Right you are Jim, but as we're speaking of facts... If I am not mistaken, tax roles indicate that the property taxes for RIR went to the County of Riverside - thereby indicating that the facility was located in the County.

I am trying to get my head around what significance that the small town of Edgemont has - Other than indirect revenues from the track upon said community was to their advantage no doubt, but as to lay claim to being the "town" that it was in?? That, I am not sure of.

Gentlemen, are we saying the closing date was July 2, 1989 or July 3, 1989.

Sorry to keep asking but we must get these dates correct as they can not be changed after engraving.

Will use September 21, 1957 as opening date.

I met with monument maker today and we will try to get these placed in the next 30 days.

Henry

Well, since Edgemont was a town on unincorporated Riverside County land from RIR's opening until late 1984.

And since it was the closest town to the track location (from spots on the RIR property one could literally throw a stone to houses or the fire station that were "in" Edgemont), that would seem to be pretty signifigant

As I mentioned in my post, the Wallen book gives a date of July 2. July 2 was a Sunday in 1989, so that seems all the more likely.

The Wallen book is the only source I have handy. I checked the on line archives of the Los Angeles Times (a perk of having a county library card) and was surprised to find no mention of the final weekend of Riverside International Raceway. Even with a fatal accident, I found no mention. That it was a club event and all the hoopla had gone to the final NASCAR race the year before, it's sort of understandable.

Copy the engraver will use for lettering on top of RIR bench.

Henry

According to what I placed on Wikipedia's page on RIR, I used 7-3-89 as the closing date for the raceway.

I finally got started indexing my 100's of VHS racing tapes last night. One of the first ones I watched has a short tribute to RIR shown on ESPN.

Poor Edgemont, never got any love

RIR was seven miles East of downtown Riverside (and at least three or four miles past it's easternmost city limit).

Jason, what was your source for July 3?

Of course, Jerry Punch talks of how immediately after the checkered for the NASCAR race, bulldozers would move in and the site would become "luxury homes". Track operated a year after and one of the last things built on the track site was a small tract of homes, none of them "luxury"

Other than that...

Jim,

What is your rational for the BoD of the Fritz Duda Company doing business on a Sunday? In all practicalities, the last order of business for RIR corp. management (in effect, to close it down) would have occurred on the next business day.

I can call or email Fritz Jr., but I'd rather not...

And on the location question Jim,

Could you show us in any publication that RIR produced, where they indicate the track is in Edgemont? If you don't have anything, I think Frank might have some material on that, and if he doesn't, then maybe Tam would...

I do not deny that RIR was in very close proximity to Edgemont, but for noteoriety and historical accuracy, would not the location be dictated by what was produced by the owners, operators and promoters of the races held at RIR? I just can't recall anything being stated as a reference to Edgemont in RIR programs or advertisements.

Thanks in advance for your enlightenment...

I was referring to what Jerry Punch said on ESPN in the opening to the final NASCAR Cup race at Riverside in June 1988, when the circuit not only wasn't bulldozed "immediately", but operated for almost 13 more months and didn't become "luxury homes with swimming pools".


I'd rather you get in contact with Dr. Punch and ask him about his comments and how he feels about his errors living on in perpetuity through others taking them as fact and quoting them or referring to them and about them being re-broadcast on ESPN Classic ;)

First, please don't take the tone of this the wrong way, I am simply stating my case and it is definitely nothing personal

I don't imagine Edgemont ever appeared in print other than a passing reference I read in a race report or sidebar story (IIRC, Competition Press & Autoweek). I certainly wouldn't expect anything in the programs stating so. Nor would I expect many to verbally utter Edgemont when referring to RIR. Does that make the actual geographic location somehow different?

There is also geographic accuracy. Or even simple accuracy (though I use simple advisedly ).

A larger question, is it accurate in any way if the closest town is not referred to as the site?

And if going by programs, is there any reference in 1985 through 1989 programs to the track being in Moreno Valley?

I would guess probably not, because after a point, it becomes habit. But, I ask, if there are references in programs to Moreno Valley...what then?

