So does anyone in this thread have any idea what red bull are doing or what tests may be implemented to stop them?lol

He knows it, described it to AMuS a month before, but they won't develop it for this year (it's too expensive requiring new design and this year is over already for them) and would be stupid to allow for next year too.

http://hunnylander.wordpress.com/2010/08/1...rchitects-view/

Ross Brawn described the same one month later, you can read it in German at Auto Motor und Sport, its essence was translated into this topic too, search back. But basically it's the same principle what my architect fellow told to me.

It could be got only by finely tuned multipoint deflection tests.

It's impossible to get rid of it for this year, there's no time for it.

Thanks for the info.

I feel this is going to be impossible to police unless the tests are held in a wind tunnel under real world conditions.

I wonder what other parts are flexing on the redbull.

That's about the size of it.


I'm sure they'll have a few more for next season.

Ill have to respectfully disagree with Brawn here.. Its very simple .. The RB6 has a trick part thats putting the hurt on everything that has a medium to high speed corner. The onus is on YOUR Tech dept to come up with an equivalent or something better.

The FIA should not be the avenue to pursue unless your damned sure that you can identify what is causing the trickery and its 100% not allowed by the FIA. AT that point you can complain and point the FIA in the right direction to find the issue on the car.. But if your shooting at nothign hoping to get something please dont waste our time.

F1 is about innovation just as much as it is about racing. I dont want to watch a spec series.

Do you want to watch one with two Championships won by a car outside the legal regulations?

Written by Mark Blundell? "This wing is perfectly rigid in its static state, at least to that level what is demanded by the FIA deflection test."

How many times must you be told that the RB6 is legal?

About as many times as someone tells me the sky is green. Fortunately I have eyes.

What is the difference between flexing on the RedBull and flexing on the other cars?
Where is the line that you cross before it gets "outside the legal regulations"?

If the wing passes the test before and after the race, it can be considered legal. At least that is how RBR would argue its case. And there is a distinct difference in the meaning between a movable device and a flexible device. If it were truly illegal, then all the other teams the FiA and all their lawyers are simply amateurs., being seemingly unable to prove that RBR is cheating.

It's quite illuminating to see how people have argued on spygate. Some of the very people that claim RBR is cheating right now, told us then the FiA cannot prove that McLaren was cheating, hence McLaren should not be guilty. I can accept that, but then I must also accept that so far nobody has been able to prove that RBR is cheating.

The idea has been floated that they use images as evidence. Fine, but that is a major change in application of the rules, and shouldn't be done during the season. If they did that from next season on however it will be the death of F1. Teams wouldn't stop to present visual evidence of other teams cheating. The championship will then be decided in FiA court rooms, instead on track. Looking at the images presented and how different people come to different conclusions it's be a waste of time on top of it too.

So IMO we need to consider consequences. IMO it either leads to total war in court rooms, or F1 finally becoming a spec series. Nobody, except the former FiA president would be happy with that.

And as long as the other teams don't fully understand how RBR achieves what's happening on their car, as long there can't be a serious discussion how to limit what RBR are doing and if it's truly illegal.

Sorry to be so frank, but IMO this declaring RBR car to be illegal by some fans, sounds like lynch justice to me. In other words, we know better than the law, which as I already wrote, would point to other teams, FiA and their lawyers to be amateurs. And we know that's not true.

As for me, this year championship winners will probably nobody that I care for. However if RBR/Webber get the job done, congrats to them, they deserve it, as would anybody else.

Well thank God that the FIA cannot introduce photographic evidence (which is not conclusive in the least) this year as it would require a change to the regulations. Red Bull should and will be allowed to race their car till the end of the season. Their ingenuity deserves as much.

Ingenuity = cheating. So much for sportsmanship.

Originally written in Hungarian. If you don't like the English version, read the Hungarian. It shouldn't be harder for you, than to read and write in English for me. That is the native version and more descriptive and precise. The Hungarian is considereed one of the most descriptive languages. Some studies say the Hungarian linguistic thinking may be a factor in that this little country has given so many exceptional scientists to the world in ratio to its small population.

Instead of nitpicking, you may perfectly understand what is the theory all about, if you have some clue and imagination. If you can't, read Brawn's word, he said the same idea, maybe inspired from my article.

Mclaren supporters...

Calling everybody cheaters when things don't go their way. Ah well, I can see a decent debate with you cannot ensue so lets just leave it at that.

Mclaren and their fans are just upset because there is no Nigel Stepney in the redbull organisation.

The biggest cheats of all calling redbull cheats.The hypocrisy!!

