Is Renault going to have a good KERS system next year or not? Anyone have any info or insight? We already know that the Mercedes will have 1st rate KERS that will be very compact, light, good dynamic performance etc. We know that Ferrari's system in 09 was not nearly as refined as the Mercedes and there are stories of its use being downright hairy. But nonetheless they have had years now to develop it and a full race season of experience both with using the systems themselves and, probably even more importantly, incorporating into the car while trying to minimize negative effects on handling etc.
So to me it seems like a question of central importance to the 2011 season. Will Renault and Cossie have comparable systems or will we see Ferrari and McL having even bigger advantage over other teams than they do now?
F1 is order of magnitude more interesting when more than just a couple cars on the grid have real chance of winning. It has been wonderful surprise to get to see things like Kubica in Renault doing as well as he has despite all the uncertainty of existence and financial woe that team's been through over last year. It goes without saying that if it wasn't for the performance of Red Bulls then this season wouldn't be remotely as interesting as it has been.
So I worry now that these teams coming into competitiveness might be screwed up and we might be back to just Ferrari and McL again right when things were getting good. All for stupid little political marketing gimmick, basically, this KERS thing.
Is there realistic chance that KERS won't basically be a handicap for anyone who isn't Ferrari or Mercedes power?
Full Version: Renault and Cossie KERS
Sorry for asking, but is KERS confirmedto be back for 2011?
Renault had Magnetti Marelli KERS, one similar to Ferraris, or am I wrong?
QUOTE (wingwalker @ Sep 1 2010, 11:19) 
Sorry for asking, but is KERS confirmedto be back for 2011?
Well I dunno about Mercedes/McLaren. Ferrari have said they're using it next season and Renault want it back. And if they are then expect Mercedes, McLaren and and Red Bull to aswell.
QUOTE (wiki)
Technical changes
* The maximum height of the diffuser will be cut from 175 millimetres (6.9 in) to 125 millimetres (4.9 in), reducing aerodynamic downforce. Furthermore, measures were agreed to exclude double diffuser designs.[44]
* In week leading up to the 2010 Spanish Grand Prix, a formal proposal was submitted to FOTA by British engineering firm Flybrid to supply the entire grid with a mandatory, standardized KERS unit, following campaigns led by Ferrari and Renault to see the technology re-introduced for the 2011 season.[45] In the aftermath of the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix, Ferrari confirmed they would be running the KERS device on their 2011 car,[46] but the system will not be mandatory.
* In order to compensate for the increase in weight brought about by KERS, the minimum weight of the car will increase from 620 kilograms (1,367 lb) to 640 kilograms (1,411 lb).[46]
* FOTA have agreed to ban the controversial "F-duct" system developed by McLaren for the MP4-25 and later deployed by other teams through the 2010 season.[47]
* At the meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Geneva in June 2010, an adjustable rear wing system was confirmed as an addition to the 2011 rules.[41] It will be introduced to aid overtaking, serving as a substitute for the F-duct system. In a similar system to the KERS regulator used in 2009, the adjustable rear wing would only be available under certain conditions; namely, drivers will only be able to use it when they are within one second of the car in front, but it would not be usable within the first two laps of a race except in the case of an early safety car. The system is expected to offer drivers an additional 15 km/h (9.3 mph) when passing,[48] and will deactivate when the driver first touches the brakes after using the rear wing. The concept, which has been negatively received by drivers and fans alike,[49] could be dropped if it proves impractical or unmanageable.[50]
* 2011 will see the return of the 107% rule in qualifying.[41][51] Under this arrangement, any driver who fails to set a time within 107% of the pole sitter's time in qualifying will not be permitted to take part in the race; for instance, if the pole time is 1 minute 40 seconds, a driver must set a time faster than 1 minute 47 seconds in order to make it to the grid.
* For the first time, cars will have a mandatory weight distribution, reported to be 46:54 per cent.[52] This is intended to prevent teams from having to make expensive changes to the internal configuration of their cars in the event of changes to tyre compounds introduced by new tyre supplier Pirelli.
* The number of wheel tethers - the load-bearing cables connecting tyres to the bodywork - will be doubled for 2011, in response to an increasing number of accidents where wheels have been torn free of their mountings, including the death of Henry Surtees in a Formula Two race at Brands Hatch in 2009.[53]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2011#Changes
* The maximum height of the diffuser will be cut from 175 millimetres (6.9 in) to 125 millimetres (4.9 in), reducing aerodynamic downforce. Furthermore, measures were agreed to exclude double diffuser designs.[44]
* In week leading up to the 2010 Spanish Grand Prix, a formal proposal was submitted to FOTA by British engineering firm Flybrid to supply the entire grid with a mandatory, standardized KERS unit, following campaigns led by Ferrari and Renault to see the technology re-introduced for the 2011 season.[45] In the aftermath of the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix, Ferrari confirmed they would be running the KERS device on their 2011 car,[46] but the system will not be mandatory.
