All: This comment by Dave Ware from the Doug Revson Thread brought me up short.
"And I've always felt bad for his family, losing two sons to the cruel sport."
Cruel Sport? Not hardly.
I did a piece after Gilles Villeneuve's death at Zolder, in response to one of those weepy "Poor driver forced to drive unsafe racing cars," articles. Below is the gist of the response.
It is especially timely after what happened at Daytona earlier today.
"Nobody has ever held a gun to a racing driver's head and said. "Get in that race car and go as fast as you can to see if you can kill yourself."
Racing drivers are special people who are supremely confident in their ability to race high powered sophisticated automobiles against other supremely confident special people.
It is more likely that you would have to hold a gun on a professional racing driver to stay out of a racing car!
None of them considers that they shall die in an auto racing accident.
Having personal knowledge of what it is like to make an error in a race car, I can also tell you that the first thought in my mind was not "Oh, I'm gonna die!"
My first thought was. "They aren't gonna be happy about this!" You see, it wasn't my car and I was not happy with myself at the time. My next thought was. "If I get into this again, I gotta remember not to do that." It was a simple case of having over corrected a slide and spewing dirt and stuff all over the track.
When Gilles Villeneuve drove over the rear wheel of Jochen Mass' Arrows, his first thought more than likely was. "Oopps! I didn't want to do that!"
I do not necessarily feel sorry for Gilles Villeneuve. I do feel sorry that he died. But, I know he died doing what he wanted to do and what he believed that he could do best.
In my life and particularly as a military person I have placed myself in pecarious positions such as volunteering to fly in an unarmed reconnaissance airplane into an area where (if the bad guys wanted to, as the North Koreans did to our EC-121 on April 15, 1969) they could shoot me and the others of the crew out of the sky and that would be it.
I can tell you that I would have preferred (if it had happened) that my friends and family celebrated my life rather than mourn my passing. And when I do go, I hope that everyone celebrates my life."
Dale Earnhardt's thoughts were more than likely similar. He didn't think he was going to die! He probably thought. "Shit! I'm not going to get to celebrate with Mikey and Junior." I do feel sorry that Dale Earnhardt died. I feel good that he died doing what he enjoyed doing!
Gil Bouffard
http://www.norpaccrows.org
Full Version: Racing fatalities - death while on the job
To quote directly from the Bruce McLaren Trust website:
"To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with ones ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone"
I think this says it all.
"To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with ones ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone"
I think this says it all.
I'm sure Bruce wrote that himself, I don't remember what death prompted it, but it sticks with his memory. Remember that he grew up with Polio and had overcome that to be where he was... indeed, to try 'to do better.'
Ray, it was after Tim Mayer's death at Longford.
Gil, for the most part I agree with your comments and have since I was 17. I rather doubt that your attitude reflected in your post would offer much real solace to Peter and Doug's mother or father, and that is what I was getting at.
I took a look at the reissue of "The Unfair Advantage" and read the intro by David Donahue and his brother. They indicated that they would have been happier if their dad had sat in an engineering office all his life and never sat in a race car. I don't think they're especially happy that their father died doing what he loved best, and I rather doubt that the Revson family feels good about their loss, either.
If a person wants to risk his or her life doing a certain thing that's their business. But it does leave the families holding the short end of the stick, hoping their loved one doesn't snuff it and then, if it happens, living with that loss. They didn't choose that route.
Also, the "he died doing what he loved best" mantra has been wearing thin on me lately. I don't feel good that Earnhart died doing what he loved best. I wish he had lived another 30 or 40 years to die of old age. I'm sure his family would have preferred that also.
Dave
I took a look at the reissue of "The Unfair Advantage" and read the intro by David Donahue and his brother. They indicated that they would have been happier if their dad had sat in an engineering office all his life and never sat in a race car. I don't think they're especially happy that their father died doing what he loved best, and I rather doubt that the Revson family feels good about their loss, either.
If a person wants to risk his or her life doing a certain thing that's their business. But it does leave the families holding the short end of the stick, hoping their loved one doesn't snuff it and then, if it happens, living with that loss. They didn't choose that route.
