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Vitesse2
According to the report in Motor Sport, Giunti had not passed Beltoise twice. In fact, if this is to be believed, he had not passed him at all. Selectively quoted, but nothing relevant omitted:

The 5-litre cars began making pit stops between the 32- and 35-lap marks and Giunti moved the Ferrari into the lead, followed by Beltoise, Stommelen and de Adamich. Just before he completed his 37th lap Beltoise ran out of fuel at the hairpin .....

Completing his 38th lap, Giunti followed Parkes' Ferrari out of the hairpin, pulled to one side as if to overtake and hit the Matra with enormous impact. The Ferrari spun up the road, burst into flames and tragically it was two minutes before the Italian driver was pulled from the wreckage, fatally injured.


The report makes it clear that all the leaders were on the same lap at this point in the race, so Giunti could have had no intimation of danger unless alerted by yellow flags - see next paragraph.

In the section of text I have omitted for clarity, the regulation prohibiting pushing is mentioned: "the Frenchman apparently had forgotten or disregarded this". It notes that several drivers reported near misses with the Matra "for Beltoise was not keeping to the side of the road and marshals were slow to put out the yellow flags".

The race was red flagged at the start-finish line, but "after a brief halt local driver Veiga went past it and soon the whole field was ignoring the mandatory signal". The report also says that "It was also argued that Beltoise should not have been allowed to push his car, but no marshals were near enough to stop his unusual action."
Slyder
We need a video of this accident so we can make solid conclusions.
cheesy poofs
Originally posted by Racer.Demon

The picture of the impact shows JPB at some eight or ten yards away - this cannot be the result of a split-second decision to bail out of a tight spot. That would have been a superhuman effort.

Since we can't accept supernatural powers and strengths on the part of JPB as a viable explanation, he must have left his car abandoned on the track some time before the impact.

This would put the blame squarely at JPB's feet. And how could the car be standing still on that slope? It may even have started rolling back - to the sudden amazement of Parkes, forcing him to jinx out to the left.


I was thinking the same thing. That would be a logical explanation because the picture that Felix posted is taken barely seconds after the impact. Now, if the Ferrari is travelling in excess of 100mph, there is now way JPB could have gotten away that far.
Slyder
Personally, I don't think that's JPB. He must be somewhere around there, probably behind the flaming cars, but not there.
bschenker
Possibly Beat, but how could he be that far away at the moment of impact?


Giuntis Ferrari have a direction more to the left (sorry its was a left hand corner) then the Matra woo was pushed away from Beltoise (must be behind the Ferrari in this Photo), together with a good reaction who is normal by a racing driver and considerate the position from Beltoise about 30-50meters (maybe more) back, so you have the idée of a bigger then the real distance. Remember the impact was in the corner.
RSNS
Regarding where Beltoise was at the moment of the accident I am quite positive: He was close to the car, and when he saw the tragedy, he jumped in the air and lifted his hands to the sides of his helmet.
Keir
I really feel that I must post here to end what I feel is a overly drawn out diatribe of a sad racing accident. I liked both Giunti and Beltoise and on that day they were both racing or trying to race.
Nothing can or could change what happened. Let's leave it at that. It was a different time and a different era. Beltoise wasn't the first nor the last driver to push his car on a race track!!
Ray Bell
...nor Giunti the first to make a mistake avoiding someone pushing their car.

Exactly right, Keir, a sad incident that's seen too much discussion over the years.
Racer.Demon
Originally posted by Keir
I really feel that I must post here to end what I feel is a overly drawn out diatribe of a sad racing accident. I liked both Giunti and Beltoise and on that day they were both racing or trying to race.
Nothing can or could change what happened. Let's leave it at that. It was a different time and a different era. Beltoise wasn't the first nor the last driver to push his car on a race track!!


Yes, different times, different attitudes, I agree, but frankly, Keir, the rest of your statement is way out of line.

"Let's leave it at that"? Well yes, let's leave every other issue discussed here "at that". There are people here merely trying to find out what exactly happened, as is a common treat among people with a historic interest, and it looks to me like it's done in an honest and open way. I see no reputations being dragged through the mud, nor is this thread "overly drawn out" compared to other matters or threads on this board. In fact, it has only just started. If this interesting event isn't among topics worth discussing, tell me what is.

Rant over, I hope you get my point...wink.gif
eldougo
frown.gif
Thanks Neville.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our views . My own conclusion - for what it is worth - was that Giunti was the unfortunate victim in more ways than one. The world lost a very fine driver driver on that January afternoon in 1971, and whatever your own views and opions are, let us pause for a moment and reflect on his memory.

Neville Mackay .
_______________________________________________


My own thoughts on this Thread, are it has been discussed in detail an more info would
be welcomed .A good man went that day an we are still trying to find out WHY????
Keir
Sorry to have ruffled a few feathers, but the reason Giunti died was "RACING".