* In order to compensate for the increase in weight brought about by KERS, the minimum weight of the car will increase from 620 kilograms (1,367 lb) to 640 kilograms (1,411 lb).[46]
* FOTA have agreed to ban the controversial "F-duct" system developed by McLaren for the MP4-25 and later deployed by other teams through the 2010 season.[47]
* At the meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Geneva in June 2010, an adjustable rear wing system was confirmed as an addition to the 2011 rules.[41] It will be introduced to aid overtaking, serving as a substitute for the F-duct system. In a similar system to the KERS regulator used in 2009, the adjustable rear wing would only be available under certain conditions; namely, drivers will only be able to use it when they are within one second of the car in front, but it would not be usable within the first two laps of a race except in the case of an early safety car. The system is expected to offer drivers an additional 15 km/h (9.3 mph) when passing,[48] and will deactivate when the driver first touches the brakes after using the rear wing. The concept, which has been negatively received by drivers and fans alike,[49] could be dropped if it proves impractical or unmanageable.[50]
* 2011 will see the return of the 107% rule in qualifying.[41][51] Under this arrangement, any driver who fails to set a time within 107% of the pole sitter's time in qualifying will not be permitted to take part in the race; for instance, if the pole time is 1 minute 40 seconds, a driver must set a time faster than 1 minute 47 seconds in order to make it to the grid.
* For the first time, cars will have a mandatory weight distribution, reported to be 46:54 per cent.[52] This is intended to prevent teams from having to make expensive changes to the internal configuration of their cars in the event of changes to tyre compounds introduced by new tyre supplier Pirelli.
* The number of wheel tethers - the load-bearing cables connecting tyres to the bodywork - will be doubled for 2011, in response to an increasing number of accidents where wheels have been torn free of their mountings, including the death of Henry Surtees in a Formula Two race at Brands Hatch in 2009.[53]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2011#Changes
QUOTE (2ms @ Sep 1 2010, 11:15)
We know that Ferrari's system in 09 was not nearly as refined as the Mercedes and there are stories of its use being downright hairy.
Whilst true for the majority of the season, Ferrari made very large gains later on and there were various reports on the internet (take from that what you want) that they had matched if not exceeded Merc by the end of 09.
QUOTE (wingwalker @ Sep 1 2010, 12:19)
Sorry for asking, but is KERS confirmedto be back for 2011?
yep
KERS will be back and it will be with more energy storage allowed. In other words, whereas KERS was determined to be a disadvantage overall by every team except two who had designed their car too much around it to not use it, in 2011 the KERS will almost certainly be an advantage because it will be able to be used for much larger amount of time per lap in race.
I believe we have to assume that in order to be competitive for championship, it will be necessary to have KERS. Would be a shame if someone like Red Bull has car that could otherwise win championship but they don't have access to as good one piece of car (KERS) and so they can't compete.
I believe we have to assume that in order to be competitive for championship, it will be necessary to have KERS. Would be a shame if someone like Red Bull has car that could otherwise win championship but they don't have access to as good one piece of car (KERS) and so they can't compete.
QUOTE (2ms @ Sep 1 2010, 14:26)
KERS will be back and it will be with more energy storage allowed. In other words, whereas KERS was determined to be a disadvantage overall by every team except two who had designed their car too much around it to not use it, in 2011 the KERS will almost certainly be an advantage because it will be able to be used for much larger amount of time per lap in race.
I believe we have to assume that in order to be competitive for championship, it will be necessary to have KERS. Would be a shame if someone like Red Bull has car that could otherwise win championship but they don't have access to as good one piece of car (KERS) and so they can't compete.
I believe we have to assume that in order to be competitive for championship, it will be necessary to have KERS. Would be a shame if someone like Red Bull has car that could otherwise win championship but they don't have access to as good one piece of car (KERS) and so they can't compete.
Well last season in BMW KERS was the curse if I remember correctly
, and Renault version of the device wasn't also as effective as McLaren's. I mean if they (Renault) are keen on using KERS in R31 it better be good straightaway and without compromising car's balance..
EH?? I thought that the KERS regs 2011 were the same as those in 2009? in terms of time and energy available.
QUOTE (dav115 @ Sep 1 2010, 11:48)
Whilst true for the majority of the season, Ferrari made very large gains later on and there were various reports on the internet (take from that what you want) that they had matched if not exceeded Merc by the end of 09.
I don't recall any reports of that nature. I thought it pretty much accepted that Mac had by far the best system and as Ferrari stopped development of their car early I wouldn't have thought there would have been huge gains in their KERS system either.
