Massa...managed by Todt.

There was quite a bit of speculation Saturday night on both sides of the paddock that Ferrari would try something come raceday, as the only team who openly have a driver who is his team-mate's donkey. This would fit the bill, but perhaps CW is smarter than we give him credit for.

No. Not at all. He just screwed up.
After Charlie's Monaco, yellow/green flags, I'm convinced he's lost it.

Out of curiosity, what would Ferrari gain if Charlie had spotted that Massa missed his grid spot? If there was anything to gain, would they risk another team order penalty AND a race fixing investigation just before the WMSC? Sounds very far fetched to me.

LOL, not much.
As conspiracy theories go, this one has pretty much no credence.

He made a mistake and IMHO got away with it.

What I *think* happened is they saw it and just told ferrari to better make sure Massa finishes the first lap in 6th or lower (ie no overtakes) ... I m pretty sure Massa let 1 or 2 cars through on the opening lap. Saved themselves a stop engines/5 minutes board/restart race.

2nd time Massa was lucky this year. Looks like he got problems with white lines ;) first Monaco when he left the pits not the starting grid

there are other drivers BEHIND massa that would like to have a chance to overtake him.

Well, considering Massa was completely anonymous tootling around for an easy 4th for pretty much the whole race, I don't blame anyone for not noticing.

My guess: There was an oil spill over there and Ferrari asked RC to do it.

I'm sure Alonso would have pointed it out through the radio if Hamilton's car was over the line!

True. That's why he let Webber through somewhere in S2 for 6th. Felipe was 5th and Webber 6th after La Source. Most likely Rob received that ultimatum from race control and forwarded it to Felipe. Too bad we don't hear all the team radio conversations.

What would have happened without that "under the table" agreement (if there was one)? New formation lap, yes, but would Massa get another chance of positioning the car more precise, or would he have started last? If he would have kept his position, why agree to not gain anything? If he would have started last, why would FiA offer such a thing?

An interesting suggestion but it would make F1 a mockery if F1 were to do secret deal with Ferrari in the way you suggest. Oh wait.......

I can't believe that there is n't the standard penalty for this indiscretion rather than allowing deals to be struck with RC.

I honestly don't know. I just think Engel's opinion is the right one and I share it because of Webber suddenly being ahead of Felipe in the middle of the first lap. Neither Webber or Felipe said anything about it post race.

Besides both Webber and Kimi have overshot the starting bay in the past without a penalty. You also have to be aware that it was Rubens in 7th at the start and he would be the last one on the grid to complain about something Felipe was involved in. I guess that's how F1 works.

I think there is a standard penalty for it, but I am too lazy to search for it. It should be seen as a jump start.

I do not remember any such occasions, but I trust your word.

It was mentioned on the spanish broadcast too, they were astonished, Marc Gené was even ashamed, couldn´t believe Massa´s mistake.

This is not like Valencia, when they needed more than 25 minutes to find out what happened behind the SC, i couldn´t understand that, this time there was not even an investigation, this time i just can´t find the words, i just can´t buy "let a couple of cars overtake u and we´ll forget about it", because that would be even worst.

Don´t really know, but it could be, the fact is that, in this particular case, when the green light were on Massa´s car was 2-2.5 meters ahead of its position, so it could be very well considered as a jump start (Drive Through penalty).

It has happened many timea in the past, but not by such a large distance. I've wondered everytime why nothing is said or done.

Another formation lap might have been a problem in Spa, right? The track is very long and the cars don’t have the extra lap fuel because in Spa they go directly back to the pits after crossing the finish line.

Could you imagine the scandal that we could have right now if another car (let’s say Hamilton or Webber) had not finished the race because Massa had not find the right position on the grid the first time and all the cars had to do another formation lap?

The TV senders would also had not been too happy because of the delay in the start.

I don’t know if Whiting noticed Massa was out of the spot or not, but in case he knew I think I understand why he would not want to have another formation lap if not strictly necessary.

fuel is a non issue, if for whatever reason the start is aborted and they redo the formation lap the race distance is reduced by a lap.

But yeah, dead tv time might have been an issue, don't know if Whiting would care about it

If they do an extra formation lap then the race is shortened by a lap. Fuel would not be an issue.

Thanks! didn't know the second part of the rule , but it makes sense

Very good post. That would explain why there was no restart. But obviously Felipe could have been handed a drive through. But I guess the affected teams (Ferrari, Red Bull and Williams) handled it outside so to speak. Rubens sure didn't complain and Webber got his 5th back on the first lap. Sometimes stuff falls through the cracks in F1. That's how it works. Probably the same with the lack of blue flags from the track marshals during the restart in the end when Yamamoto and Hülkenberg (who blocked Felipe) were infront of Felipe. Like it or loath it, that's how it is.

As a Mclaren fan I too was delighted. Massa too much need points off Alonso :-)

not sure about that
start procedure is on after all cars are on the grid in the right position
this was not the case

Overshoot your grid is a jumped start. You are out of your grid box. If you did it on the formation lap it would be ok but not on the warmup lap. He should have been penalised.
And if the FIA think Ferrari/ Massa did it deliberatly further penalise them this week.
Personally I think it was a simple stuff up by Felipe, no conspiracy. But being at least a metre forward is not 100mm which they may turn a blind eye too in lets get this show on the road.

