Well, on another forum, someone posted this link, and I found it very interesting, go to about 52 seconds, and focus purely on Vettel's front wing, you see what I see?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp8tTb-_Y-E

it flexes in dirty air and it also flexes when it is loaded on one side (with the other side in the slipstream)
that is quite normal

TBH, I've never seen that much flex from one side to the other.

Slightly higher res at 0:23 here

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem3t3_f1...on-vettel_sport

...see also the Flexi Wing thread

A video of that was posted on Twitter as well by Adam Cooper. To me it shows just how much of a wake comes off the cars. Add that to the quick lateral transition the wing made across that wake and you get the floppy wing. I don't think it was broken, it was just one half suddenly lost it's load and all the flex transitioned to the opposite side. No big deal at all.....

I hope FOM take it off Youtube. Don't want to annoy Bernie, now.

Don't confuse torsional stiffness with other forms.

Footage from MW's crash, you can see the wing shaking but it does not dip like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bpZkBWqf94...layer_embedded#!

EDIT: For those who don't remember, failing wings and crashes are the reasons why flexing aero was banned in the first place.

He lost the rear not the front. If the front wing broke he would of lost DF and would of locked his fronts- this didn't happen until he was going sideways.

It makes huge sense. Newey's race car is dangerous in high speed over taking or in a wake of a car.
In both films the frond wings shakes like vibrator.

It is the car that we should be blaming.

Interesting if steering input somehow affects the "stability" of the wing mounts, allowing it to come closer to the track in corners, but remain rigid during the flex tests.

That had no bearing on the accident of course, but do go on by all means.

I assume that the effects are quite complex. Indeed detailed analysis can be carried out by the hands of FIA after the RBR car performing two spectacular and dangerouns crash, by two different drivers. HD video evidence, Steering inputs and all other info.

it's clearly the steering and the timing of it that caused the accident. the wing movement is just showing what happens in the wake of a car, imo it didn't start what happened, maybe it made it worse, who knows. it's Vettels own input that caused the accident though for sure

It looks like Webber's RBR being sudderinly 'pulled' toward Lotus.
1) Kova braked
2) indeed RBR lost aero drag suddernly.

Not exactly "pulled", the Lotus sucks.

Just a second or so before the accidents, the distances between Webber/Kova reduces in higher acceleration.

Perfectly normal flow of events when the car ahead is braking and the other one doesn't. Difference is speed is increasing exponentially and so does the risk of an accident.

Its interesting, but perhaps just caused by one half still being in the slipstream while the other is suddenly pulled out?

Still appears to be Vettel's input which triggers the accident though.

And I really doubt the wing had anything to do with Webber's Valencia crash.

vettels wing really does wobble/move alot
never noticed that before

Bah that's just it protesting that a git is in the cockpit behind it...

that is effect of the mysterious pedal called "brake" on the lotus

thats funny... the wing has looked stiff on all onboard camera shots.

It may be because the wings might pivot if loaded only on one side. It doesn't look like as if the wing is flexing itself... anyway that would probably have upset the balance slightly.

Another red bull driver a victim of an early braker imo.

More another victim of the inept RB drivers. The continued attempts to try and past the buck for any RB incidents is laughable.

Ridiculous. Sour grapes again.

Yup, but the effect of is in terms aero, produces wake just behind, upon which RBR front wing bends that reduces its drag hence accelerating in split seconds beyond driver's control... and so on.

??

You think it was an example of great driving then?

Whereas it's obvious the wing moves alot in the turbulence it doesn't seem obvious to me the wing caused the incident, more like the over exuberance of Vettel's steering inputs on a less than bone dry track caused a tank slapper he couldn't catch.

If Red Bull want to win some titles they need to get more consistent drivers. As Webber improves this season (it was Webber making the gaffes on track at the start e.g Melbourne) Vettel seems to be getting worse. This and Turkey are two of the worst overtaking attempts I've seen by a driver in a top team.

I apologise, you are right.

There are suggestions that the wing failed just before the wobble and the subsequent losing the rear.

Still Vettel had jinked it left and then right after misjudging which line Button is going to take.
Further more - it was just so stupid to even try an overtake on Button because he had a damaged wing and would take much longer in pits than Vettel anyway.

Plus its beating Mark which should have occupied Vettel and not Hamilton (who will eventually fall back after Monza IMO).

