in 1937, the most famed and important man of the two Masaryks was Tomas, president of the czeck republic. If remembering correctly, at the time Jan was ambassador in London. After WW2 he was minister of Foreign office till he "commited suicide" (maybe helped?) in mars 1948.

President Masaryk donated Trophy for race winner, but only in 1935 and 1937 race was called Grand Prix (Velka cena), even if was always Grand Prix.

ALBI 1950: Circuit de vitesse d'Albi; Circuit de vitesse de l'Albigois; Grand Prix d'Albi ?











So in French:

-circuit: the roads or track were a race is ran.

-Circuit de...: an event with many races (F1+F2+F3 for exemple) which have not the status of Grand Prix

-Circuit de...: a race which for some reason(s) have not the status of a Grand Prix (two or more heats, less than 300 km).

What is 'vitesse'? Speed? So 'Circuit de vitesse de l'Albigois' is 'Speed race at Albi area'?

Yes but it's not in correct french so don't take your head to translate. Only to associale Albi and speed (in fact it was a very fast circuit).

Sorry for pedantry, but can you post some French quotes of that period with using term 'Circuit de ...' as a race name with traslations?

I'm still looking for explanation of using "Circuito di ..." as race name in Italian and original quotes in French and Czech also with "Circuit de ..." and "Masarykuv Okruh" as race names. But now there's another question. Are "Trophy" in English and "Prix" in French the same? Could "Richmond Trophy" be "Prix de Richmond" in French?

My guess is it would be "Tropheé Richmond"

"Trophy" is the only word similar to French "Prix" I found in races names. So in my work I translate both "Trophy" and "Prix" with the same Russian word "Prize". Is it correct? I'd like to know meaning of "Trophy" in English races names.

In contemporary reports, races were described as (for example) "A ten-lap race for Formula 1 cars for the Richmond Trophy": the "trophy" part therefore should be seen as referring to the actual (non-monetary) prize awarded to the winner - it could be a cup, a plate, a bowl or even some sort of piece of memorabilia like a steering wheel mounted in a frame.

"Trophy", therefore, relates to the French "prix", but has a more precise meaning. Some French races are called the "Coupe de XXXXX" - this infers the same sort of thing as "trophy", referring to a solid object rather than a more abstract concept.

Sorry - couldn't find a simpler way to explain it, Vladimir!

It's quite simple explanation, thank you.



Such an expression is grammatically correct in Russian, and I was very surprised reading this example. Learning English is shifting process between two feelings: English and Russian are very similar in some areas and English and Russian are absolutely different in other areas. It seems that originally it's correct to say in Russian the same way about 'race for a prize'. But modern language allows to describe race using only prize name. I guess this is the origin of the problem, which I've been trying to resolve in this topic. We usually talk on the past in modern terms, and to find original meanings and feelings is nessessary condition to get correct picture.

You referred to French "Coupe" name, but there's "Cup" races in English. What's the difference between "Cup" and "Trophy"? I think "Cup" is always a cup, and "Trophy" could be various kinds of non-monetary award.

Exactly.
But I suspect most trophies were (and are) cups
Naming races after the prize is much older than you suggest - think Vanderbilt Cup and Trophée des Ardennes, both well before the First World War

I found this thread only now. As I quote some old posts, click on name to see original post.

I think that Italian Circuito di is more or less similar to the French Circuit de, as explained by GIGLEUX:
Circuito is the same in Italian (same as Autodromo)Yes, but not today. I can guess not later than 1950s or 1960s, but I'm not sure.Only with reference to previous point; not today.

I can add also that Circuito di was used for naming a race held on roads with no particular official name, so with reference to the most important geographical item in the neighborhood (villages, towns, quarters, rivers, lakes, ...)

I'm not sure about Modena, but it could be correct, because in this case Circuito di is the name of the event, not only of the track. I tried to search on Google vinto il circuito di (= won circuito di, more or less) and I found reference like this about bikes and snowboard.
As regard motor racing, as now each race has its official name, this use about modern races is uncorrect. You can't say that Barrichello won Circuito di Monza: it makes me thing that after his win, he became Monza's circuit owner!