Normally I would be the first to jump all over anything wrong a Ferrari had done. However, I think they should discuss this in the next drivers meeting, Massa should say "my bad, I won't do it again" and clarify that the drivers must stop in their box. Then be done with it.

does anybody know the part of the rules that describes this?
it cannot surely be seen as a jump start since the starting procedure should not be initiated
maybe another formation and sent to the back of the grid?

It's not a false start, false start is if you move after the starting procedure has begun (green flag -> 5 second lights)

AFAIK there is no specific rule dealing with overshooting your grid slot, it falls under the catch all 38.11b

"b) If any other problem arises, and if the race director decides the start should be delayed, the following procedures shall apply :
1) If the race has not been started, the abort lights will be switched on, a board saying “DELAYED START” will be displayed, all engines will be stopped and the new formation lap will start five minutes later with the race distance reduced by one lap. The next signal will be the three minute signal.
Tyre changing on the grid is not permitted during such a delay.
Every time this happens the race will be shortened by one lap.
.... "

So it was a trick to get the race started quite a few minutes later with slick tyres on a possibly quite damp track?

nah if there's rain Race Control can declare it a wet start and permit a change to inters/wets

38.14 Only in the following cases will any variation in the start procedure be allowed :
a) If it starts to rain after the five minute signal but before the race is started and, in the opinion of the race director teams should be given the opportunity to change tyres, the abort lights will be shown on the Line and the starting procedure will begin again at the ten minute point.
b) If the start of the race is imminent and, in the opinion of the race director, the volume of water on the track is such that it cannot be negotiated safely even on wet-weather tyres, the abort lights will be shown on the Line and information concerning the likely delay will be displayed on the timing monitors. Once the start time is known at least ten minutes warning will be given.
c) If the race is started behind the safety car, Article 40.14 will apply.

Thanks!

Still it would have been pretty confusing.
As we saw, it rained only for 1 or 2 minutes after the start.

Imagine the chaos when it started to rain after the 5 minute signal ("OK, you're allowed to change tyres") but stopped before the warm up lap ("hey, shouldn't we after all....") - which quite likely could have been the case last Sunday.

Hello Forum,
I was wandering if anybody can clarify what happened with Massa's start in spa, on the back of;
2 serious claims made by credible people to millions of people:
- The commentators suggested Massa comfortably overshot his grid box.
- The commentators indicated it may have been a team order (how bizzare!)- to avoid bunching the pack up and creating a field spread between the leaders and alonso, and eliminating one more car for Ferrari's number one driver to overtake.

However, there was no further mention of this "incident" and the stewards certainly did not get involved. Now are the commentators eyes playing up? And why did the TV camera man not flick to a relevant replay to convince the world.

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I couldnt find it anywhere.

Cheers.

Cock-up before conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor


Really what surprised me was that fail safes in the automated staring procedure did not detect anything though Massa's Ferrari was almost full meter out of its box, hence the jump start detection transponder was nowhere near the sensor embedded in the track. Thats at least how I think it works, once the cars have returned into their grid slots the system is armed, which should detect failure if the car is not properly positioned. If the uncertainty in the positioning is something like a meter how can they time accurately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kChqJVjp9U...player_embedded

Just how stupid are the stewards?
What is the difference between a jump-start and overshooting your starting box? Both are CHEATING. Afterall, Fernando got penalty for his jump start this year.

it's not cheating since the race has not been started
don't start the bloody race if the cars are not positioned right. send the driver to the back of the grid whatever, but do another formation lap and get the damn cars in the right position BEFORE you start the race.

what happens if one driver goes to another slot?surely they do another formation lap, right? the same should apply here

The system obviously does not register position only movement once armed.

Hey mate, come on... its cheating - as it gains an unfair advantage. I cannot be bothered to read the FIA F1 race start procedure regulations now, but im sure lawyers would quote a rule which states "cars must line up according in their grid slot position for the race to safely start the race." (If no such rule exists then FIA are mindless).
Anyhow, Mclaren copied Ferrari ('spy-gate/stephney-gate'), "before" a race was started - but they were done for Cheating.

It can be construed as cheating as they are trying to gain an advantage, and as we saw Massa was allowed to get away with it. It's not the first time it's happened so one can only assume that the FIA don't care. Makes you wonder why it doesn't happen more often.

are f1 cars inspected before qualy/race?
if you fail a technical inspection then are you suspended for cheating or are you allowed to alter the car and make it legal?

that is the whole point, I am not discussing whether massa was wrong or not, clearly wrong, but you can't view as a jump start or something similar

I've asked a question earlier...if you pleace you car on the wrong spot on the grid....is it cheating?

He was a metre+ closer to the cars in front, and the same extra ahead of the guys behind than he should of been. IMHO he gained an unfair advantage and yes, that is cheating. I can't see that as being vastly different to a jump start.

most probably he has given back position to webber very shortly, and this is why this incident went unpunished. But even if so, there should have been some reaction, cause not only guys in front were disadvantaged.

I think cheating is a pretty loaded term. I'd say it's against the rules (or should be against the rules) and was deserving of punishment but I think there's got to be some deliberate desire to break the rules, gain an advantage and get away with it to start calling someone a cheat.

No Fernando Alonso needs to do it, then it's called cheating.

If there was a master plan behind it (which I do not believe, but the idea was brought up in this thread), then it is cheating. Otherwise it is a mistake. Regardless of which, it was definitely something that the stewards should have spotted and acted upon.

Fair comments.