Also, the "he died doing what he loved best" mantra has been wearing thin on me lately. I don't feel good that Earnhart died doing what he loved best. I wish he had lived another 30 or 40 years to die of old age. I'm sure his family would have preferred that also.
Dave
Yep, Just like Tazio Nuvolari. Old, infirmed, racked with pain and unable to breath...Much better.
You want to know what the real "cruel sport," is?
It's life!
Why?
Because you come into it not knowing that you are going to die someday. Not knowing how you are going to die and not knowing when you are going to die!
The cruelty of life is that because a boyfriend or a crack mother was upset because a baby was crying, a young child never gets to grow up.
The cruelty of life is that a thirteen year old girl gets thrown off a horse and breaks her neck and dies.
My wife spent nearly twenty years caring for little kids who had incurable cancer. That's the cruelty of life!
To be fifty or sixty years old and die doing whatever your profession may be means that you have spent a lifetime doing what you wanted to do, contributed and experienced LIVING.
I've lost many people that I knew who raced cars for a living. I've lost people that I knew in battle.
I think it is wonderful that David Donohue and his brother would have preferred that their dad had sat in an office somewhere. However, that is selfish. I don't think that their dad would have liked it, or else he wouldn't have been doing what he did.
Yes, Families loose a loved one. But, families are richer for having had that loved one in their life for however long it was.
That you may not agree is fine. But don't blame the individual or his profession.
To place emphasis on a homoly that I continually use as a joke. "He knew the job was dangerous when he accepted it."
Gil Bouffard
http://www.norpaccrows.org
You want to know what the real "cruel sport," is?
It's life!
Why?
Because you come into it not knowing that you are going to die someday. Not knowing how you are going to die and not knowing when you are going to die!
The cruelty of life is that because a boyfriend or a crack mother was upset because a baby was crying, a young child never gets to grow up.
The cruelty of life is that a thirteen year old girl gets thrown off a horse and breaks her neck and dies.
My wife spent nearly twenty years caring for little kids who had incurable cancer. That's the cruelty of life!
To be fifty or sixty years old and die doing whatever your profession may be means that you have spent a lifetime doing what you wanted to do, contributed and experienced LIVING.
I've lost many people that I knew who raced cars for a living. I've lost people that I knew in battle.
I think it is wonderful that David Donohue and his brother would have preferred that their dad had sat in an office somewhere. However, that is selfish. I don't think that their dad would have liked it, or else he wouldn't have been doing what he did.
Yes, Families loose a loved one. But, families are richer for having had that loved one in their life for however long it was.
That you may not agree is fine. But don't blame the individual or his profession.
To place emphasis on a homoly that I continually use as a joke. "He knew the job was dangerous when he accepted it."
Gil Bouffard
http://www.norpaccrows.org
Gil,
Are you sure that it wasn't an indirect reference to D. Gurney remark about racing being a "cruel sport?"
Are you sure that it wasn't an indirect reference to D. Gurney remark about racing being a "cruel sport?"
As one of my friends was dying of cancer, aged a ripe old 34, he bought a F5000 Lola T400, painted it the way he wanted, put his name on it, made sure it was right.
He went to Oran Park and drove five slow laps - slow because he didn't want to make headlines that would put the sport in disrepute if he got it wrong. Then his brother and friend lifted his by-now limp body from the car and they gave him his first morpheine.
Nine months earlier he had been fit and well, totally unaware of any problems except a small lump on his leg, and his dream of driving a F5000 was slipping away as the category lurched into its death throes.
Now he had achieved his dream. The morpheine put him on a high. He'd not had it before because he wanted to be totally concious of everything he did.
Two days later, this true Champion in his world of Motor Racing died.
This is a closet that's sometimes better left shut...
He went to Oran Park and drove five slow laps - slow because he didn't want to make headlines that would put the sport in disrepute if he got it wrong. Then his brother and friend lifted his by-now limp body from the car and they gave him his first morpheine.
Nine months earlier he had been fit and well, totally unaware of any problems except a small lump on his leg, and his dream of driving a F5000 was slipping away as the category lurched into its death throes.
Now he had achieved his dream. The morpheine put him on a high. He'd not had it before because he wanted to be totally concious of everything he did.