Another important point.
Garda is a small village and Lago di Garda (Garda Lake) is named after it (I don't know why, as it isn't the most important, but this doesn't fit with this thread).
Circuito di Garda means that the circuit was around (near to) the village called Garda, while Circuito del Garda means that it was near to the lake. As the lake is quite big, this difference is quite important: the circuit was quite far away from Garda-village!

For the same reason:

• Binetto is called Circuito del Levante: Levante is not a village, but it means simply East
• Circuito del Lario: Lario the old name of Lake of Como, there are no villages with such a name
• Circuito di Collemaggio at L'Aquila: it has di because Collemaggio is a quarter of L'Aquila
• Circuito del Littorio and Circuito dell'Impero: of course, Littorio (a fascist symbol) and Impero (= Empire) were political names (don't forget it was 1939!), not a geographical one... In a comunist country, it could have been named something like "Red Star Circuit"
• Circuito della Fascia d'Oro at Montichiari, also known as Circuito di Brescia: Brescia is the main town, Montichiari the small village (well, small in 1920s, quite big now) and Fascia d'Oro is the name of the area of start/finish line.
• Circuito del Castello at Teramo: Castello (= Castle) is a generic name...
• Circuito del Savio: named after river Savio

Ciao,
Guido

Motor racing historian Alexander Kultchitsky sent me interesting qoute from book VOZY VELKÝCH CEN (Prof. Ing. Dr. Boleslav Hanzelka, SNTL/ALFA PRAHA 1973)

Masarykùv okruh

V Èeskoslovensku byly podle volné formule vypsány první ètyøi roèníky velkého mezinárodního závodu na 29,142 km dlouhé trati, tehdy Masarykova okruhu u Brna (obr. 47), vedené malebným krajem Mrštíkovy Pohádky máje. Okruh mìl celkové pøevýšení 240 m, maximální stoupání 7 %, klesání 9,5 %. Témìø polovinu trati tvoøila vcelku pøímá státní silnice Brno — Jihlava; vìtší èást okruhu, projíždìného proti smyslu otáèení hodinových ruèièek, byla vedena po zatáèkovitých, úzkých okresních silnicích s pomìrnì znaènými výškovými rozdíly.

Tento závod, poøádaný v letech 1930 až 1937, nebyl formálnì vypsán jako Velká cena Èeskoslovenska (VCÈ), nebo tu mohl podle mezinárodních øádù poøádat jen oficiální, v mezinárodních motoristických organizacích nás zastupující AKRÈs (Autoklub republiky èeskoslovenské) nebo organizace jím povìøená, zatímco poøadatelem Masarykova okruhu byl Èeskoslovenský automobilový klub pro Moravu a Slezsko (ÈAMS) v Brnì . Závod však byl a je v zahranièí i v publikacích oznaèován jako VCÈ, nebo to v té dobì byl nejvìtší automobilový závod ve støední Evropì, který se úèastí i organizací rovnal závodùm o Velké ceny — v letech 1935 a 1937 se ostatnì jel pod názvem Velká cena Masarykova — a cizinu nezajímala nedorozumìní našich motoristických organizací.

Okruh se jel sedmnáctkrát, takže délka závodu, který byl poøádán pro skupinu závodních vozù se zdvihovým objemem válcù pøes 1,5 1 a do 1,5 1, byla 495, 4 km. Obì skupiny jely v závode souèasnì, silnìjší skupina ale startovala o 3 minuty døíve. V jednotlivých roènících tohoto závodu vidìla naše veøejnost postupnì nejslavnìjší jezdce na vozech nejvýznamnìjších znaèek tehdejší doby.

In this occasion words 'Masarykova okruhu' may have double meaning: ÈAMS was creator of either circuit and race. But which meaning is correct?

From the great Malcolm Mitchell's website:

Brno 1932 = 3. Masarykuv Okruh

http://www.progcovers.com/motor/brno35.jpg

Brno 1935 = VI Velka Cena Masarykova

http://www.progcovers.com/motor/brno35_2.jpg

Brno 1949 = Velka Cena Ceskoslovenska

http://www.progcovers.com/motor/brno49.jpg

I saw these covers. My personal task is to find most correct way of translation of such a names used for races of circuits. Whether the 'circuit' name belongs to race or venue can be cleared by finding of qutations from various publications.