QUOTE (Andy865 @ Sep 1 2010, 16:18)
EH?? I thought that the KERS regs 2011 were the same as those in 2009? in terms of time and energy available.
They are (unless something has changed recently).
exactly, I was sure too. Renault and SF wanted to make it more powerful, but the rest didn't agree AFAIR.
QUOTE (2ms @ Sep 1 2010, 11:15)
We already know that the Mercedes will have 1st rate KERS that will be very compact, light, good dynamic performance etc. We know that Ferrari's system in 09 was not nearly as refined as the Mercedes and there are stories of its use being downright hairy.
Things change. Mercedes had a reliable KERS system and apparently a very good system but that doesn't mean they will have the same next year. Btw given that it was a Mercedes system does that mean McLaren, Mercedes and FI will all use the same system?
If anyone is going to lose out it will be Red Bull. The other 3 big teams, McLaren/Ferrari/Renault, have all ran KERS and have probably learnt a lot from the experience. I don't think the unit itself will be hugely important but the way it's integrated into the car probably will be.
QUOTE (MadYarpen @ Sep 1 2010, 12:22)
exactly, I was sure too. Renault and SF wanted to make it more powerful, but the rest didn't agree AFAIR.
It was that, Mercedes didn't agree to improve KERS' power as their solution was not so scalable.
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Sep 1 2010, 16:58)
It was that, Mercedes didn't agree to improve KERS' power as their solution was not so scalable.
Is there a link to that. Not saying it's wrong, but it sounds unlikely.
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Sep 1 2010, 17:58)
It was that, Mercedes didn't agree to improve KERS' power as their solution was not so scalable.
According to AMuS (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...11-1920788.html) Mercedes wanted to increase KERS power output to 600 Kilojoule - while McLaren wanted to keep at 2009 levels (400 Kilojoule).
Slightly ironic, given that both would use the same system in 2011...
QUOTE (Spa95 @ Sep 1 2010, 17:16)
According to AMuS (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...11-1920788.html) Mercedes wanted to increase KERS power output to 600 Kilojoule - while McLaren wanted to keep at 2009 levels (400 Kilojoule).
Slightly ironic, given that both would use the same system in 2011...
Slightly ironic, given that both would use the same system in 2011...
This is reasonable - McLaren has already experience with KERS (unlike Mercedes), so leaving rules as they are is an advantage.
Edited:
According to this article Renault's KERS is too heavy.
QUOTE (wingwalker @ Sep 1 2010, 12:19)
Sorry for asking, but is KERS confirmedto be back for 2011?
http://www.autosport.com/directory/appointments.html
Renault is recruiting for KERS integration engineers
Do Mercedes have to supply a KERS system to McLaren? I know engines need to be supplied but would KERS of been stipulated?
QUOTE (Clatter @ Sep 1 2010, 12:59)
Is there a link to that. Not saying it's wrong, but it sounds unlikely.
That would be a hell of a search, but I'll look for it...
QUOTE (F1Champion @ Sep 1 2010, 17:36)
Do Mercedes have to supply a KERS system to McLaren? I know engines need to be supplied but would KERS of been stipulated?
Yes, Haug said that every Mercedes customer will get KERS system with the engines.
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Sep 1 2010, 13:38)
That would be a hell of a search, but I'll look for it...
Edit: Here we go...
Subscriber's only: www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84543
Another "way" to it: [ link ]
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Sep 1 2010, 19:29)
Edit: Here we go...
Subscriber's only: www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84543
Another "way" to it: [ link ]
Subscriber's only: www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84543
Another "way" to it: [ link ]
Cheers. I'd like to know a bit more around their reasoning.
Has there been any annoucnements from Ferrari on whether Sauber and Toro Rosso will get the Ferrari KERS?
QUOTE (Clatter @ Sep 2 2010, 10:08)
Cheers. I'd like to know a bit more around their reasoning.
Has there been any annoucnements from Ferrari on whether Sauber and Toro Rosso will get the Ferrari KERS?
Has there been any annoucnements from Ferrari on whether Sauber and Toro Rosso will get the Ferrari KERS?
All that I'm sure about is that Sauber won't use BMW's KERS [ link ].
Toro Rosso has confirmed that they'll have to used it [ link ] .
QUOTE (Clatter @ Sep 2 2010, 12:19)
Taking the TR comments then Sauber would also have to use the Ferrari unit as well.
I'm almost sure that both will use it.
QUOTE (Gemini @ Sep 1 2010, 17:25)
http://www.autosport.com/directory/appointments.html
Renault is recruiting for KERS integration engineers
Renault is recruiting for KERS integration engineers
Heh, I just get scared looking at those vacancies. Experience is the key thing (even moreso than qualifications), but sometimes you think where are you going to get that in the first place. You can always start somewhere, anywhere, tiny and just keep working up I guess.
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