Two days later, this true Champion in his world of Motor Racing died.
This is a closet that's sometimes better left shut...
Ray,
A friend sent me this...
"Don't cry because its over; smile because it happened."
Gil Bouffard
http://www.norpaccrows.org
A friend sent me this...
"Don't cry because its over; smile because it happened."
Gil Bouffard
http://www.norpaccrows.org
The way Solomon put it, Gil, was;
A good reputation is more valuable than the most expensive perfume. The day a man dies is better than the day he is born! It is better to spend your time at funerals than at festivals. For you are going to die and it is a good thing to think about it while there is still time. Sorrow is better than laughter, for sadness has a refining influence on us. Yes, a wise man thinks much of death, while the fool thinks only of having a good time now.Eccl. 7:1-4
A good reputation is more valuable than the most expensive perfume. The day a man dies is better than the day he is born! It is better to spend your time at funerals than at festivals. For you are going to die and it is a good thing to think about it while there is still time. Sorrow is better than laughter, for sadness has a refining influence on us. Yes, a wise man thinks much of death, while the fool thinks only of having a good time now.Eccl. 7:1-4
Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
I think it is wonderful that David Donohue and his brother would have preferred that their dad had sat in an office somewhere. However, that is selfish. I don't think that their dad would have liked it, or else he wouldn't have been doing what he did.
Yes, Families loose a loved one. But, families are richer for having had that loved one in their life for however long it was.
I think it is wonderful that David Donohue and his brother would have preferred that their dad had sat in an office somewhere. However, that is selfish. I don't think that their dad would have liked it, or else he wouldn't have been doing what he did.
Yes, Families loose a loved one. But, families are richer for having had that loved one in their life for however long it was.
Sorry Gil, but I think there's something you forget when accusing David Donohue and his brother of being selfish.
To my mind selfishness is something that cuts both ways. If someone is a parent then they may have to temper their own desires to fulfill their role as a parent. Surely, it can be considered selfish on their part to ignore those responsibilities?
The children of those who lose their lives pursuing what is a selfish sport have every right to feel at least some bitterness.
I guess the hard part in life is where do you draw the line between your responsibility to others and your responsibility to yourself, and your dreams and aspirations.
Do I think Donohue, Earnhardt and the rest shouldn't have taken part in the sport after becoming fathers? Nope, but I do feel that it's something that you have to look at from both sides.
I have to chime in here as an ex-driver.
Everyone has a void in their lives that must, at some time, be filled. Autoracing did it for me for a while and I wish that I had the time, money and freedom to still be filling that void, but right now, that isn't the case.
I have always held to the providence that one must celebrate life with whatever means are available. Race drivers, by their very nature, get to do it every day. I envy them, I envy Alain DeCadenet, because he gets to drive all those great old cars. Given the chance, I'd be back in a racecar in half a heartbeat and I really wouldn't be spending too much time on the safety issues. I remember a crash I had in 1982, I had overdone it at one of the fastest parts of the circuit and as I was heading nose first into a tire wall "at speed", I thought to myself, "I'm going to break the car!!" Now that would have been a funny last thought, but as I'm here writing this, I guess I'll have many more chances to improve on my last line!!
Cruel sport? Not for me!!![p][smallfont][Edited by Keir on 02-20-2001][/smallfont]
Everyone has a void in their lives that must, at some time, be filled. Autoracing did it for me for a while and I wish that I had the time, money and freedom to still be filling that void, but right now, that isn't the case.
I have always held to the providence that one must celebrate life with whatever means are available. Race drivers, by their very nature, get to do it every day. I envy them, I envy Alain DeCadenet, because he gets to drive all those great old cars. Given the chance, I'd be back in a racecar in half a heartbeat and I really wouldn't be spending too much time on the safety issues. I remember a crash I had in 1982, I had overdone it at one of the fastest parts of the circuit and as I was heading nose first into a tire wall "at speed", I thought to myself, "I'm going to break the car!!" Now that would have been a funny last thought, but as I'm here writing this, I guess I'll have many more chances to improve on my last line!!