The track at the Fairgrounds in Imperial County has routinely been referred to as "El Centro". The reason, much like RIR, is that reporters sent their stories in from El Centro, even though the track is closer to the town of Imperial. While it causes confusion, because of a historical inaccuracy, I refer to it as Imperial.

There are many similar cases. Atlanta Motor Speedway being referred to as "Atlanta" instead of Hampton, Charlotte Motor Speedway being "Charlotte" instead of Harrisburg (yes, I know about the name change but I refuse to use sponsor names unless I'm being paid...well, not even then) and on and on and on. It's common to "move" a track to the nearest large city simply for marketing and media purposes. Again, does that mean the tracks aren't in the cities they are actually in?

Sorry to butt in here, but Richard's post reminded me of a long standing confusion regarding "Sharon Speedway". Most (if not all) press reports and statements "by the owners, operators and promoters" stated the track's location as Sharon, PA, the next big town and the source of the speedway's name, when in reality the track was located in... in Hartford, OH!

So, for "historical accuracy", do we have to accept the notion that the track was located in a different state just because it is "dictated by what was produced by the owners, operators and promoters"???

Gentlemen, then what should be the official start date? Date of incorporation, date of first event, date employees first punched the time clock, date papers were filed with authorities, etc.

Please lets not forget the original intent of the benches and that is for children and others to ask questions about drivers listed on the memorial and tracks indicated on the memorial benches. Oddly, it appears this is going to happen and there will be discussion based on what is being posted here. That is not a bad thing.

Henry

In all that post last night and I didn't refer directly to this passage.

What if it's historical inaccuracy that has been perpetuated?

And no, what owners, operators and promoters do shouldn't dictate accuracy. Accuracy should dictate accuracy, not convenience.

I wish I could find the CP&A article referring to Edgemont. IIRC, it stated "...which, as the locals know, is actually in Edgemont." I also recall some kind of joking reference that it was appropriate that it was in "Edgemont" (making a play out of - on edge).

But, more interestingly, I did want to post this...

From Dick Wallen's "Riverside Raceway - Palace of Speed"

Chapter One: The Dusty Palace by Michael Jordan and Bob Schilling, page 3

"The new raceway's 640 acre site was in Edgemont, southeast of downtown and just across the city limits." (now the "just" is not entirely accurate, making it seem closer than it was, especially in 1957).

Also, Michael, thanks for the Sharon Speedway example (edited for clarification)

Oh, I was addressing your post (#404) I'm with you on the Punch story...

Let me just bring up this salient point in the form of a question; is it more important to be technically accurate despite what the owners of the facilities depicted?

Michael’s reference to Sharon Speedway is also a perfect case in point. Funnily enough, that track is quite close to where I used to live and I remember spending a Saturday night or two with my (oh-so-patient) father watching the sprint cars whip around there. The largest draw of population would have been from Sharon, PA. Without knowing, I’ll bet that the first owners were from Sharon or very close by, and I’ll further speculate that they chose the name to create a greater attraction to the track than, say, Hartford, Ohio = huh, where? In all likelihood, the same marketing tactics were used for RIR.

BTW, I do believe that the commemorative reference to Riverside would be the county of rather than the city per se. Thank you for your research and arguments. Perhaps a postscript to future location references for circuits that have this confusion will appease us all.

Hi Jim and Richard,
Interesting how these things happen. The Augusta International Raceway is actually located only two miles from Hephzibah, Georgia (my home) yet it takes the name because of the city of Augusta. In fact the initial incorporation papers identified the facility as "The Augusta National Sports Center" in hopes of playing off the "Augusta National" and that golf tournament held each year. Of course, then as now, the Augusta National is the allmighty in this part of the world and the original name did not last long.

When the USRRC came to town in March 1964 most of the locals placed the name "Hephzibah Grand Prix" on the event. It stuck and I have heard this from numerous former drivers as we have done research on the former facility. Augie Pabst actually used the phrase in a conversation we had several years ago.

Discussion within our organization centered around the first/last event date being "user friendly" as the decades roll past. As we all realize, this granite will out live all taking part in these TNF discussions.

Henry

Kinda like how naming it "Road Flowery Branch" didn't make much sense?