Very plain and even more simple.

I am the last one to tell anyone how to or what to discuss on a thread, but again, this one is getting ghoulish.

It reminds me of a certain German magazine story of Rindt's death at Monza where there were endless photos of Rindt's blood covered body.

If you liked Giunti, then praise his life, his helmet design, his choice of wine for dinner!!

His death does not need rehashing!
Racer.Demon
Well, I disagree with you there, Keir. Life and motor racing are not just about great laughs and good wine.

There have been a few occasions where a closer examination of certain less cheerful events has led to rehabilition of some drivers, sometimes even in a wide circle (the Tripoli affair), and this might eventually lead to the same. I'm not saying it will, nor that it will be a success - it's most likely that it won't. But it's a valid subject, and by the looks of it it's discussed in a serious manner. Come on, you are not seriously suggesting that the people contributing to this thread are to be compared with sensationalist mag readers lusting over crash piccies?

Died of "racing"? That's a gross simplification. Although the less safety-aware mentality of the era should be taken into account when apportioning blame, a lot of things did go wrong, which rightfully caused an outrage at the time. There is still a sense that Giunti was an unnecessary casualty in a stupid accident.

(BTW, it's not that this is my topic, not even close, but I just thought that your remarks were a bit gratuit and off the mark. Please don't take any personal offence - I've always admired your jolly spirit. up.gif )
Keir
Racer demon,

Well said!

I will continue to be jolly over at the "famous Amon" thread.
up.gif
Reyna
Tribute to Ignazio Giunti...

Tim Murray
Originally posted by Pedro 917
From Louis Stanley's "Behind The Scenes" :

4. The rest of the drivers were aware of what he was doing. In the two laps preceding the accident, cars had gone past safely 44 times.


Originally posted by Vitesse2
According to the report in Motor Sport, Giunti had not passed Beltoise twice. In fact, if this is to be believed, he had not passed him at all.



Is it possible at least to determine conclusively which of these versions is correct? It seems unlikely to me that JPB could have come to a halt, undone his belts, got out of the car and pushed it a significant distance in less than two minutes.
Racer.Demon
Good point Tim.

So now we need video material and a lap chart...


BTW, Keir - you're a sport! up.gif
Reyna
Autosprint (italian motor sport magazine) january 11th, 1971


neville mackay
For the benefit of Keir, I should emphasise that I started this thread as part of a serious and sober minded attempt to unravel a complex and controversial affair that - like it or not - is an important part of racing history. It touches upon a range of issues to do with human judgement, attitudes towards safety, the roles and responsibilities of the different people involved in a race and the way in which rules are developed and interpreted. This is what makes it both so interesting and so complex. To imply that the various contributors - many of whom have gone to great trouble to think about the incident and to research facets of it - are somehow ghoulish or sensationalist is unfair at best and offensive at worst.

I accept that the subject of this thread may not be to everyone's taste. If so I suggest thay focus their energies on the many and varied alternatives for discussion that exist on TNF.

Neville Mackay
Pedro 917
One thing's for sure, it was a terrible accident as can be seen on this picture. Many things went wrong that day and yes, motor sport lost a promising driver. But I can't help feeling sorry for Beltoise too. Just imagine how he must have felt at that very moment. It's something he'll probably carry along for the rest of his days.....

Felix Muelas
Keir : We love you -the majority of the times- wink.gif but I am very much in agreement with Mattijs in his response. Actually I think it is impecable.

Rafa : Gracias for both the images. I am not sure the Autosprint one actually is near accurate, at least it looks like clashing with the Stanley version (or am I confusing left and right?)
Take a look at the graph:

Originally posted by Pedro 917
From Louis Stanley's "Behind The Scenes" : The Beltoise affair

11. Parkes and Giunti came next. The Englishman went past Beltoise's car on the left. Giunti was tucked in behind, pulling out slightly to the right as if preparing to overtake. That move produced the tragedy. The Ferrari clipped the Matra and burst into flames.


Arturo : I am most impressed with your comments. I have not yet "digested" all of them, I am specially trying to figure out that "blind spot" (zona ciega) from both JPB and Giunti´s point of view.

I think I am trying to follow your line of thinking (correct me if I am wrong) when you say that Giunti was expecting the Matra to be already stationary on the left, out of the track, but that would be a point where he would not see the car parked. So he just "assumed" that would be the place where JPB was directing his car when he saw it the previous lap, for instance. Up to that moment, let´s say the FIRST part of the move, being bloody dangerous, at least it was visible.