Cruel sport? Not for me!!![p][smallfont][Edited by Keir on 02-20-2001][/smallfont]
A two-part question for the racing drivers on the board.
Does the knowledge that it might kill you
enhance the pleasure that you get from
racing?
Or is it just a risk that comes along
with something that would be just as
fun even if had no risk whatsoever?
Does the knowledge that it might kill you
enhance the pleasure that you get from
racing?
Or is it just a risk that comes along
with something that would be just as
fun even if had no risk whatsoever?
Never thought of it. Not once. Not as a real possibility... but I was in a minor class in which I had never known a fatality.
Keir, of course, was going so slowly (Formula Vee, after all!) that he had time to come up with several famous last words...
On the road we take greater risks, I believe, but I rarely feel I am ever out in that arena where the risks are significant. I could always be proved wrong, however, and there have been moments I have looked back on and said, "Whew, that was close..." or something like that.
That said, the difference between no crash at all and everyone being dead can be as little as a millimetre...
Keir, of course, was going so slowly (Formula Vee, after all!) that he had time to come up with several famous last words...
On the road we take greater risks, I believe, but I rarely feel I am ever out in that arena where the risks are significant. I could always be proved wrong, however, and there have been moments I have looked back on and said, "Whew, that was close..." or something like that.
That said, the difference between no crash at all and everyone being dead can be as little as a millimetre...
As Ray would tell you, speed is relative. Maybe those down under Vees go slowly, but up here, they move along quite nicely!!!
Back to the question. As Jean Pierre Sarti said in "Grand Prix", racing drivers have to have a certain lack of imagination. I found that always worked for me and you tend to be pretty busy inside the car to do any daydreaming.
That and the fact that so very few people can really drive st the very limit and really enjoy it.
Back to the question. As Jean Pierre Sarti said in "Grand Prix", racing drivers have to have a certain lack of imagination. I found that always worked for me and you tend to be pretty busy inside the car to do any daydreaming.
That and the fact that so very few people can really drive st the very limit and really enjoy it.
Where in America do Vees get a steeply downhill straight that runs over a mile and a quarter, Keir?
Bathurst's Conrod Straight would have to be the fastest place a Vee (to the original specs) ever ran...
Anyway, I was just having a go at you!
Bathurst's Conrod Straight would have to be the fastest place a Vee (to the original specs) ever ran...
Anyway, I was just having a go at you!
Ray,
I think that Conrod would float any Vees' valve springs,
but the tri-oval section at Pocono, the back straight at Watkins Glen, and Road America all come to mind as places where Vees can really get their head.
As usual, Ray, I knew you were jabbing!!!
I think that Conrod would float any Vees' valve springs,
but the tri-oval section at Pocono, the back straight at Watkins Glen, and Road America all come to mind as places where Vees can really get their head.
As usual, Ray, I knew you were jabbing!!!
At least we've got some perspective again, Keir.
Not for me it doesnt. The thrill was going fast at first, the 'weeeee' factor when I had just turned 17. Now the fun is in pushing the physics of the corners.
The first time I ever crashed I had a big one backwards into the wall out of a flat in top sweeper (the kink at RA) and it absolutely knocked the confidence out of me. I became too aware of losing control of the vehicle and its consequences. Took me pretty much from September 97 to July 2000 to get even close to where I was before. Wasted 9 races driving less than my ability. My racecraft didnt suffer at all, I was just pulling mindnumbing passes on the guys in 12th instead of 2nd. My tests in the UK were lacklustre as well. Fortunately the Vector team is a true race team and the team owner had the experience of some F1 drivers going through his cars that he was able to identify lack of confidence and lack of ability
The first time I ever crashed I had a big one backwards into the wall out of a flat in top sweeper (the kink at RA) and it absolutely knocked the confidence out of me. I became too aware of losing control of the vehicle and its consequences. Took me pretty much from September 97 to July 2000 to get even close to where I was before. Wasted 9 races driving less than my ability. My racecraft didnt suffer at all, I was just pulling mindnumbing passes on the guys in 12th instead of 2nd. My tests in the UK were lacklustre as well. Fortunately the Vector team is a true race team and the team owner had the experience of some F1 drivers going through his cars that he was able to identify lack of confidence and lack of ability
Ross,
wow, a nearly three year slump.