Ok, it's obvious we're lost in semantics here, not only on this but across the board. Post #404 was simply me providing a final race date for RIR and citing the source. I interpret opening and closing dates to refer to first and last races held and I believe that is all Henry was looking for. So, that's what I provided Am I correct, Henry?


To me, yes, technically accurate is still greatly preferred over the alternative, technically inaccurate

Let me explain. In doing research for Allan E. Brown's "The History of America's Speedways - Past & Present", the goal was to locate race tracks as precisely as possible. To pinpoint their location. Through faulty memories, (ahem) marketing decisions regarding track names and duplicate/similar track names, tracks have often been mislocated. There has been a tremendous amount of confusion for those reasons. And that's all I have ever tried to accomplish - exact location.

There are several unusual situations, like tracks that were in towns/areas that have changed their names or have become part of another city. My knowledge of California history and geography (and research) helped me decipher some that otherwise would have been incorrectly located. There are some unique parallels with this for Edgemont, but that will have to be in a separate post.


There have been many cases like Sharon Speedway, particularly in bordering states. There is nothing wrong with naming a track after the nearest large city, that is quite common. But that doesn't make the actual location in that city and it leads to confusion as to exact location. The fact that people would go "huh, where?" is precisely why Hartford needs to be used more often . Marketing shouldn't overrule, or rule over, anything in real life. Richard, do you have a marketing background? ...is this a Dilbert moment?


Agreed. But again, if it's Riverside County (which it was), and Edgemont was the unincorporated community in Riverside County nearest the track, literally just past the gate...third base!

Where am I losing you in semantics here?

Should I even bring up Road Atlanta?

Thank you for the comments Richard.

As I recall, every time I took the Day Street exit off California 60, it said Sunnymead. Do think it was named for Riverside County. I spent a bit of time last evening searching the Riverside County tax rolls, which are on line, but gave up. I think a more diligent search might put an end to this question.
I went to about 3 or 4 "last races" at RIR. The only fatal I can recall must have been in a Solo 1 event. I used to run those there, but had moved to Arizona by that time. I recall hearing a Pantera had hit the end of the T1 wall. Not a good thing! I was in the tower when Allison did it in IROC. Maybe someone with more available time can search the County records a bit more, and nail this down.

Hey Jim,

Yes, it's matter of semantics I suppose - I read Henry's post as being when the place closed its doors so to speak. After all there was all sorts of things happening at RIR besides races, the place was leased for ads, movies and testing all the time - heck it's only 24 hours later .

Let me reiterate, I fully appreciate the need for accuracy when IDing the situs of a circuit for "technical reasons" that history demands. However, my perspectives towards this subject aren't so much as a marketing slant as they are a desire to give those who had the wherewithal to create, operate and maintain such a facility for so long, a bit of respect. (The stipulation in this case being, the circuit has ceased to exist). Moreover, in honoring those efforts we also acknowledge they were anything but easy. As you know in the case of RIR, there was many a rough patch behind the scenes... To hone that point, I doubt the city fathers of Edgemont had influence one way or another regarding the intricacies of the venture.

So, as a mark of respect to those who created, funded, nurtured and struggled to provide that famed venue (and by the same token, all those who carry forth such ventures big or small) that they might be remembered as they were portrayed - that's all.

I hope I'm not the pointy-haired boss in this Dilbert moment!

To that - Sharon Speedway has their location as Hartford, Ohio (on their website) just as it should be - and as you say and acknowledge, (if I read you correctly), the name over time becomes part and parcel of the legend that is the track - to change it almost seems sacrilegious. btw, Isn't the Blaney family running that show now?
So, sure, sometimes it does lead to confusion, but most times not I think - the locals and the enthusiasts know where Sharon Speedway is, (my family was from the Youngstown area about 30 miles away) and we never confused it with Deerfield or Eldora or anywhere else for that matter.

I suppose from historical point of view, to those assembling such material for those who aren't aware of the surroundings, it is important and I'll concede that high ground. I.e. I'll be the first to admit that I never knew Marlboro raceway in Maryland had a short track in its early years. But is it really that important for the observer? Surely, (in my mind anyway), 'Riverside' offers more identification than 'Edgemont' when portraying commemorations such as we are speaking of.