Technically yes, the tests are performed at random. A Red Bull, Ferrari and a McLaren however have been tested (both wing deflection and floor deflection) at every race weekend this season.

the wings are legal as long as the tests dont say otherwise.

Biggest cheats of all ? Back in the 70's, Ferrari broke into Williams garage to have a look at their car. Benetton 1994 - illegal launch control etc, plus removing a fuel rig which almost incinerated a pit crew. Toyota were found with Ferrari blueprints, Renault were found with details schematics of McLaren's car sat on their server less than a couple of years ago.

If you want to buy into Mosley's rhetoric (and total double standards), then McLaren are the biggest cheats in the history of forumla one. Sensible people don't, however.

Just for the record. That was Alonso at Renault AND McLaren.

So what are you saying?Everyone cheats and Mclaren arent the biggest cheats but......they are pretty close..........lol.

RedBull are just working hard to find solutions that make their car faster within the regulations.

They arent stealing other peoples intellectual property or breaking in to garages.

As much as I am trying to avoid you, I have to respond to this. I think you are confusing non-linear with multi-directional.

A wing that flexes in a non-linear manner (downwards vertically) would show a delection which is not proportional with a change in static load.
e.g.

a) Wing deflects 5mm with a 500N load and 10mm with a 1000N load = linear
b) Wing deflects 5mm with a 500N load but 15mm with a 1000N load = non-linear.

A multi-directional flex such as the wing deflecting both longitudinally and vertically or in a twisting motion is, I think, what you are referring to and I think it is highly likely that this is happening. I would have thought, however thiat this only makes the degree of defection more controllable rather than actually increasing it.

The rules is about not allowing for flex and not how it cannot flex! so in essence it's illegal and shouldn't be allowed even if they don't know how someone do it.
Since something long and thin will flex (in this case FW), they have tests as a benchmark to know how rigid at least it must be. The rules are fixed, but the tests aren't and there lies the problem other teams trying to develop something like RB FW.

I'm all game for someone exploiting the rules (DD, F-duct) but not for exploiting the tests. It's like you're going to a test with some clever cheat sheet that the teacher can't detect but it's obvious you're cheating because they can see that you're copying something at a rapid phase and not thinking at all.

Now for a little bit OT. My aunt taught her daughter some clever way of doing math, but at school the teacher didn't like it thus scolded her daughter. Of course my aunt was mad thus blasted that teacher. The fact is that she isn't breaking any rules but people still complain. Imagine if someone doing cheats and do it in open like RB did, there will be some fireworks out there.
My point is that F1 isn't a magic show where trick is allowed. FIA can easily prove that RB FW is flexing (video evidence, mount sensors on RB FW while they did their FP, etc), but they stupidly sticks to their way of testing (yes, they changed it, but it's more of the same test).

In the end, although I don't like what RB is doing (basically mocking the rule), I don't blame them. But I do blame FIA for their incompetence to enforce their rules.

All cars no doubt are technically illegal because of this very reason. It's does not mean however that all cars should, or will be punished for this. The FIA are not that stupid. It comes down, like most laws in all walks of life, to the spirit of the law. There is a huge difference between wings that flex slightly due to their composition and a wing that has been designed to flex. Hence why FIA allowed some leeway in the test.

It is exactly the same thing as laws in real life, You accidentally creep over 70mph on the motorway it is highly likely you will not be pulled up for it but if you tear down the same road at 110mph you are looking at a serious fine and points.

Same rule, both broke it, but only one is clearly deserving a punishment. It is ridiculous and naive to pull the "all the teams are cheating" angle.

I'll answer that for you, with ricardo if it's a macca then it's flexing and when it's anything other than a grey donkey then it's cheating.

I'm not big on Red Bull but Newey seems to have found something clever to circumvent the current rules, kudos to him and his team

That would involve rewriting the rules mid-season and the FIA don't have the authority to do that. The tests are all they have and until they can pin point exactly what Red Bull are doing and devise a specific test the car will remain legal.

I'm not disputing the fact that McLaren were caught for cheating. In my opinion there have been far worse cases, yet McLaren are bastardised as the biggest, most villenous **** to ever grace an F1 paddock.

As for the point you made, reference Michelin, post Hungarian GP, 2003, as they worked within regulations (270mm tread width, when new), but it still didn't stop the FIA hammering them - which conveniently stalled Michelin teams three day test at Monza immediately afterwards, and handed the impetus (and both championships) to Ferrari as a result.

That could be it.

Or, far more likely it is because the RBR has been designed to flex. i.e. They have found a loophole around the test that will still allow them to break the rules. That is the difference.