The SECOND part of the pushing is the one that, in your opinion, was unbelivable, and where you put all the blame on JPB. Attempting to cross the track with the car pushing it from let´s say the apex to the pits, in a BLIND area -from the point of view of the forthcoming cars- was nothing that could be done in two or three seconds...it was going to take much more. Nonetheless, JPB evaluated that -and got it all terribly wrong-.

Is that your opinion?

Neville : thanks for your -almost Mediterranean- defence of the thread. clap.gif
Frank S
Far from expert, I am experienced on and beside racing tracks. I agree and disagree with Keir:
Sorry to have ruffled a few feathers, but the reason Giunti died was "RACING".

Very plain and even more simple.


I think Keir is correct in asserting "RACING" as reason for the accident, but deny any possibility that it is either plain or simple.

Racing changes everything. It brings to the fore such competitive spirit as exists in drivers, sharpens and empowers it to an extent it is barely under control.

What I have found by being on race tracks is that even a mild, thoughtful, fearful person such as I can be drawn into instances and circumstances well removed from rational behavior. From many, many hours beside race tracks I learned that the true competitors are most likely to sacrifice legitimacy and safety in order to prevail, if their talent doesn't allow them to prevail at the moment.

My single most vociferous and heartfelt complaint against true competitors was and is that they fail to reduce speed sufficiently in standing- and waving-yellow situations. Their consistent attitude, expressed to me in numerous face-to-face confrontations, was, "I know how fast I can go to be safe in those circumstances. Anything comes up, I can handle it." In the case of subsequent accident due to excessive speed at yellow-flag scenes, they added some phrase constituting deflection of blame onto "accident" or the action of some other person.

In a properly configured racing scenario, every participant is alert and cognizant. They do not lose sight of the rules, nor of the roles of others.

I assign blame in this Giunti episode as follows:
Giunti - 10%
Parkes - 10%
Beltoise - 10%
Marshals - 10%
Chief/Operating Steward - 10%

As far as I can see from the "evidence" here, each of those named above was acting within the specifications of his job, as he had learned it, up to the point of the collision.

Giunti, Parkes, Beltoise had all learned to extract as much as possible from any circumstance: drive fast, don't slow when others do, or not as much; if you suffer a setback, try to recover as best you can; depend on those around you to give consideration and space in a squeeze; give that consideration only when inevitable disaster is the alternative.

Marshals had learned what to expect from drivers and race operators, and what to expect from each other and themselves: they are inconsiderable, ignored until after the accident, and vulnerable physically like no others at the track.

Chief/Operating Steward, responsible to all the varied (sometimes competing among themselves) interests, had learned all the lessons of competitors, marshals, and many others. His knowledge led to confidence that if each interest performed its task properly, things would eventually emerge as they should: sponsors money shows up and is well spent; racers show up and put on a good, safe event; organizers supply competent workers who pay attention and act appropriately in controlling spectators and participants; all in concert, and all in conformance with the written and unwritten rules.

Unwritten rules. Those are the ones responsible for the remaining fifty per cent. of blame. History.

Drivers know when they cut a corner or two and get away with it, they are regarded not always with disdain, but as "real competitors". They know none of their fellow drivers will complain (well, almost never), and will in all likelihood take the same course given the opportunity and need.

Marshals know drivers regard them as irritants, that any of their discriminative actions can be second-guessed, and that even though they have made formal and informal complaints, "the organization" responds with insufficient conviction that the marshals' position is valid. After the accident, requirements on marshals are a little more clearcut.

Chief/Operating Stewards have learned to balance competing interests. Or the frustrations of attempting to balance them. They know racers will complain if they are called to account durning a race on the basis of a marshal's complaint. They know marshals complain very little since their history tells them it is useless or worse, prejudicial to their organization and its future. Stewards know it is desirable to execute a smooth, efficient, program of events, that anything interfering with that or casting doubt upon its results is to be avoided when possible.

So there you have it: my plain and simple analysis of (some of) the other-than-physical-forces at work in the G-B affair.

Clearly, the major culprit was history, as each of the principals knew it. Given history, and circumstances, the accident was inevitable. Fifty per cent. of the problem was being there; the other fifty per cent. was impossible to change, and it was there, too.

Frank S
Keir
Thanks, Frank.

From my viewpoint, that of an ex-racer, I don't see any controversey or any need to overanalyze the events.

Giunti, for his part, was not the flavor of the month at Ferrari and here he was in a position to prove to Enzo that he was better than Reggazoni. that's what was going through his mind, not what Beltoise might have been doing. I've seen it a thousand times and before I die, I'll see it a thousand more.

For everyone's part on this thread, I know you that you feel the need to understand the events of that sad day, but once you've spent some time in the cockpit, it all becomes clear.

Racers race and sometimes when racers race, racers get killed.

I leave you with a line written about Pedro Rodriguez.