I'd like to add, I think it's great that you've gone to such efforts to identify the exact location of America's Speedways for Allan's book and such efforts should be expended for that historical accuracy. BTW, that "North American Motorsports Pages" site by isn't yours by chance is it?

Anyway, we can look at Braselton, GA, err Bloomington, GA err Road Atlanta* if you want, but maybe you should start another thread so we can sort all that out!

* that's what you were referring to right?

jm70 - I will be interested to see if you come to the same conclusions as I did when reviewing the tax roles. Please keep going.

The latter part of this thread kind reminds me of the "Liberty Bell".

There is a crack in the darn thing but it has sure represented its "billing" all of these years.

AIRPS was trying to identify the first/last race dates to keep things somewhat clean. Locations produce different opinions as we discovered in trying to identify if North Wilkesboro is/was located in Wilkesboro or North Wilkesboro.

The kids will get all of this figured out while sitting on the benches, eating sandwiches and reading about how productive TNF was back in the early 21st century.

Henry

That's why it's always important to know the track name and location, i.e. Sharon Speedway in Hartford, OH. Riverside International Raceway in Edgemont, CA. Eldora Speedway in Rossburg, OH - you're not going to send someone on an errand to find the town of "Eldora", are you?

Alright, can we now discuss whether it's Eldora or El Dora?

On occasion, we did get a couple of lost souls looking for Eldora and found Idora Park instead!

What you've said is undoubtedly correct Michael. However, the constructors had others plans - to see their venture be a success and factual locations be damned (apparently), they chose to name their facilities and guide their intended audience according to an independent plan.

"Respect mon..."


... and it's Eldora! I never knew it any other way...

You sure?



;)

Usually went in through Eucalyptus, so I don't recall definitely, but Sunnymead itself was another mile or two East and there was the Sunnymead Blvd. to get to it.

Sorry if I come off naive, but I'm still puzzled exactly what the tax rolls would determine

Ok, that's what I thought Richard RIR had some Phoenix-like qualities. I was surprised how much later it turned up in ads and recall seeing a helicopter shot from an Los Angeles TV station showing that the turn 6 bleachers were still up, several months after the last Cal Club race.

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with true location. If providing a list of names of those who were involved, absolutely. And I wonder how much of a role did Riverside's city/county fathers play in Rudy Cleye's dream? I'll have to check the Wallen book, which BTW, is very good about giving credit to folks involved in the behind the scenes. It's the first place I've seen the name of the circuit designer and the landscaper.

Considering it was county land, Edgemont didn't have city fathers. Maybe an informal town council, but I even wonder about that. It's not like anyone there would be receiving credit for the efforts of others.

I'm not sure what applies to who, it just was coming off very Dilbert-esque in general.

Sacrilege, thank you for using that term. I think perhaps there might be some that have viewed that my stating that Riverside International Raceway was actually in Edgemont, California was tantamount to re-naming it (or worse, that I am retroactively calling for it to be re-named). This isn't revisionist history for the sake of revisionism. Quite the opposite.

And, yes, the Blaney family operate Sharon Speedway and are part of the ownership group.

That's kind of the point about Edgemont. Only the locals know it, no one else does...and those are the people that most need to be made aware of the situation, because those are the people who will confuse it

Well, yes, but since it would still clearly read "Riverside International Raceway, Edgemont, California" what exactly is lost by that designation?


Thank you. Despite my contributions, there's so much more I could have contributed :\ No, the website is not mine.

Yes , pinpointing the location of Road Atlanta became a running joke within the racing press. More on that some other time too.

Dick Wallen's Book

Well, yeah, Mike I am... Those are cool clippings though – obviously, the track was advertised and promoted as such. (Do you have the full date of when those ads were produced?)

Let me try to give you an idea of my perspective: My dad said, "they're running some 'big-deal' races this Saturday night at Eldora". I heard it pronounced as one word, not El’ Dora as with some sort of Spanish inflection. Back-in-the-day, everyone we knew pronounced it Eldora. Come to think of it, I've never even seen an ad for the place until you posted those.