'Masarykuv Okruh' on the top of the cover could be similar to the following fantasy cover:

Goodwood circuit

Official season opening

Races for sport and racing cars

...where "Goodwood circuit' isn't really race's name.

So I'm looking for correct translation of the above quote with explanations and for other similar quotes.

It was umpteen times stated above:

in czech okruh is:

a) place who you can race wit car round

b) this race itself. Many races was called simply "xxx okruh" or "III. xxx okruh" or similar.

I dont know haw can i this say simpler.

That sounds identical to my understanding of Italian practice, where the Circuito di Brescia might be a race or it might be the track* the race is run on.
*I've deliberately avoided either of the words we would normally use in English here, circuit or course, as they mean something different in other languages. But not in English. No native Enlgish speaker would ever use 'circuit' or 'course' as the name of a race

As I explained in post #65, this is true only with reference to old races. I don't know when Circuito was last used as race, maybe before or just after World War Two.

Ciao,
Guido

Thank you, gdecarli, for your explanations.

sat, please don't be angry. As I said before it's linguistic translational research. Here in Russia there were no serious historic publications so far, and nobody knows how to translate a lot of names and terms from the first half of XX century. For each point I try to find examples and proof. Is it simple for you to read your local newspapers from the early 30s to find original quotes?

Here's an example of "Circuito" meaning race or
racing event in Mexico in 1968
(from my wonderful Web site) :


l


Additonal events as "Circuito" on this page, also
from my wonderful Web site:




--
Frank S

Quote from the first race programme:

"El pasado 19 de Novembre, teniendo programado el ler. Circuito Tijuana Internacional Pro la casa de la Juventud ya teniendo 30 = inscripciones se nos pidio suspender la carrera por parte de la P.P.C.J. 2 semanas del evento, cosa que en ningun momento consideramos."

And one of the picture's caption:

"Ler. CIRCUITO "BENITO JUAREZ" 21 MARZO DE 1966"

Please translate this.

"By the last 19th of November, once scheduled the "1st Circuit (here circuit means race) Tijuana (town where was to be held) International (don't need translation) Pro la Casa de la Juventud" (name of the race, in this case race scheduled to the benefits of the Youthness Home) and having 30 entries, we were asked to cancel the event by the P.P.C.J. (political party?), though this wasn't ever considered."

"1st Circuit Benito Juárez" (here too circuit stands for race) 21st March 1966


Hope this helps,

Carles.

I take it to say:

"On last 19th of November (1967), having planned the first Tijuana International Circuito to benefit the House of Youth, having 30 entries already, two weeks before the event we were asked by the P.P.C.J. to suspend the race, a thing we at no time considered."

I don't kinow who the "P.P.C.J." were, but the next paragraph tells of the club's disappointment when they withdrew their support, as the November race was to be the first event sponsored by a major organization. Also mentioned were numerous other obstacles the club overcame in order to present the event, only to have it rained out two weekends in a row. The racers wanted to go on, but civil authorities withdrew permission, pointing to the incident of a formula Lotus flipping and passing over the two-strand international border fence at the end of the Start-Finish straightaway.

Noting that there were 56 entries at the first weekend, 45 at the second, the club thought they had reached the point of diminishing returns, and eventually awarded trophies on the basis of fast times in practice. I got the E Production cup in an MGB GT. Results are in Autoweek or Competition Press.


The photo shows members of the Tijuana Auto Sport Club at the time of the first Benito Juarez race, 21 March 1966. "Ler" is actually '1er", for Primer, First.

I know a few of the TASC members:

Seated in front, our left, is Harry Codianne of San Diego, California, proprietor of a Mission Beach foreign (to the USA) car repair shop. He drove Elva Couriers in the Tijuana races, and smoked Hava-Tampa cigars. His son Ed drove a Karmann Ghia VW convertible in slaloms. Bill Koll, who twenty years or so later drove Porsches in IMSA events with Bill Bean went through a Holtville driver school in the KGVW at the same time I did in an MGB.

Next to Harry is Francisco "Chacho" Carillo, Tijuana Channel 12 newscaster and TV personality. He also went through a Holtville driver school, in a new 1968 Corvette.

On one knee and in glasses, to our left, is Marc Ferland, WWII fighter pilot and A-H Sprite racer. He sold his very quick Sprite to TASC member and TJ Mayor's godson, Tony Viedma, who eventually replaced its engine with a Coventry Climax. Tony told me recently that he studied and instructed at the Jim Russell school at Willow Springs, and was slated for a F1 drive but had to abandon it because of family matters.

