I have seen this stated a few times but the fact of the matter is that Vettel drove on to the grass of his own volition. At no point was Kubica anywhere near him.



I know still shots can be deceiving sometimes but if you don't believe me rewatch the video from this angle. It is around 6.50 here if you are in the UK. The car in the 'middle' in that photo is Button, Kubica is well over a cars width to the right of Vettel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tm...rix_Highlights/

Haha.

id class "world class" as someone who could change to a different top level series and still do a respectable job

you cant limit it to the top 5 in f1, as someone like jimmie johnson, seb loeb, robby gordon, mcnish, david brabham etc are excluded

I disagree. NO driver can be quick in a slow car. I believe Kubica is getting the most out of the Renault at the moment, but I also think he is being flaterred to an extent by Petrov's performance. If you remember, he was not beating Nick consistently enough when they were together at BMW.

actually, i think if the cars bad, he seems to not bother and drive around. To me it seemed like if the car was bad, nick was ahead, car was good, rob ahead....

I'm starting to become a RK fan as the season progresses.
He is always there in Q3, rarely makes mistakes and has been very consistent this year (reminiscent of 08)

Edit: So to answer the question, yes.

He's a great driver, top five, but I have to say it's a bit ironic that such a thread pops up right after a race in which he made an uncharacteristic mistake, and a costly one too.

Same.

I do feel sorry for Heidfeld though, always seems to be used as a yardstick for people like Kubica, if he did really well it was BMW if he did something non-eventful it was Heidfeld. Kubica is Polish and perhaps that makes him more conspicous ?

well we havnt really seem him consitently at the front fighting for wins have we? skilled, top tier driver- YES, but to early to say how good he can be as he has not had a championship winning car (other then the BMW)

He had respect on the paddock and among F1 experts since he is on the grid, but I noticed that he never had too much respect among F1 fans (I mean F1 fans that are on this forum:)) and that changed this season a lot, I'm really glad

So the car changed from good to bad 10 times in a season?

Because F1 fans just look at the top car and he hasnt been in a really top car.

Is that strange? The cars develop one time in the right direction, another in the wrong, one track suits one car, another not, there are good weekend for the team in car setup and bad ones, and in case of BMW it happened exceptionally often.

And that is why nobody notice Sutil this season, IMHO he makes a great work in the FI this season
(sorry for OT)

Exactly.

He's my favourite driver in F1 at the moment and I think he's having an excellent season, but I'd like to see him against another tough established team-mate to get a better idea of what exactly is his talent level. And I'd like to see how he'd go in a top car, obviously. I do think very soon we'll see all of that happening, perhaps next year or in 2012.

My feeling is that he's very near to the superstar class of Hamilton and Alonso, but slightly slower. Perhaps rating him as the 3rd most complete driver in F1 right now is the most fair?

Yeah I thought that too. But all drivers make errors now and again and I don't think Kubica is any more prone to them than the others.

For my money, Kubica is a dead cert to be a WDC in the right car. If we are to believe the engineers and team bosses he works with, his work ethic is impressive and helps drive the team forwards. He was right up there in the title chase in 2008 and seemed to be pretty cool about it too.

Call it gut feeling if you like, because I can't really put my finger on any one incident or race which makes me think this way, but I think he's far closer to Hamilton in spirit than anyone else on the grid. Give him a McLaren, Red Bull or Ferrari and I genuinely believe he'll impress. I certainly enjoy watching him battle it out.

I agree. In fact, I think one of the more notable but overlooked stories of this season is the maturing of Kubica and Hamilton. Clearly, both drivers displayed some fairly rough edges during their initial seasons, but this year has witnessed both drivers demonstrating much more polish in their respective performances.

As for Kubica's status as a "world class driver," I think one only needs to consider where Red Bull would be right now if Kubica were driving Vettel's car. Yes, I agree that we don't know if Kubica would be any faster than Vettel, but I'm sure most reasonable F1 fans would agree that there would be fewer DNFs.

Hasn't Hamilton always marked Kubica as the driver he thought would be his toughest competitor?

The only question I have about Kubica is that he seems to get results through stealth, more than going out there and making them happen. It could be a very unfair perception of him but I can't think of many bold passes he has made, though equally I can't think of many that have gone stupidly wrong either.

Now? He's been a world class driver (I'm taking that to mean amongst the best) for several years. It's just that Nick Heidfeld has been so underrated, it's obscured how good Robert has been.

he is in top 3.

Unintentionally funny.

It's true but from where he usually starts (just behind best/better cars) it's difficult to prove overtaking abilities. It was pretty hard to overtake Ferraris and McLarens in BMW days although I remember some battles with Renault and Toyota drivers then. Similarly you can't expect him to overtake Red Bull or Ferrari now. When he was behind in a race (Bahrain) he pulled some nice overtakings - particularly the one on De La Rosa. And with his style (late breaking) I don't think it is a problem.
I agree that "he is unproven at the very top level" argument is partially justified. Not because of lack of speed (at worst small difference) or level of opposition in the team.
Being the favourite and fighting for a championship is simply very different from the mental aspect. It's much easier to be the underdog when every podium is a bonus and pressure is by far smaller. Just look at Alonso this year, Vettel (last 2 seasons) or even Hamilton (finish of 2007 and 2008 seasons).

Busted! And quick, too.

I was hoping I'd be able to get away with that groaner. I'll use the thesaurus next time.

Give the guys at Renault and Force India some credit regarding Kubica and Sutil driving 'slow' cars.

Renault have updated the life out of that R30 and it's become really competitive, it's remarkable really.

Force India have developed a good car for the 2010 season from the beginning, and considering where they were even last season (Spa and Monza withstanding) it's a big achievement.