We are talking of a time when I was about 9 years old and then only for a few years did we go all the way out there. The ol’ man said get in the car – so I got in the Caddy and we got there just as the heat races started. Producing evidence as you have is great, but it doesn’t spark any specific memories. I am trying to remember what the signage looked like at the entrance of track, but it’s impossible of course. Do you have any photos (circa 1966) of the entrance area? It would interesting to see how it was spelled on the track’s signage back then – it may very well have been spelled like that, but I can’t remember.

BTW, the track advertises itself (and is confirmed here) as being in Rossburg Ohio, but technically, isn't it New Weston?

Well, again it might be a matter of semantics - when I refer to city fathers, I am speaking of the city council (which I am almost sure there would have been one) and other influential people that had some "pull" around those parts. As far as Riverside County goes, I would imagine development negotiations included property tax credits or deferments would have been granted to ease the developments' fiscal burdens early on. As to whether those details made it into Wallen's book, I'm not sure, I do not have my copy handy.

When looking up tax roles, there are parcel, map and book references that indicate exactly where the land is. In the historical records of such books, the demarcation references even in an unincorporated area such as Edgemont, would have specific boundaries. (though nothing is infallible and that would include such mapping). My research indicated that the entire section of land that RIR was developed on, rested in the county, not Edgemont. Edgemont was, as you say, a stone's throw away, but that isn't the same thing in my mind...

Richard, perhaps you have noticed that I myself use "Eldora", and not "El Dora", and I guess it would be the correct form, BUT...

Only very recently have I found ads from the fifties and sixties using the latter version, and with my curiosity sparked (always a very dangerous situation!), I made a couple of searches, and voilà: it seems that until the very early seventies, most if not all ads from the owners or promoters refered to "El Dora Speedway", with news, reports and the like mostly using "Eldora", very seldomly and with diminishing frequency "El Dora". I can only guess that the "official"/"correct" version was, initially at least, "El Dora", but that, with the press constantly getting it wrong, the track management finally gave in and used "Eldora" as well, from around 1970ish~. :\

Btw, the ads pictured in my earlier post are a random collection from the fifties and sixties. I could provide almost literally hundreds of those, if need be.

Richard,

Thanks for the explanation of the tax rolls and unincorporated town boundaries.

All semantics aside, do you agree that Edgemont was the closest town or community to the RIR site?

Any idea which page Jason?

On page 313 (chapter: "The Fat Lady Has Sung" by Bob Schilling), in the 2nd column, 3rd paragraph, the final race date is given as July 2 and it also is mentioned the final day being a Sunday. I checked the calendar for 1989 and July 2 was on a Sunday.

Did the book contradict itself?

The last race was on 7/2, but I thought it might have closed the next day (Monday) and I will update the closing date on Wikipedia

Initial benches are in place at the "5Wkids Outdoor Learning Area" located in Motorsports Memorial Plaza at the former Augusta International Raceway that is being developed into Diamond Lakes Regional Park.







The memorial project has officially expanded beyond Augusta to a national level and eventually will go international.

If your organization would like to place a bench in this area honoring a former track send me a PM for details. We are attempting to place enough seating for an entire classroom of children so they will ask questions about this sport that we all love.

Henry

That looks very sweet for both Riverside and North Wilkesboro, they are still missed.

(Wondering about Ontario, Rockingham, and a few others.......)

...are there any photos of Riverside's only F1 Grand Prix in 1960 please, or links to photos of that race.

Among the many photos on these pages, a few:
RIR Pics

And a couple here:
Motor Racing January 1961

--
Frank S
San Diego CA
USA

I am from sort of around there (Toledo) and far as I know it was always pronounced "eldora" - one word. We note that the old ads use "EL DORA" rather than "El Dora" so the two-syllable form may be no more than a typesetter's fancy.

Eldora (one word) was a sort of popular name for entertainment facilities in the American Midwest in the mid-20th century during the big-band dance era, for example Eldora Park, the trolley park near Pittsburg. Eldora in Ohio was a "ballroom" or dance hall before it was a race track. Earl Baltes was a sax player with a band called the Melody Makers (his brother Jimmy was the drummer I believe) and along with the Eldora, also operated the Crystal Ballroom maybe 10 or 15 miles east.