With his fingers on his casco (helmet) is Francisco Araujo, TASC executive and a dealer in exotic cars.

The somber man in a jumpsuit, center back row, is Rodolfo "Rudy" Flores Macias, who crashed his Mini Cooper into a lamp post during practice for the rain race. He had the largest dental clinic in Tijuana at the time, and was the driving force behind the TASC.


Other photographs on the program page show the "le Mans" start of the March 1967 production car race. I remember planning to have a crew member run across the track to tag or hand the ignition key to the buckled-in driver, but do not remember which option we decided on. In the photo showing cars under way, the MGTF is driven by Fred Puhn, Chassis Engineering wheels maker, manufacturer of the Quasar sports racer and the Santee sports car, and owner of the Maserati V8-R1 c/n 4502. After a race-long battle with Mickey Pleasant in a Sprite, Fred won by a car-length.

--
Frank S

Thank you, Carles and Frank.

My next question is about American XXX mile races of 1930s and 50s. There are two ways of writing I saw in various sources.

1. '100 Mile Race'
2. '100 mile race'

First one looks like it's official name, second one is just a discription. Which is correct?

Using these words as description, one can wright: "Johnson won 100 mile races in Atlanta and San Francisco". If it's name, wrighting should be: "Johnson won Atlanta 100 Mile Race and San Francisco 100 Mile Race".

Talking on names and descriptions, I never explained my definitions of these terms. Sorry. I think that name is always given to person, animal, event, organization and so on somehow officially by person or organization, and it can't be changeble in most cases.

Description is any kind of short explanation of what event is.

Mobil 1 Grand Prix de France is official name. And there are many possible descriptions: French Grand Prix, French Formula One race, French World Championship round, Magny Cours race...

My problem is adopting some tricky foreign writing rules to Russian ones. There's a rule in Russian about using of capitals in names. Only proper names could be written with a capital, and only first word in a name should be written with a capital. Grand Prix is common noun in Russian and should be written 'grand-prix' (using some other rules). Also most of adjectives formed from proper names can't be written with capital. So there must be different translations for official name Grand Prix de France ('Grand-prix of France') and English description French Grand Prix ('french grand-prix'). That is why I ask questions, which look stupid.

Most famous American race is often called in Russian "500 miles of Indianapolis" as a name and "Indy-500" as a kind of nickname. Both names should be written in guillemet type quotation marks. And what about hundreds miles races in the past? Did they have NAMES like Indianapolis 500 Mile Race? Or just descriptions like 500 mile race in Indianapolis?

Official name of Mille Miglia was Coppa delle Mille Miglia.

Ciao,
Guido

It's very interesting! Was this name official during all history of the race?

I don't know, I should check.

Ciao,
Guido

When did term Voiturette started to be used in English for smaller cars class? In French it appeared after ACF adopted Bollee Voiturette car name for smaller motor racing car class. How such a cars used to be called in English those days? I think term light car was used, was it? There was RAC International Light Car Race in 30s. Now historians say it was held for Voiturette cars. But did anyone say so in Britain then? Did they talk about Voiturettes or about light cars? They also could use only 1500cc term. Which name this class had in other languages (Italian, German, Spanish)?

Kvadrat,

Voiturettes translation in Spanish were Autociclos, while in English were called Cycle Cars or Light Cars, AFAIK.


Carles.

Cyclecars is different class.

Italian is Veturette. Autociclos sounds like translation of Cyclecars which was a smaller class,like a 4-wheeled motorbike-today would be called a quadbike I guess. Though in racing history terms present equivalent F3 and all the smaller formulae below Voiturette/F2/F3000/GP2. 'Light Car' referred to road cars-there was a magazine called that- still published in the 50s when I was at school.Nowdays you would say small car.

From my own researches, the term voiturette was not really used in the British press in the 1930s. They usually referred just to the "1500cc class". But bear in mind that what is today sometimes referred to as the "Voiturette circus" was not a series of races in the sense that it was a championship of any sort and that there was no standardised "second formula": it just happened that once GP racing started to revive in 1931-2, smaller clubs began to switch their races to 1500cc. In the early 30s there were still lots of 1500cc Bugattis and Amilcars in France, so there were lots of races there. By the mid-30s the focus switched to Italy and Britain, thanks to Maserati and ERA, which effectively made the Bugattis obsolescent by 1935.