"Why doesn't someone tell Pedro it's raining!"
RSNS
Originally posted by Reyna
Autosprint (italian motor sport magazine) january 11th, 1971




This is in agreement with my memories except for the fact that Beltoise didn't 'run away': he just moved to the left part of the track - and was visibly appalled about what happened.

Parkes overtook the Matra by going right (and not, as Stanley says, the left, where there wasn't that much space), and Giunti plunged into the gap.

In answer to Keir, I'd like to say I agree that it was a racing accident: Giunti did die of racing. But isn't the Goodwood Moss accident a regular subject on the pages of TNF? This is a similar case, with an important plus: the need to clean Beltoise's name.

He has been accused of murderous behaviour. I think he was reckless, yes, but never murderous. I think Beltoise's name must be defended. Others may think otherwise. But I completely fail to see how somebody - except a psychopath, which Beltoise wasn't - could have consciously or purposefully put other drivers' lives at risk.


RSNS
Ray Bell
Well, I'm still unclear...

For a start, Slyder's first pic (and only the first one, the rest contribute nothing to understanding how it happened) shows that it was an uphill push for Beltoise and therefore took a while.

But then there's contradictory statements about where Parkes and Giunti went... according to the AutoSprint drawing he went left of Parkes and then left of Beltoise' car as Parkes went to the right of it... all logical thinking for a driver trying to get an advantage when he's not aware of what's over what is obviously a low crest (and around the car in front).

Beltoise had the added difficulty of not being able to steer as he pushed.

Then there's the Stanley version, which doesn't really make sense...

AutoSprint could possibly be a little biassed towards the deceased Italian driver's point of view... difficult.
Paul Newby
Originally posted by Reyna
Tribute to Ignazio Giunti...



Wow! I've never seen this image before. Such a clear image of his helmet. I wish I had this when I was getting my replica Giunti helmet painted.

What makes this even more said is that he is in the 312PB and it is clearly at Buenos Aires, note the YPF decal. Must be one of the last photos of Ignazio.

Keir alludes to Giunti not being flavour of the month. Could you expand on this, I know he lost his F1 drive to Regazzoni, was he promised any F1 in'71?

Also there isn't a lot known about his earlier career, maybe we can expand on this here, and yes, I have explored the other threads on Giunti
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by Felix Muelas

Arturo : I am most impressed with your comments. I have not yet "digested" all of them, I am specially trying to figure out that "blind spot" (zona ciega) from both JPB and Giunti´s point of view.

I think I am trying to follow your line of thinking (correct me if I am wrong) when you say that Giunti was expecting the Matra to be already stationary on the left, out of the track, but that would be a point where he would not see the car parked. So he just "assumed" that would be the place where JPB was directing his car when he saw it the previous lap, for instance. Up to that moment, let´s say the FIRST part of the move, being bloody dangerous, at least it was visible.

The SECOND part of the pushing is the one that, in your opinion, was unbelivable, and where you put all the blame on JPB. Attempting to cross the track with the car pushing it from let´s say the apex to the pits, in a BLIND area -from the point of view of the forthcoming cars- was nothing that could be done in two or three seconds...it was going to take much more. Nonetheless, JPB evaluated that -and got it all terribly wrong-.

Is that your opinion?



Felix,
Let's suppose we are in the cockpit of Giunti's Ferrari. We are close to the rear of Parkes' Ferrari, coming out of the hairpin in 2nd gear. At this point much more than a 60% of our front view would be blocked by the rear of Parkes' Ferrari. Our eyes are located at a lower level than the Ferrari's aileron, as can be seen in this picture


It is possible that this picture could have been taken at the exit of the Horquilla. Why ??
1. because of the wall and guard rail. THe only places where you can see that kind of wall that close is (was) in the case that the photographer would have been located in front of the grandstands, from the Horquilla up to the end of the pits OR at Turn 1. Notice also that the car is turning right ... imho coming out of the Horquilla.
2. the car seems to be going UPHILL. The only places where a car could go UPHILL at this track was coming out of the hairpin located after the Ascari turn .... this is not a valid option since there is no wall at the left of the track there .... AND at the exit of the Horquilla.
This imho implies that the only valid option is that this picture was taken when Giunti was coming out of the Horquilla.

So, if we imagine that this car was racing close behind another car with a similar height, it was impossible Giunti could have seen JPB's car coming out of the Horquilla. He had no time and no choice when he faced the rear of the Matra. I doubt that he could have even tried to avoid the accident.

If you zoom the following picture

and you imagine that the North is to the top end, the crest of the hill comes from the Northwest to the Southeast. You can see a sort of chicane located just at the exit of the Horquilla. Well after the left hander you can even see the Start/Finish line. That crest crosses the track before the S/F line.