At some point, the story goes, Earl decided racing looked like fun and built the dirt track behind the ballroom. As I understand it, the track was 1/4 mile and then 3/8 mile before becoming a half-mile. There was also a mile oval out in the back of the property that was started but never finished. I believe the remains of it are still there. The dance hall, a low block structure typical or the area and the era, is still there too of course, and as far back as I can remember (early '60s or so) the name painted on the front in big cursive letters was "Eldora," one word.

And yes, Eldora is lots closer to New Weston that it is to Rossburg, but to get really technical about it the track is not in New Weston or Rossburg: These are both incorporated villages and the track lies outside the boundaries of either. At some point it must have been decided that more people could find Rossburg than New Weston. I guess.

Riverside Next March 27-29:
Riverside (Raceway) Legends Film Festival

Could be fun ...

--
Frank Sheffield
San Diego CA
USA

A long and very interesting piece about R.I.R. In 1957 I was 12 years old and my Dad took me out for the first race. He had, at the time, a 1950 Mercury. On the way up Box Springs the car overheated and we had to pull over to let it cool. I can remember being in a bit of a panic as I thought we were going to miss all the racing! I was fortunate to have a school friend who lived next door to a CHP officer who was involved with racing in some manner. We were able to get passes for almost all the events right up to late 60s when I moved away from Riverside. I also had a schoolfriend that was able to get into a couple of the garages on 8th St. during the 1960 GP. And watch the mechanics have their own GP up Box Springs to the track! It should be remembered that some great drag racing took place there as well. The SCTA (Southern California Timing Assoc.) ran half mile drags there in the late 50s (I think). Not to mention some great motorcycle races.
The debate on Edgemont was hilarious. Growing up I was always told Edgemont was the crossroads of 395 and Allesandro Blvd. And the "domain" exended as far as you could throw an stone in any direction. I still mourn its passing. Another mall was just what SoCal needed. I have refused to set foot in that mall and will continue do so.

Off topic, but since this part of the post is about spelling/pronunciation of place names, where is Pittsburg?

In California, halfway between Antioch and Concord (Bay Area).

So thats mid-western California?

Sorry, that was a typo, should have read Pittsburgh. As in western PA.

I just found this thread yesterday and it is quite a read. It is inspirational that Richard and others would devote so much time, energy, and I expect money to try to give something to the community, both the local community and the racing community, and it is depressing that the Peterson Museum or the Fritz Duda Company, or some combination of the two, withhold permission over some vague copyright issue.

After obtaining permission from local government, one would expect that the project would have made the major hurdle and the balance of the task, with the possible exception of funding, would be relatively simple - well, as simple as a project of this type can be - I am sure there was a lot of other work done.

Instead, it seems like Richard just received a lot of stonewalling and frustrating misinformation from the above two mentioned entities and I have little respect for the men who make the decisions at Peterson's or Duda's.

It should not take longer to obtain the permission needed to build a seven foot monument that it does to build a three mile racetrack, especially when the proposed monument would be free, would not interfere with anyone else's profit making opportunities, and would benefit the community.

I raced at Riverside in 1959 and 1960, attended a few practice sessions before that and attended a number of races.

I don't know Richard nor anyone else who was involved in this project, but I would like to thank Richard and all of those who helped him for all that they did.

Regards, Jim.

I don't know if you know about this.

"Riverside Raceway Museum "Legends of Riverside" Event Features Films, Food, Friends, & Famed Riverside Racers
Whether you attended every event that was ever run, or never even got there once in person, just the mention of the name: "Riverside" stirs the soul of all true motor sports fans. The iconic track "only 60 miles from Los Angeles" closed forever in 1989, its exact location now overgrown by a covey of standard-looking suburban homes, a couple of fast food-"convenience" stores, and a forlorn, half-empty shopping mall."

Take a look at www.legendsofriverside.com

Just thought I'd help.

Gil

Yes, Joe Weatherly paid the ultimate price somewhere between a hot dog stand and shoe store at the mall. Sad, so sad!

Henry

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc6TNhXM7TI