I'm glad to hear that you're
on the upside now.
I guess you can relate to Fisi's
downturn after two big shunts
in short order in 2000, only to have
Flavio "Mr.Empathy" Briatore stand
on his d**k for lack of zip.
Here's to better things in 2001
wow, a nearly three year slump.
I'm glad to hear that you're
on the upside now.
I guess you can relate to Fisi's
downturn after two big shunts
in short order in 2000, only to have
Flavio "Mr.Empathy" Briatore stand
on his d**k for lack of zip.
Here's to better things in 2001
yeah it sucked, my crash was on Saturday practice before my first ever race. I was running around 5th 6th in practice throughout the weekend in the semi-quick group of guys. The problem with all the cars being maintained by the series is that there's no one 'in my corner' to help me out. It took a few laps in the data aquisition car to show that it was flat out lack of confidence in the corners that was keeping my lap times down.
What really did it was I managed to get a great start one day and was running third approaching my least favorite corner and I just said to myself "well if you're ever going to have a chance in your life, you better not lift" and took the kink flat out. Now im probably the fastest guy through there
Suddenly in a single weekend im finishing on the podium, leading races, setting fastest laps, etc
Most people refuse to accept it, but I think its the same story at F1 level, its probably even worse. Racing is heavily a mental exercise
What really did it was I managed to get a great start one day and was running third approaching my least favorite corner and I just said to myself "well if you're ever going to have a chance in your life, you better not lift" and took the kink flat out. Now im probably the fastest guy through there
Suddenly in a single weekend im finishing on the podium, leading races, setting fastest laps, etc
Most people refuse to accept it, but I think its the same story at F1 level, its probably even worse. Racing is heavily a mental exercise
Sorry, somewhat off-topic but did not want to start additional thread on this bad news.
A 60-year-old man participating in the Richard Petty Driving Experience died Sunday after crashing into a retaining wall.
Robert Boswell, of Apopka, was on his fourth lap of an eight-lap session when he began driving erratically and slid down the embankment of turn No. 2, said Chris McKee, spokesman for the driving experience. Boswell struck a retaining wall.
He was taken to Halifax Health Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. The medical examiner says Boswell died "of a heart attack and not any mechanical issue with the car, according to a news release from the Petty Driving Experience.
Daytona Beach Police said they received word from the medical examiner's office that Boswell died from a "medical condition." Spokesman Jimmie Flynt would not elaborate, citing medical privacy laws, and said a full autopsy report had not been completed.
Boswell's son, Greg, said they did not know what caused his father's death. The two were part of a 20-driver class, and Greg Boswell said he was scheduled to drive around the track next.
The family had given Robert the driving experience package as a 60th birthday present. "He was as happy as he could be," Greg Boswell said.
He called his father a wonderful man and "one of the greatest men to walk the earth."
An autopsy is scheduled to determine the cause of death. Daytona Beach Police, as part of standard procedure, impounded the 600-horsepower stock car and McKee said the organization will inspect it for any issues. He said the car did not have any signs prior of any malfunctions and he did not know whether any of the other participants had used the car earlier in the afternoon.
The Richard Petty Driving Experience is offered at several tracks across the country, including Daytona and at Walt Disney World, giving racing enthusiasts the opportunity to ride along or get behind the wheel. Ride-alongs put participants shotgun in a stock car flying more than 150 mph. Drivers can purchase a number of personal experiences, from eight laps around the track and costing $399 to the advanced racing experience for $2999.
McKee said the experience at Daytona will resume on its next scheduled date, Feb. 11.
A 60-year-old man participating in the Richard Petty Driving Experience died Sunday after crashing into a retaining wall.
Robert Boswell, of Apopka, was on his fourth lap of an eight-lap session when he began driving erratically and slid down the embankment of turn No. 2, said Chris McKee, spokesman for the driving experience. Boswell struck a retaining wall.
He was taken to Halifax Health Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. The medical examiner says Boswell died "of a heart attack and not any mechanical issue with the car, according to a news release from the Petty Driving Experience.
