I think the points expressed in this thread are very interesting, its awful that Guinti was killed, but there were waved yellows and this had been going on for a number of laps, not out of the blue. I wonder how people would feel about the incident if Guinti had instead mowed down 3 marshals and killed them but survived instead of crashing into Beltoise's car? I would be interested to see if they still think it was a tragic accident with no real blame to Giunti and just one of those things. If this had happend instead - it was a yellow flag situation after all and was a possibility if 3 marshals had decided enough was enough and had to get the car off, how would you then asses the accedent?

As an aside, can anyone tell me the calibre of driver Giunti was? I have know knowledge of him other than this crash, was he destined for the top or was he more of a middle order driver, getting the odd win here and there but nothing more than that? would appreciate your views just on his talent

He was quite a good second-tier runner. Showed little sign of challenging for the top, say, five or six...

DCN

I think you're perhaps being a little unfair there, Doug. In 1970 he had shared the winning car with Vaccarella at Sebring. They were second at Monza, third in the Targa (although I'll admit that one would have been mainly Nino!) and fourth at Spa. He then came third at Watkins Glen with Andretti and Ferrari seem to have thought highly enough of him to pair him with Ickx at Zeltweg (although they retired).

That season, adding in his fourth place in the Belgian GP, he achieved Graded status for 1971. Without wishing to sound controversial (or rude) my impression would be that unlike a lot of drivers in that situation he was probably aware of his limitations and not one to take unnecessary risks. Better than "journeyman" and (perhaps) flattered by his driving partners but certainly no Ickx, Siffert or Rodriguez.

I think I may have just argued myself into a corner there ...

Indeed. While everyone else was still running, he was a good second-tier runner in touring cars, sports-prototypes and Formula 1. Absolutely no shame in that.

Ah - I think I see what you mean. When I wrote "showed no sign of challenging for the top, say, five or six" I meant in the sense of driver pecking order - the top five or six drivers in the contemporary overall scheme of things - e.g. Rindt, Stewart, Ickx, Brabham, Hulme, Regazzoni etc.

DCN

Here is what Beltoise said afterwards. "I made a mistake, but where were the yellow flags?" From Autosprint #2 Jan 11-18 1971. "I admit that I should have never attempted that (push the car back to the pits), but at that instant, with the pits so close I thought I could do it. I also believed that with yellow flags, the other drivers would be able to see me. I am convince that there weren't any yellow flags shown. I don't understand how Giunti didn't see me because I saw them both (Parkes & Guint), and they should have both been able to see me. I had to push the car out of the way, because I could not have left it where it was (ran out of gas in middle of track) and then thought I could continue pushing it to the pits since it was so close. I hate what happened because not only was Guinti a great driver, he was a friend." He gave that statement to the police after returning to the track to gather his belongings.

Autosprint crucified him afterwards. They even printed the racing license rule (article 121 R) that it is illegal to push your car. According to the Autosprint diagram of the scenario. Beltoise pushed the car from the right of the track (apex of 180 right hander) across the track to the outside of the track (left) and then was trying to go back to the right side of the track to the pit lane when the tragedy happened. According to that he pushed his car across an active race track, which is completely absurd in my opinion.

Sorry I did not answer before.

The gradient is not very steep but there are some points to consider when talking about the chances that Giunti could have had to see Beltoise´s Matra before the crash:

By the time of the impact, Beltoise´s car was almost into the main straight. From that point, with the 1971 configuration of that section (it was modified after this race to make the cars slower at that same point for the F1 races), Giunti had no chances to see Beltoise´s car from the exit of the hairping, most probably a 2nd gear turn. From then on, it was full throttle till T1. The section that, with the 1971 configuration, went from the exit of the horquilla till the start of the main straight was 217,6 meters long. This 217 meters long section was a turn with a radius of 254 meters and a curvature of 49 degrees. The main straight was 620 meters long. I got this information from the original maps for the whole Autodromo that can be accessed through the Argentine Automovil Club. I used this information to help with the making of the Grand Prix Legends version of track #15.
I am not sure atm, but I guess Giunti´s Ferrari could make the hairping at about 70/80 mph and that same Ferrari could accellerate up to 150mph or so in 200 meters, all at full throttle. So at 120mph Giunti´s Ferrari would have made 200 meters in 4s. I guess that at that speed and running behing a taller and wider car, fighting for position, things happen very fast. Add to this that I doubt that Giunti would have expected that the Matra was where it was, and I think Giunti had little chances of even knowing what he was going to hit.