IMHO, JPB begun to push his car after the exit of the Horquilla and he followed an almost straight line that pointed him right to the pits' building, passing near the apex of that turn ( the left hander), as can be clearly seen here


You described very well what I ment to say, except at this point "....Giunti was expecting the Matra to be already stationary on the left ... " . I ment that JPB's car could be stationary to the right of the track, just at or after the exit of the Horquilla.

Just to make me clear. I do not think JPB was a criminal and I do not think he did all this on purpose. I think his behaviour was clearly wrong and that he got the main responsability for this accident. The fact that Giunti was killed then is not important to qualify JPB's conduct. It was a sad consequence of JPB's behaviour, even if it was not JPB intention to kill anybody. I know that few people can think clearly when the heart is beating 160 times per minute BUT he had visited the Autodromo many times since the late 60s and he passed through those same turns maybe 150/200 times by 1971, to say the least.

THere is few more I can say about this incident. I know the place, I drove thorugh it and I have been watching races at the Autodromo since the late 60s. That sad day I was not near the zone of the incident, but I watched the TV clips recorded then and imho there is no doubt about who was the main responsable for that accident. Giunti's death was a bitter consequence of this accident.

Arturo
marhal
By the way..................is there a Beltoise´s interwiew, or anytime he spoke about the Giunti´s death??????. His book "Defense de Mourir" was written before the accident................Beltoise´s life was very sad, lost his wife, had a near fatal accident, his brother in law Cevert lost his life, etc.......................what is doing Beltoise in the present????????
Martyj
Then there's the Stanley version, which doesn't really make sense...


nor, unfortunately, much of the rest of his book.

"For the Record" is filled with so many loose facts that I've come to discount most of Stanley's versions of events. He seems to be quick to rewrite history if it means he can create a compelling narrative that places him at the center of events.

In the Beltoise case, I can't comment on the Giunti accident, but one can easily spot certain holes in Stanelys version, such as this accident happening shortly after JP joined BRM. Wrong - that was a full year away. Beltoise was a Matra driver in 1971. Then Stanely has JPB heroically winning Monaco in his first race for BRM. Not true. A simple glance at the stats from the 72 season show's JPB had several previous starts for BRM that year. Yet Stanely tells it this way to make the story more dramatic.

Dramatic, yes ... but so far off that it borders on fiction. And that's how I would view his version of the Giunti affair.

MARHAL: I think Beltoise became a driving instructor at a racing school in France. He may have had something to do with the career of IRL driver Stephan Gregoire, as JPB was spotted at the Indy 500 a couple of years ago when Gregoire was racing.
Catalina Park
Here is a different view.....

You have a driver that is closely following another car which is blocking his vision, so he could not see any unexpected hazzards ahead....

What if it was not Beltoise pushing his car and it was a car that had spun to a stop with a locked up gearbox, would Giunti have hit it instead?

You are very likely to have slow or limping cars near the pit entry in an endurance race and that is something that a driver should keep in mind when dicing with other cars.

Does anyone else recall Innes Ireland's story about pushing an F1 car through the Tunnel at Monaco?
ensign14
There is also the point that, according to the Autoweek article, JPB pushed the car across the track 1.5 times. How long would this have taken? Especially as Beltoise had an injured arm from a crash in the 60s?
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by Catalina Park
Here is a different view.....

You have a driver that is closely following another car which is blocking his vision, so he could not see any unexpected hazzards ahead....

What if it was not Beltoise pushing his car and it was a car that had spun to a stop with a locked up gearbox, would Giunti have hit it instead?

You are very likely to have slow or limping cars near the pit entry in an endurance race and that is something that a driver should keep in mind when dicing with other cars.

Does anyone else recall Innes Ireland's story about pushing an F1 car through the Tunnel at Monaco?


Did you notice that the pits that are shown in the pictures are completely empty ?? rolleyes.gif
The real pits were located (for this race only) around 300 meters ahead of JPB's car at the moment of the accident. JPB's car was far from being near the pits entrance.

Arturo
ChrisE
At the time it appears that JPB gave a TV interview justifying his actions. This was apparently carried on the Reuters News Agency.