I guess Vettel was going for the win because deep down , he believes he could have done that ... Kudos to that but he is spoiling it for himself and his fans atm.

That flexi/twisting wing/floor combo does seem to give the RB6 some weird characteristics that the drivers don't seem comfortable with. First it was Webber smashing into the back of Hamilton in Australia, then the infamous Turkey incident with both Red Bulls (although that's maybe a bit different), then Webber smashing into the back of Kovalainen in Valencia, and now Vettel smashing into the side of Button. Probably been more incidents that haven't been as major as those, too...

Safety is what the flexi rules have been about, so maybe the other drivers ought to be voicing their concerns as well as the team principals.

Excellent post.

I suspect that the downforce going from side to side from wing flexing is contributing to making the Red Bull such a handful in the wake of cars it follows.

Vettell just couldnt control the car in this situation.

I am pretty sure that this will make the FIA increase their testing procedures to stop this from happening again.

No comment...

It just shows how much redbulls wing flexes, and why they are soo bad when behind another car.

Are we not complicating this too much?

a. The Red Bull cars have the best front downforce
b. Hence, they lose a lot more downforce following another car
c. There are a handfull following other cars.

That's interesting. The right side of the wing took all the load as he pulled slightly out of Buttons wake, while the left remained in position. Surely that can't have helped the balance of the car.

As Vettel turns left to pull out from behind Button the rear gets loose. There is a chance this was caused by the front regaining all that extra downforce relative to the rear as the car hits clean air. I imagine this phenomenon is possible with a stiff or flexing wing. But even before this Vettel is hacking and weaving at the wheel as he tries to decide which way Jenson is going to go. As he corrects the rear is still loose and the front bites again. Combined with the braking and wet track he couldn't catch it. IMO it's his lack of judgement and calmness that caused this accident. He should have picked his line earlier instead but like Webber at Valencia he tried to stay in the slipstream right up to the braking zone which is just asking for trouble in modern F1 where the cars are so aero affected. The wing may be a contributing factor but this accident was easily avoidable by Sebastian only.

I think all their incidents were driver errors, in none of them do I see the car suddenly losing grip or balance under constant movement from the driver....it's either the driver gets way too close (webber vs kova), unbalances the car with a huge steering movement just prior to hitting the brakes AND going over a bump (vet vs but)

in no accident do I see the car simply snapping into oversteer or having an unexpected behaviour. these only happen due to poor driver car control imho

No doubt that the Vettel video is being scrutinized by all teams. Do the teams get to keep the footage from their own car? If Jenson has a rear cam I guess Woking is wallpapered with frames showing exactly how that front wing flex

Was at Spa and stood at the 100m braking board just before Les Combes on the Friday during second practice. The Lotus was braking slightly earlier than the other cars, but there wasn't much in it. Certainly not the 80m earlier (according to RBR telemetry) that Gascoyne tried to sell as being the car's fault when Webber ran into the back of Kova. I still think that crash was down to Kova realising it was pointless trying to defend against Mark and lifting off the power early to let him go but not realising Mark had followed him left.

I imagine that they are consulting with the FIA .... they now have a pretty clear argument based on safety againt the RBR front wings. From what I have seen of him, Whitmarsh will not hesitate to twist the knife.

I believe that also. Mark cut it too thin, just like Seb. On the other hand, seems like this is maybe the biggest difference between F1 2010 and F1 1980 - the margins are much smaller and the drivers have to take more risks. Not in the Webber case, that was not necessary, but I think many of the other accidents is a result of that. More aggressive blocking and the resulting more aggressive overtake strategy.

Safety? Come on, the accident was NOT a result of the wings flexing, just forget that. But. Many theories is that RBR's speed comes from clever flexing and the footage might give both FiA and the other teams of exactly how clever it is.

Suggestions by who?

James Allen has picked up on this, the previous incidents and the possible safety implications (probably not because he an avid reader here but because it's just so blindingly obvious):

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/anal...tel-hit-button/

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1728/29611120.gif

By another forummer on another forum - who posted a vid showing debris flying off the wing just before the wobble started.

This I'd like to see

They'll definitely be showing that to Charlie - it's moving an unbelievable amount, I've not seen anything like that on another car and now it's been picked up by the mainstream media the FIA won't be able to ignore it.

Turkey

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7294/vct.gif

Not like a wing see sawing will create any advantage as you unbalance the car severely...

I think its more of an oversight when they stiffened the wing.