Valencia is a semi-permanent "street" circuit. Singapore is street. As is Korea. As is Abu Dhabi (both have street sections). Can anyone see the trend here? What killed Abu Dhabi is the stupid chicanes and atypical modern street section. Korea doesn't seem that bad, the "street" section is mainly just straights whereas the circuit section is more like a circuit with some decent flowing corners.

The new Indian track seems decent, but nothing that stands out really. But at least it's wholly a race track (good luck using Indian roads as part of a race track though, haha). None of that half roads nonsense. If it has any chicanes though it can be deemed as a failure (I think the final design isn't even finalised yet). You don't put chicanes into a blueprint....at least, you shouldn't. I remember people questioning just why the hell Abu Dhabi had chicanes if it was brand new.

Just cuz chicanes started out as a way to reduce speeds on these superfast tracks of old doesn't mean they are useless for any other purpose.

For instance, the chicane at Abu Dhabi(there's only one, for that matter) is a useful piece of track design in that it turns the end of the first straight into a very good overtaking zone. If you just made a 90 degree corner out of it leading onto the next straight, they wouldn't have to brake nearly as hard and it would be harder to overtake into it.

Its also a different sort of challenge for the driver and car.

The straight doesn't need to be 1.2km for the cars to pass, The length of the straight doesn't matter once it's above 400-500m

Straights need a flowing corner onto them to make the straight a proper passing opportunity.

Making the cars stop at a hairpin and then concertina accelerate down the straight is the complete opposite to what you want on a track.

You forget the chicane before the hairpin (T5,T6) which most people were complaining about.

The opening sequence of corners is a straight copy-paste job from Turkey's final corner complex.

Pile-up guaranteed.

Bet that pit-exit doesn't last long, either.

Yes, the length of the straigh matters plenty as short straights dont give a following car enough time to take advantage of a draft.

And you say you dont want a slow corner into a long straight, yet places like Canada, Abu Dhabi and Spa prove otherwise.

Interlagos's last real corner "juncao" (i think thats how ya spell it) is a slow tight left hander, we get plenty of overtaking in to T1, Hockenhiem T3 is a tight hairpin we get plenty of overtaking into the hairpin after that, turkey has a tight left hander before going up the hill into the tight left right left sequence and we get plenty of overtaking there, same story for malaysia too, it not all about the corners before the straight, the circuit needs variation so it can create compromise and thus different setups and korea seems to have that, a few fast corners some tight corners and a couple of decent straights, lets give this place a chance.

racing on both tracks, korea/abu dhabi in rfactor, i reckon korea is a far more fun track. The second section is just insane, you have something to do all the time, and you're going into sections where theres different lines that you're forced to take depending on your entry into the first corner. It IS like melbourne, except everything flipped around, except braking is even more difficult. Imo they could cut off the main straight, and just shorten the track to a run through the city, but seeing how teams will need to decide on a proper setup for such a half aero and half speed reliant its going to be fun to see cars like the force indias and mclarens shoot forward in the first and last sector, then see red bulls and ferraris fly through the mid sectors.

EDIT: First corner is a bitch though, blind into a braking zone... we're going to see a LOT of drivers screw up. Also, is tilke trying to make this track the highest fuel consumption track ever?... if teams run high df, that mid sector will be like melbourne, but extended.

Long straights are useful only these days because of the rev limiter.

In that particular case, it helps group the cars close together for the approach to the hairpin, leading onto the two long back straights where overtaking happens.

They couldn't be more different.

I think on the other thread about this GP that was going on, we agreed that the T1,T2 section will be the slow followed by fast version, so it won't be blind. Having said that I'd prefer the tightening version which reminds me of Bahrain T9,10 (old layout numbers)



I think you mean the section after the secondary pit-straight. T4,5,6. Yeah it is very similar. Hairpin left - 90 right - 90 left.

I think he means corners 4, 5 and 6.
Take a look at them again.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8144/f1korea1.jpg

Well, I hear some anti-Asian sentiments, that's my feeling. Some European snobs are pissed that the rest of the world are getting GPs. Why bash a track before it has even been raced on? Simply because it is not European? F1 doesn't belong to Europe and I'm glad that Bernie sees this. He wants to make it a truly global sport and I say good luck to him.

And remember, the cars suck, not the tracks. Two decades ago F1 cars could overtake.