See below for their full transcript:



ARGENTINA: FRENCH RACING DRIVER JEAN-PIERRE BELTOISE SAYS FATAL GRAND PRIX CRASH WAS NOT HIS FAULT Date: 17/01/1971
Ref: BGY101160002



17/01/1971

BGY101160002

ARGENTINA: FRENCH RACING DRIVER JEAN-PIERRE BELTOISE SAYS FATAL GRAND PRIX CRASH WAS NOT HIS FAULT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Story
French racing driver Jean-Pierre Beltoise is to appear before an investigating judge tomorrow (Monday Jan 18) as a result of the crash in the Buenos Aires Grand Prix on January 10 in which the Italian driver Ignazio Giunti died after his Ferrari hit Beltoise's car. At the time Beltoise was pushing his car after running out of petrol.
The judge is to decide if there is enough evidence to warrant further investigation into whether Beltoise should face charges of homicide through negligence.
Giunti died for burns after his car slammed into the Matra which the French driver was pushing along the track to the pits after running out of fuel. Today (Sunday) Beltoise, 33, was banned from competing in a Formula One race in Buenos Aires on January 24 for violating an international motor racing rule which states that a stalled car must be pushed to the side of the track immediately.
The dead driver had won the "Silver Helmet" trophy for the best Italian driver in 1966 and 1968. His colleagues in the Ferrari team are reported to be very bitter about his death.
Beltoise said yesterday (Saturday) that he did not think the accident was his fault.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference 616/71
Tape
Issue
Can 9120
Source Source to be verified
Restrictions Restrictions on certain uses may apply, and may vary from those listed.

Time code
Date original 16 Jan 1971
Duration 1.31
Technical D/N + TRK + L/POS/L/SP
Subset Reuters TV - RTV Post 1957
Location Buenos Aires, Argentina
Sound SOF IN FRENCH
Colourbw COLOUR

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. SV Beltoise seated on settee 0.10
2. SCU Beltoise speaking (SOF IN FRENCH TO END) 1.31
TRANSCRIPT: BELTOISE: (SEQ. 2) "I think that the accident was bound to happen as it was caused by an appalling number of circumstances. I think that most drivers would have acted as I did...they would have pushed the car, they would have tried to go back to the pits...I was at the end of a rather slow bend and there was plenty of room on the road to pass. The road was quite wide and I never thought there was any danger. Anyway I had to take the car away from the middle of the road, because it was stopped in the middle. Before the accident I never felt I was personally in danger nor did I feel that I was endangering other people's safety. I shall certainly not stay for the next event because the organisers have asked me not to compete. Personally. I would not have taken the decision to refuse to compete in that event because I was committed to do so and also because I think this accident was caused by a combination of circumstances and it did not occur through my fault."



This has been taken from the ITN/Reuters Archives which can be found on www.itnarchives.com


ChrisE
Vitesse2
Today (Sunday) Beltoise, 33, was banned from competing in a Formula One race in Buenos Aires on January 24 for violating an international motor racing rule which states that a stalled car must be pushed to the side of the track immediately.


More evidence of a CSI fudge due to the inadequacy of the regulations then. As I posted above, it was the responsibility of the marshals to ensure that happened, not the driver. If they didn't do it, then he was perfectly entitled to push the car up the track under International rules. It was a local rule which prohibited pushing.

The International regulations were actually self-contradictory until that extra decision was made in the wake of this accident.
ChrisE
Sorry that should have read www.itnarchive.com

ChrisE
Reyna
Here Beltoise is at 3/4 of the big bend wich goes into the finish straight.
He switches to the other side to take advantage of the camber, and this move will save him !!!!

BorderReiver
Originally posted by Reyna
Here Beltoise is at 3/4 of the big bend wich goes into the finish straight.
He switches to the other side to take advantage of the camber, and this move will save him !!!!



Thats an excellent photo, thankyou Reyna. Clears up a few questions I had in my own mind.
RSNS
Originally posted by Reyna
Here Beltoise is at 3/4 of the big bend wich goes into the finish straight.
He switches to the other side to take advantage of the camber, and this move will save him !!!!



Are you sure that was the place where the accident took place?

I ask because:

a) it seems to be the main straight (there are grid marks on it)
b) it doesn't seem to be a left hander
c) the spectators were not so near teh road (see the first picture posted in this thread)
d) Beltoise was at the left of his car when the accident took place.

At this point I'm sorry to say the original footage would be the only way of putting this matter to an end.

RSNS
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by RSNS


Are you sure that was the place where the accident took place?

I ask because:

a) it seems to be the main straight (there are grid marks on it)
b) it doesn't seem to be a left hander
c) the spectators were not so near teh road (see the first picture posted in this thread)
d) Beltoise was at the left of his car when the accident took place.

At this point I'm sorry to say the original footage would be the only way of putting this matter to an end.

RSNS


It is the same car with the same #26


The S/F line was located just at the exit the the last turn (see Felix's picture) and the grid marks were painted just before that S/D line.

In fact, the grid marks where the back of the grid was located started well in that last turn.

The fact that the spectators appeared to be close to the track is a visual effect due to the location of the photographer.

Beltoise was not at the left of his car when the accident happend. He was at the rear of his car more to the right rear side.

Those pictures are original pictures. The original footage showed a picture of the rear part of JPB's car, he pushing his car, something that passed very fast (Parkes) and a confusing picture when the crash happened 1/10th later.