However, Toyota leaving and BMW leaving also plays a role in the success of Renault and Force India this season. That's two teams less to get past in the core midfield with Sauber still sort of languishing there at the back of the midfield and not fully upto its potential yet

Absolutely top shelf

thought this for years

If BMW gave a toss he could have been WDC

Hmm, fair point, so unlike Hamilton, Alonso and virtually everyone else, he has invariably got as much out of the car on Saturday afternoon as could be expected. I can hardly hold that against him!

I think we just need to see how Kubica performs in the pressure of a title fight....or vs another top driver in same equipment e.g. Alonso at Ferrari, to see where he really stands. Matter of fact, if Kov goes to Renault and he puts down a similar level of beating that Ham did... that will go a long way to confirming his world class status.

I do think he is top class though, just how top class remains to be answered. Same goes for Rosberg.

Yes. He has the talent and the potential to become a WDC when he gets a better car.

Saward makes a lot of positive noises about Kubica too.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/...l-return-to-f1/

David Coulthard in the last "F1 Racing" magazine said about Kubica that he is a "world class driver", so that makes a pretty big bunch of people from the F1 world that are claimig his world class status as a fact. I don't want to argue with them

In my opinion he has been a world class driver for quite some time.

I've thought he's been world class (or at least had the potential to be) since I saw this performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1hEEXUmVyY (monaco 08)

Yeah, that was world class driving without a doubt. Monaco 2010 qualy was pretty good too, here one lap on training session:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49GFlHkMTg

Well... I'm pretty bored so I make some compilation

Massa vs Kubica Fuji onboard last lap (2007) (anybody didn't saw this?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qjQiOJpHBM

Start on Monza (IIRC 2009)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWm61DNozP8

Start on Monza (2006) (Kubica is in the BMW that is starting on the left side:))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2LaQgz5WA

Start on Valencia (2010) Kubica overtaking Button (watched it few times but still - where did he come from? It remainds me Mika Hakkinen-Schumacher move, only they didn't overtaken a lapped car but Mark Webber itself:))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSval75GTq4

Raikonnen vs Kubica Japan (2008) (Kubica had on this moment lots of graining, and was really, really slower than Kimi, yet - great defence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLtbHvmnK2U

Overtaking move (Turkey 2006 - rookie year) - maybe not so impressive, but exactly the same place where Vettel tried overtake Webber this year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYqjdYnoVH0

China 2006 - yep, Spa 2010 wasn't the first time he overshoot his pitstop ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrKXQRAiWw

China 2007 - that could be his first win, if not this mechanical failure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgKxDx5QGYU

Canada 2007 - everybody knows what happened...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTQBVDV1E7s

Ok, I have enough, there was some impressive starts more, but can't find them now (still hoping that above videos won't be taken out in the next hours )

But I must admit it's hard to find some impressive overtaking moves, IMHO defense, qualy pace and race craft are his strongest points, but overtaking is one of his weaknesses, I remember some races from 2007 and 2008 where he had much slower cars in front him (f.e. with much more fuel) and couldn't overtake them.

man, you ARE bored...

Yes, and why even ask it was blatantly obvious the day he stepped into the category.

So the McLaren insider Joe Saward is indicating a possible change of Robert Kubica to McLaren (?!) in 2013:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/...l-return-to-f1/


Driver dealings these days tend to be concluded some years ahead and with Robert Kubica signed for Renault until the end of 2012 the team has some stability, but Kubica’s form is such that it is very likely that he will be snapped up by another team for 2013. That may already have happened, although such long-term deals are generally denied as they tend to demotivate the current driving staff. The current situation is that McLaren is believed to have Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button under contract to the end of 2012;

Wow, no joke!

Even the commentators totally freaked out on that one, their voices becoming unnaturally high.

Also, this is how Felipe Massa lost the 2008 WDC....

How is this proof of his world class status?

That would be really interesting, although I don't think that's what Joe Saward was implying directly. The timing would be good for Kubica, but I think that Kubica is more a 'Ferrari' kind of driver. He has lived in Italy, speaks Italian, familiar with Italian culture. But again, I may be totally wrong, as I see Ferrari going for Hamilton for 2013 (especially more if he can manage to win 1 WDC or 2 WDC before then), when Alonso's contract will run out. Hamilton would hardly be a match with everything that Ferrari stands for (language, culture, etc.) but so was Schumacher (I believe, but may totally be wrong) in early-mid 90s.

And if Hamilton stays at McLaren, I am not so sure Kubica would want to be his teammate.

Anyway, interesting stuff ahead for sure in 2012-2013. The 2012-2013 Silly Season(s) will be very interesting, but it obviously mean that the 2011 Silly Season will be terrible.

It's weakness of current F1 regulations, IMO.

Still I have the impression that f.e. Lewis is overtaking easier, can be a thing of cirumstainces/car/etc. but c'mon, 3 years in F1 and not a single one impressive overtaking move?

bahrain this year was imo quite impressive, moves on de la rosa and buemi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nMhiirF0c

It tends to help if you sometimes start from the wrong side of the grid and have the strongest engine in the field.

Had McLaren wanted Kubica they would have signed him before Jenson decided to say goodbye to Brawn. BMW announced his withdrawal in may, right?

Beginning of august (or late july).

I think it would be good to merge this thread with original Kubica thread...

Is Robert Kubica now a world class driver

should be :

Is Renault F1 now a world class car

Because supposed superstars like Vettel have screwed up in fights like this in much better conditions. That video is a testament to the skill and ability of both Kubica and Massa.

A poll for the Pole might help as well.