I think T1 could be interesting. Looking at the corner speed and the width of the track, it could be that the dirty air effect will be limited and cars will be able to get close enough on corner exit to slipstream the car ahead.

There are many great tracks that feature only one real overtaking spot. If this track can do that and give the drivers enough satisfaction round the twisty bits then why not?

btw just because it has a marina, as does Valencia, does not mean that these tracks are trying to copy Monaco. There are many non-F1 tracks that have been by the sea and been a great success. Macau is the perfect example and very much like this Korean track insofar as having long straights by the sea and a twisty back section.

Also, looks like a great place for a holiday. You've got the F1, go karts, golf, shopping etc. nearby. The only thing I can't see is a beach??

I see it as a squandered opportunity because this is yet another 'me too' track. They are building it from ground up unlike the new Silverstone or street circuits like Singapore, they could have built something truly unique. Also, instead of worrying about which layout will provide most overtaking possibilities -and that is something which never works out- they could have made something crazy. A track with nothing but 90^o corners, with varying lenghts of straights linking them.

This track is a noodle and some elements copied from other tracks. Like other new tracks it is a forgettable layout which will only provide memories when it rains or 'safety' car is deployed.

"nothing but 90º corners" - LOL

Thank god you're not in charge of designing these tracks.


I dont even know what calling it a 'noodle' means.

Either way, unless you've driven it, you're hardly in a place to judge how forgettable the layout is. And as far as providing memories goes, we haven't seen any races here yet so you've no idea how the racing will turn out. Abu Dhabi turned out well in this regard, and I see no reason why we couldn't have dramatic races there or here at Korea.

I mean, I think F1 could go to Portimao, which is a spectacularly well-designed track, and the drivers and the fans would love it..........at first. Until they realized that just like Barcelona, its flowing and undulating nature would mean the racing would get boring.

We really need to start blaming the cars here. Watch other series at some of these 'boring' tracks and you'll see plenty of action.

More overtakes this year [thus far] than any season since 1993......why do people still bitch about overtaking?

Honestly, F1 fans will never be happy. I hear so much on here about how shit one driver is, how junk X asian country is (despite having never been there) etc etc. It all seems like wishful whining. "We can't be there or change anything so let's just complain about it."

Like sportscar and stuff? Most of the action is drivers making dumb mistakes, diving inside while having no hope of making corner etc.
As for F1 cars, true they are/were planning on doing some radical things next season to improve the show.

soon we'll just get 4 90º corners and just drive in squares if the FIA keeps on tightening the track rules!

I don't think F1 will go back to Indy...

No, even other open-wheel series. And the action is not always drivers making mistakes. You'll see that they can simply follow closer in corners, which makes all the difference in the world.

Folks, we finally found out who designed the Phoenix street circuit of the 80s. Burn him!

I know what you mean. Great tracks are known by the corners they have. Not a straight.

Eau Rouge
Maggots
130 R
etc...etc.

I don't often hear how great the straight at China is. So lets make another one thats even longer.

Straights do matter in overtaking, the longer the straight the longer the tow, the better the chance you have of slipstreaming past the guy ahead before you run out of road

If you've got a fast corner before the straight it doesn't need to be a kilometre long to enable the pass.

It's the super slow corner before the straight that creates the need for such a long straight in the first place, because you've created the added need for the car to cover the acceleration gap and catch the tow again.

In a fast corner you can get the tow follow through the corner and slingshot yourself past down a much shorter straight.

Good examples being 130R at Suzuka, Stowe at Silverstone, Curva Grande at Monza and Blanchimont at Spa.
It's a myth that you need a long straight to enable passing in F1.

You cant follow a car closely enough through the fast corners to get past them..........

In todays F1 a slow corner followed by a long straight enables overtaking.Just like Abu Dabi.

That isn't entirely true. If the corner is too slow, it'll take too long until they reach speeds in which the slipstream provides a big enough advantage. Remember the season opener at Bahrain, Lewis was faster down the straight but wasn't even close to pulling a move on Rosberg.

The acceleration gap is not always constant, what if the car ahead has rear tyre issues?

You're oversimplifying things. Take into account the relative speed of the car being pursued and the car following, the set up of the car, the aerodynamic sensitivity of the car following and the amount of turbulence coming off of the car being persued and so on.