Daytona Beach Police said they received word from the medical examiner's office that Boswell died from a "medical condition." Spokesman Jimmie Flynt would not elaborate, citing medical privacy laws, and said a full autopsy report had not been completed.
Boswell's son, Greg, said they did not know what caused his father's death. The two were part of a 20-driver class, and Greg Boswell said he was scheduled to drive around the track next.
The family had given Robert the driving experience package as a 60th birthday present. "He was as happy as he could be," Greg Boswell said.
He called his father a wonderful man and "one of the greatest men to walk the earth."
An autopsy is scheduled to determine the cause of death. Daytona Beach Police, as part of standard procedure, impounded the 600-horsepower stock car and McKee said the organization will inspect it for any issues. He said the car did not have any signs prior of any malfunctions and he did not know whether any of the other participants had used the car earlier in the afternoon.
The Richard Petty Driving Experience is offered at several tracks across the country, including Daytona and at Walt Disney World, giving racing enthusiasts the opportunity to ride along or get behind the wheel. Ride-alongs put participants shotgun in a stock car flying more than 150 mph. Drivers can purchase a number of personal experiences, from eight laps around the track and costing $399 to the advanced racing experience for $2999.
McKee said the experience at Daytona will resume on its next scheduled date, Feb. 11.
We recently had a similar death in Australia... I don't know the reasons or the outcome, but I think it made the 'Ultimate Price' thread...
And then, in the fullness of time, a partial answer for this one:
Recently, David Donohue gave a bunch of audio tapes to Mike Argetsinger...
Mike is writing the Donohue biography, a follow up to his Walt Hansgen effort. Obviously he is talking to the Donohues quite a bit and David decided he could use these tapes.
They're the interviews that the writer of the famous Unfair Advantage book did with his father. A great deal of it is technical stuff, as is that book, but Mike is able to sift through that to find more information about the man and his racing.
He found it absolutely surreal, he told me, that as he drove back to Chicago playing the tapes in his car, he was hearing the voice of a man who died over thirty years ago. And that the voice was virtually identical to the one of the man who'd handed him the tapes!
Where is Gil these days, by the way?
And then, in the fullness of time, a partial answer for this one:
Originally posted by Option1
Sorry Gil, but I think there's something you forget when accusing David Donohue and his brother of being selfish.
To my mind selfishness is something that cuts both ways. If someone is a parent then they may have to temper their own desires to fulfill their role as a parent. Surely, it can be considered selfish on their part to ignore those responsibilities?
The children of those who lose their lives pursuing what is a selfish sport have every right to feel at least some bitterness.
I guess the hard part in life is where do you draw the line between your responsibility to others and your responsibility to yourself, and your dreams and aspirations.
Do I think Donohue, Earnhardt and the rest shouldn't have taken part in the sport after becoming fathers? Nope, but I do feel that it's something that you have to look at from both sides.
Sorry Gil, but I think there's something you forget when accusing David Donohue and his brother of being selfish.
To my mind selfishness is something that cuts both ways. If someone is a parent then they may have to temper their own desires to fulfill their role as a parent. Surely, it can be considered selfish on their part to ignore those responsibilities?
The children of those who lose their lives pursuing what is a selfish sport have every right to feel at least some bitterness.
I guess the hard part in life is where do you draw the line between your responsibility to others and your responsibility to yourself, and your dreams and aspirations.
Do I think Donohue, Earnhardt and the rest shouldn't have taken part in the sport after becoming fathers? Nope, but I do feel that it's something that you have to look at from both sides.
Recently, David Donohue gave a bunch of audio tapes to Mike Argetsinger...
Mike is writing the Donohue biography, a follow up to his Walt Hansgen effort. Obviously he is talking to the Donohues quite a bit and David decided he could use these tapes.
They're the interviews that the writer of the famous Unfair Advantage book did with his father. A great deal of it is technical stuff, as is that book, but Mike is able to sift through that to find more information about the man and his racing.
He found it absolutely surreal, he told me, that as he drove back to Chicago playing the tapes in his car, he was hearing the voice of a man who died over thirty years ago. And that the voice was virtually identical to the one of the man who'd handed him the tapes!
Where is Gil these days, by the way?
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