This picture was taken SECONDS before the crash without any doubt imho.

Arturo
Ralliart
Alan Henry, in his "Flat-12" wrote 22 years ago:
"...when both Porsches made their pit stops, Giunti forged into the lead...on lap 37 Beltoise, running second, ran out of petrol coming out of the hairpin before the pits. The Matra stopped on the left-hand side of the circuit, a few hundred yards from the pits, which were uphill from this point. Beltoise, imprudently, began pushing his car along the circuit, keeping to the left hand side of the track, and then moved it across the track towards the pit entrance. At that point, Guinti...tucked in tightly behind...Parkes, came out of the hairpin and began to accelerate up towards the start/finish line. Parkes saw what Beltoise was trying to do and pulled to the left. Guinti, perhaps thinking that the Englishman was moving over for him, held his course and was suddenly presented with the almost stationary Matra right in his Ferrari's line of fire. In the split-second available to him Guinti had no chance to take avoiding action...The leading Ferrari had been due to make its first pit stop at the time and Arturo Merzario was waiting with his helmet and gloves on. Without giving it a second thought, Merzario vaulted the pit barrier and plunged into the flames in an effort to release his friend and compatriot...The race continued, albeit somewhat chaotically, as a red flag was initially shown at the start/finish line...but several drivers chose to ignore it and it was eventually withdrawn...
Looking at this, my conjecture/questions would be:
1 Guinti may have very possibly been about to enter pit lane to hand over to Merzario, so why would he move over irregardless of what Parkes did (short of braking heavily to avoid Beltoise and since Parkes didn't react abnormally when confronted with Beltoise there was no reason for Guinti to react abnormally.
2 With only 37 of the 164 laps run, Beltoise must've concluded that he was capable of pushing his car uphill to the pits, despite his handicap, and determined that he'd keep out of harm's way.
3 "Guinti...began to accelerate" would refute number one. However, do we know for certain that Guinti was accelerating when he made impact?
4 "Parkes...pulled to the left". Was Parkes' move gradual or abrupt?
5 Further evidence that the marshaling left a lot to be desired is provided.
RSNS
Originally posted by Arturo Pereira

[...]
Beltoise was not at the left of his car when the accident happend. He was at the rear of his car more to the right rear side.
[...]

Arturo


Are you absolutely sure? Because:

1) There wasn't that much room at the left of Beltoise for Parkes to overtake him by the left;

2) If Beltoise was at the rear of his car at the right he would most probably be hurt

I'm not questioning your statements, but my memories are so at variance with everybody else's... I think I saw the original TV ifootage about four times.

Now I may be wrong, memory being a dynamic thing: I may be reconstructing what happened in a different way. But it is so strong an image that I doubt I can be so wrong.

Anyone got the picture just before the accident when one can see the three cars?

RSNS
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by Ralliart
Alan Henry, in his "Flat-12" wrote 22 years ago:
"...when both Porsches made their pit stops, Giunti forged into the lead...on lap 37 Beltoise, running second, ran out of petrol coming out of the hairpin before the pits. The Matra stopped on the left-hand side of the circuit, a few hundred yards from the pits, which were uphill from this point. Beltoise, imprudently, began pushing his car along the circuit, keeping to the left hand side of the track, and then moved it across the track towards the pit entrance. At that point, Guinti...tucked in tightly behind...Parkes, came out of the hairpin and began to accelerate up towards the start/finish line. Parkes saw what Beltoise was trying to do and pulled to the left. Guinti, perhaps thinking that the Englishman was moving over for him, held his course and was suddenly presented with the almost stationary Matra right in his Ferrari's line of fire. In the split-second available to him Guinti had no chance to take avoiding action...The leading Ferrari had been due to make its first pit stop at the time and Arturo Merzario was waiting with his helmet and gloves on. Without giving it a second thought, Merzario vaulted the pit barrier and plunged into the flames in an effort to release his friend and compatriot...The race continued, albeit somewhat chaotically, as a red flag was initially shown at the start/finish line...but several drivers chose to ignore it and it was eventually withdrawn...
Looking at this, my conjecture/questions would be:
1 Guinti may have very possibly been about to enter pit lane to hand over to Merzario, so why would he move over irregardless of what Parkes did (short of braking heavily to avoid Beltoise and since Parkes didn't react abnormally when confronted with Beltoise there was no reason for Guinti to react abnormally.
2 With only 37 of the 164 laps run, Beltoise must've concluded that he was capable of pushing his car uphill to the pits, despite his handicap, and determined that he'd keep out of harm's way.
3 "Guinti...began to accelerate" would refute number one. However, do we know for certain that Guinti was accelerating when he made impact?
4 "Parkes...pulled to the left". Was Parkes' move gradual or abrupt?
5 Further evidence that the marshaling left a lot to be desired is provided.