The last corner at Bahrain is medium speed.

A great example of a slow corner before a long straight just not creating passes is at Barcelona.

Before they built the chicane there used to be quiet a bit of slip streaming round the last corner and then passing into turn 1.
Now nobody can pass into turn 1 at Barcelona.

Not always, but these fast corners are precisely that sort where F1 cars suffer in terms of being able to follow through the fast corner. They lose so much downforce that it becomes extremely difficult to be close enough coming out of the corner to get a run.


This can be the case sometimes, but there's so many examples of tight corner-long straight combinations that have PROVEN to be good overtaking spots that you're arguing against the evidence here.


Suzuka and Silverstone are perfect examples of tracks with fast corners that generally dont provide much overtaking.

Curva Grande is flat-out in any F1 car, so I'm not sure thats a good example, either. Its essentially a straight from the first chicane to the 2nd. Cars can actually go all the way through there side-by-side.

Blanchimont is also flat-out, and while cars cant go through there side-by-side, its still essentially a long straight from Turn 16 to the Bus Stop.

Just cuz you can cite one example of it not working doesn't invalidate ALL the other examples of where it does work.

Barcelona's biggest problem is probably not having a hard braking zone at the end of the straight, to be honest.

Well you've given zero examples of where it works yourself.

And Barcelona's fast ish turn 1 shouldn't matter if as you said long straights let the cars drag race each other.
If slow corners and long straights really did this then the speed of the corner at the end of the straight shouldn't matter at all, because according to you they should have already been able to pass on the straight itself.

I posted this yesterday in this same thread, responding to your post specifically:

"And you say you dont want a slow corner into a long straight, yet places like Canada, Abu Dhabi and Spa prove otherwise. "

Here's some more:

Bahrain, Malaysia, Turkey, Hockenheim, Fuji, Interlagos, etc etc.

Evidence is heavily stacked against you.

Whether or not you think it 'should' matter is irrelevant, cuz it does matter. If there's a fast corner at the end of the straight, then the cars are forced to go through single-file rather than trying to battle through it.


I never said that they should be able to pass on the straight itself. The point is to give the cars/drivers an opportunity to make a pass, whether it be passing completely on the straight, or just having a good run where they can attempt an outbraking maneuver.

The chicane was buit largely because there was never any overtaking into Turn 1. Even as early as 1995 it was turning into a snooze-fest.

How long have you been watching? Barca. turn one, pre-chicane was terrible for overtaking. It hasn't gotten much better but the part about ''quiet a bit of slipstreaming'' is fantasy.

i think you need a certain type of corner or two, like turn 2/3 at hockenhiem, and at bahrain too
i think a curved straight is better than a straight straight too

oh and the driving standards in alms atleast is pretty high, theres a bunch of gentleman drivers, but they arent *that* bad
and the gt2s can follow very closely. like less than a car length!

plus the intensity level is way higher than f1, at lime rock on average there would two seconds between the cars if they where spaced out evenly. with 4 classes, 3/4's of the field is going tobe faster and/or slower than you.

now thats traffic ;)

Anyone seen the new edition of F1 Racing? They have a bit about the Korean track and it looks nowhere near ready

Maybe that's why they've shifted the race to an earlier time in the year for next season ?

Well the track opening day has been put back to september was ment to be opening next week. Not looking good.

Long straight with a fast corner(s) before it? Yes, it works BRILLIANTLY for overtaking, we get tons and tons of passes on the hangar straight in Silverstone, and Magny-Cours was well known to be a magnificant overtaking-fest. [/sarcasm]



Like it or not, but chicane - long straight - chicane is the most effective (in terms of overtaking) track design for modern day F1 cars which are unable to follow each other through any corner at all.

Unless the following car is mush faster. Like Seb overtaking many at Silverstone for example...

Or Webber taking on Kovi in Valencia

Mark's aircraft designation was 'Flyer121' during his flight lol

According to @5liveF1, this was the Korean GP circuit last week:

http://twitpic.com/2gfy5g

Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?

wow thats WAY behind the state that abu dhabi was in at this point...

Then again, they might be doing the track section by section.

No worries - look at all those Koreans beavering away, they'll get it finished.

It looks like the roadworks on a British motorway. Lots of parked equipment, not a soul in sight and nothing happening. Except for that one bloke standing around doing nothing down in the bottom right.