About the gradient being steep, I have some pictures I took of that section in the 1990s and of all the track in fact. The pictures were taken from onboard a Toyota Land Cruiser from a position that could be about and at least 1.5 meters higher than where could have been Giunti´s head. From that Toyota, I can barely see the exit of the 217.6 meters section, but a car as high as the Matra would have been very difficult to see, even from that Toyota. I will try to post those pictures tomorrow. So, sure the whole section does not look very steep, but imagine yourself driving with your head about 1m20cm from the track surface and things may look very different.

I have a CD called Las Temporadas Argentinas 1947-1972 compiled by Hernan Lopez Laiseca and Guillermo S. Iacona. THere is a long footage of that race and of the incident both in color and in b/w. In this case, recorded from the TV transmission I watched live. I did not see the YouTube videos but I guess they could show almost the same since there were not many recordings of that incident, that I know.

The b/w footage started showing Beltoise pushing his Matra when it was close to the left of the track, almost at the apex of that turn. By then, he was about 700 meters from the pits, which for this race were placed right after the standard pits were and are yet. So, if he was to the left of the track and the pits were 700 meters away but to the right of the track, it is obvious for me that he had the intention to push his car across the racing line in a straight that was run at speeds close to 250/300km/h.
It is true that the right hander hairpin was a 180 degrees turn and so, if Beltoise´s Matra slowed down there, it stopped closer to the right side of the turn, unless it had enough speed to stop at the middle of the uphill left hander turn that followed the hairpin.
Anyway, at the section where the accident happened, the absolutely usual raceline was close to the left side of the track. Just considering the b/w footage that shows Beltoise´s Matra being pushed closer to the left side and closing to the apex of the turn, it is clear that Beltoise was pushing his car onto the raceline and, if he pretended to get into the pits, he was going to push it onto the raceline again before entering the pits, which were located to the right of the track.
Imo, Beltoise decided to reach the pits using the shortest line but this line passed onto the raceline not once, but twice. If he would have pushed his car to the right of the left hander, he would have pushed his car only ONCE onto the raceline. Imo this could have also been extremely dangerous since by mid straight those cars could easlity run at 250/300km/h.

In any case, this was a quite unfortunate accident and I would not blame Beltoise for it just because I think he did not have the will to cause it, but I have no doubt that he was quite responsible for the whole tragedy.

btw, when the b/w footage starts, it shows 2 cars passing Beltoise´s Matra, one to the left and the other to the right. From then on, other cars were shown passing the Matra, all to the right of the Matra since there was no room between the Matra and the leftside of the track. By the time Parkes and Giunti came, there was barely room for one car to the left of the Matra. The color footage seems to indicate that Parkes´ Ferrari entered the left hander turn closer to the middle of the track and, right in front of Giunti, that Ferrari moved to the leftside of the track while Giunti´s car followed the same pattern closer to the leftside of the track.

Sorry about my english, but it is difficult for me to explain some points with fewer words

From the colour video it appears that they were using the short hairpin and not the long one. The speed would have been much lower using the short approach.

I'm confused by this. We established very early in this discussion that there was no specific rule forbidding pushing in the FIA Yellow Book (I've just checked the 1971 edition as well) and that it was only banned at a later meeting of the CSI:

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?show...t&p=1314496

Does this "article 121 R" rule refer to something in Appendix A (which covers licences and was published separately from the Yellow Book and which I don't have) or are Autosprint quoting something produced by the Italian CSA?

Maybe this "helps" - I have never seen it before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nirbIxyFrjQ...feature=related

See post 173, Stefan (and the ensuing discussion).

Sorry