There are some things wrong in "Flat-12" story:

1. "Matra stopped on the left-hand side of the circuit," ... this is incorrect. The Matra stopped on the right hand of the track, just at the exit of the turn aka Horquilla

2. "a few hundred yards from the pits, which were uphill from this point" ..... a few hundred yards were equivalent to 800 yards, to say the least. The pits that the SP cars were using were located AFTER the real pits building, actually downhill the main straight before Turn 1.

3. "Parkes saw what Beltoise was trying to do and pulled to the left. Guinti, perhaps thinking that the Englishman was moving over for him, held his course and was suddenly presented with the almost stationary Matra right in his Ferrari's line of fire. In the split-second available to him Guinti had no chance to take avoiding action...The leading Ferrari had been due to make its first pit stop at the time .." There is a contradiction here. Giunti followed the race line that send him to the crash because A. he was trying a pass ... OR B. he was going to pit. THe sector of the track where the crash happened is quite unusual to try a pass. Those cars use drafting to pass and so the logical point would be just before the end of the main straight, NEVER at the start of it. On the contrary, it is quite logical that Giunti followed a wider line because he was going to pit, but this is impossible to know.

4. "Arturo Merzario was waiting with his helmet and gloves on. Without giving it a second thought, Merzario vaulted the pit barrier ..." Merzario was located at around 550/600 yards from the place where the accident took place. There was no pit barrier in front of the pits building, as can be seen in Felix's picture.

As for your points:
1. I think Giunti did not have time to even brake. The impact was direct and at high speed
2. agree
3. the section of the track where the accident took place was a 100% accelerating zone. It was just at the start of the main straight, so accelerating would be the logical thing to do at that section.
4. I do not know if Parkes was ever asked about this point.
5. imho the race should have been stopped inmediately. A car was in flames in the middle of the main straight with its driver in the cockpit ... a nonsense.

Arturo
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by RSNS


Are you absolutely sure? Because:

1) There wasn't that much room at the left of Beltoise for Parkes to overtake him by the left;

2) If Beltoise was at the rear of his car at the right he would most probably be hurt

I'm not questioning your statements, but my memories are so at variance with everybody else's... I think I saw the original TV ifootage about four times.

Now I may be wrong, memory being a dynamic thing: I may be reconstructing what happened in a different way. But it is so strong an image that I doubt I can be so wrong.

Anyone got the picture just before the accident when one can see the three cars?

RSNS


Yes, I am sure that Beltoise was not at the LEFT of his car. If he would have been there, he would have been smashed by Parkes' Ferrari, and it did not happen. He was near the place where he is shown at Reyna's picture for what I can remember. I also saw several times the TV footage and it showed Beltoise pushing his car ... a shadow passing very close by the left side and then the explosion generated by the impact. I can not remember anything else nor I know if there is any recording of the incident at hand.

Arturo
RSNS
Originally posted by Arturo Pereira


Yes, I am sure that Beltoise was not at the LEFT of his car. If he would have been there, he would have been smashed by Parkes' Ferrari, and it did not happen. He was near the place where he is shown at Reyna's picture for what I can remember. I also saw several times the TV footage and it showed Beltoise pushing his car ... a shadow passing very close by the left side and then the explosion generated by the impact. I can not remember anything else nor I know if there is any recording of the incident at hand.

Arturo


So there it is. Our recollections differ completely; as I said I even remember the behaviour of Beltoise when the crash happened. Only the original footage would prove one of us -- perhaps both of us -- wrong.

So let's leave it at that.

smile.gif
Arturo Pereira
Originally posted by RSNS


So there it is. Our recollections differ completely; as I said I even remember the behaviour of Beltoise when the crash happened. Only the original footage would prove one of us -- perhaps both of us -- wrong.

So let's leave it at that.

smile.gif


Agree smile.gif
Felix Muelas
Estupendo: an agreement.

So now we have to locate either the original footage or more pictures in order to clarify the doubts that have arisen.

I am sure that footage of the accident should be available in one of the sites on the net whose speciality is precisely that one. Any ideas of where could we obtain a link to it?
Racer.Demon
Trouble is that these all specialize in GP/F1. ambivalent.gif

[cynical hat]

Is that because they are usually maintained by young people for whom:

1. Crashes are everything
2. F1 is everything
3. The current season is everything

[/cynical hat]
Felix Muelas
Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Trouble is that these all specialize in GP/F1. ambivalent.gif


Actually, I was quite optimistic when I wrote the above, and that was obviously BEFORE attempting to do any research myself...that has led me to very similar conclusions, Mattijs. :\

Anyway, let's not despair. Anyone out there with a clue? wink.gif

FM
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