It's possible that the term only came into use here after the publication of Kent Karslake's book "Racing Voiturettes" in 1950. However, the press did refer to the original Alfa Romeo 158s as "Alfettes" in period.

And I still think it's a misnomer: the equivalent of a Voiturette these days is a Formula 3! The original Bollée Voiturette wasn't even a car, it usually ran with the Motor Cycles. Then, in 1899, with the advent of the four-wheeled Decauville, a new racing category was born, and we had Heavy Cars (Grosses Voitures), Light Cars (Voitures Légeres) and Voiturettes - F1, F2/3000 and F3/Junior!

Quite true, but right spelling has one more 'T': it's Vetturette.

Ciao,
Guido

Source - Science and Society Picture Library

That's why I think in the past posters headlines were circuits names or discriptions, not races' names.

I can't read Czech but suggest that when an event is only held once a year the name of the circuit and the event may be one and the same.
The Crystal Palace image does not appear on my screen,but I remember the posters when the circuit reopened in 1953. They appeared on the back of buses and must have been the first info I had that the sport existed! Green & yellow with the words 'Crystal Palace-Motor Racing & a pic of a single seater. Orange & yellow 'Crystal Palace-Motor Cycle Racing' for bikes.

Some more questions.

Is Cork in 'Cork Grand Prix' a city or province?

What is exact explanation of BRDC name: club of British racing drivers or British club of racing drivers?

What does 'Frontieres' mean in Grand Prix des Frontieres?

Frontieres is meant borders (granica in russian).

BRDC = British Racing Drivers' Club

Cork ... oh boy, that's a complicated one! Cork is the English-language name for the city. However, when what is now the Irish Republic was part of the United Kingdom, it was known as Queenstown.

The county name in English is also Cork (don't mention provinces, because that's a whole other story and not relevant anyway!).

Today, the city is known by its Gaelic name - Cobh, pronounced "cove" (more or less) - I have no idea when the official name change took place, but I assume the city's (and county's) name was still Cork in the period in question.

Now, the races.

According to Wilford Fitzsimmons (and he should know - he wrote a booklet on the races!), the 1936 race was called "The Cork National Car Race", the 1937 event was "The Cork International Car Race" and the three 1938 races were "The Cork Grand Prix", "The Cork Light Car Race" and "The National Motor Handicap Race".

As to whether it's named after the city or county: I'd go for the city, since the original initiative came from a committee of its citizens.

Thank you, Richard, that's what I wanted to know.

If my questions look stupid or too simle please don't think they really are stupid and so simple. I explained some basics of Russian language, which is different and more difficult than most of European languages. Words creating is quite difficult, and some translations sound just roughly, funny or ambiguously. I need to find origins of names to express them in most correct way.

I know translation of word 'frontieres', it's simple, but I can't just say Grand Prix of Frontiers in Russian. Was Frontieres an official or unofficial name of an area next to Belgian border?

BRDC site does not answers my question. Russian translation depends on whether BRDC was club of British racing drivers or British club of racing drivers. First versoin would mean that only British drivers could be it's members. The second one would mean that the club based in Britain but might be open for any foreign driver.

Cork Grand Prix translation depends on who organized the race. Every noun in Russian has its gender. Non human's names have gender of their common noun. City Cork and county Cork have different gender, which leads to different forms of name Cork in final translation.

Definitely a club for 'British' drivers. However one concept that a Russian may have difficulty with is that,certainly at the time it was founded,citizens of Comonwealth countries were regarded as British. Thus Irish drivers were members in the 30s,but excluded when it became Irish Republic.Likewise South Africans were thrown out when that country was kicked out of the Comonwealth.Canadians would have been eligable but I don't think any of the Villeneuves bothered as French Canadians!

BTW Cobh, formerly Queenstown is not the same place as Cork, Irish language name Corcaigh.

What is correct:

sport car racing
sportcar racing
sportcars racing
sports car racing
sportscar racing
sportscars racing ?

No - AFAIK.

'sports car racing' is the most comon useage.