If you really are happy with a championship being decided by a car that is faster than every other and is only fast because they seem to be breaking a rule then I cannot understand why you bother watching the sport at all.

This sport has seen enough dark days over the last few years, I was fed up with the whole thing after spygate and came very close to never watching another GP. F1 often gets so close to farce and so far away from sport that I am surprised so many fans stuck with it. If Max had not departed I probably would have given up.

Since then however there has been a real change, we have gone back to racing, fair and honest racing, and don't tell me we have not had two of the best F1 seasons ever. That is all set to change with the flex wings, it is becoming ridiculous again. I cannot be bothered investing time in a sport that will allow this to continue, and I am amazed that anyone who is a true fan of the sport is seriously saying this kind of behaviour is okay.

Great post.

These people do think they know better than the law: they think the FIA is stupid enough to write rules that can't be enforced. And are then confused when they see these rules, which don't exist anywhere but in their heads, aren't being enforced.

Sucks for them.

These people who cannot understand the difference between a rule and a test.

Sucks for them.

And I'm amazed that anybody who actually knows what F1 is about can not give Red Bull kudos for what they've acheived this year.

Its sour grapes and thats really all there is to it. They found a loophole in the rules(yes, tests are part of the rules) and like any smart team, they are going to exploit it. You cant say that its the ONLY reason they are fast, nor can you say that they're technically doing anything wrong. You simply 'dont like' what they're doing and thats all there is to it. But finding loopholes will always be a part of F1. I think you know that, but being a team you obviously dont like, you just want to find some 'difference' to make it sound like their loophole is somehow completely different from another team's found loophole so you can rag on them. Sour grapes. Cry me a river. Go watch something else. And quit with the whole 'sporting' comments, cuz seriously, I dont consider sore losers to be very 'sporting'.

Then don't let the door hit you.... and all that Murph because F1 ain't gonna change whether you like it or not.

maybe you should try and follow synchronized swimming

The double diffusers, F-Duct, etc were obviously designed to be technically legal, but not within the spirit of the rules.

Now I don't know what exactly Red Bull is doing, but I don't think it's really any different. It's probably against the spirit of the rules, but technically legal.


And really, that's what F1 has been about for a long time. Staying within the technical interpretation of the rules, but at the same time make your car as fast as you can. Red Bull seems to have done that. By the way, I'm pretty sure that while Red Bull may have the fastest overall car this season, the other teams are probably also skirting the line when it comes to the rules. They just haven't found the right combination.

I'm certain that if there was no Ferrari, McLaren or Red Bull car this year, we'd debate how Mercedes GP or Renault are cheating to have the fastest car.

The problem is, if "we" enforce the spirit of the rules, rather than simply rule a car passing the tests legal, then we'll teams trying to figure out what others are doing to get them banned, not to copy and/or improve on their designs.


IMO we can either go the spec car series route, or we can congratulate Red Bull on their ingenuity until their non-compliance with the rules is actually proven.

+1, great post.

I cant see how anyone can devalue the Championship simply because they dont like how Newey & RBR are exploiting the written rules. They comply with the tests as they stood at the start of the season, and even after the mid-season revisions instigated by the FIA at the behest of Whinge-marsh.

F1's about innovation, if you take the technical innovation away everytime you get caught short you may as well make F1 a spec series and give everyone the same car.

How many times would the Macca fans like the tests revised? Until it slows Red Bull suitably down? Are you all cognisant of the fact that the tougher the regs, the tougher it will be on McLaren too? Essentially, if you slow RBR down by making the tests even tougher you'll (in all likelihood) end up slowing everyone down, including yourselves. Everyone will just have to spend more money revising parts, and for what benefit? Red Bull's advantage from having an inherently better designed car will remain, and logically they should remain at the front.

The only time we hear a peep out of the McLaren fans is when it's not 'their' drivers benefitting. The F-duct's not illegal, but stalling the rear wing is certainly against the 'spirit' of the regulations too. Maybe Horner & Co. should start bleating about that....

The analogy I would use as an example are the controls around impaired driving.

The rule is you cannot drink and drive. The test is that you are legal as long as your blood alcohol is less than .08.

As far as im concerned they are within the regs .. since the tests used to establish that they fall within regulations were applied and they passed ..

End of story ..

Hear Hear !!!

You do realize that the regulations include the words "when the car is stationary", right? So, saying "outside legal regulations" is grossly wrong.

There is a test for flexing wings and Red Bull passes it. Thus, by definition, they are not cheating.

I've had enough of the complainers in the paddock coming out with the resentful stories of how the "don't want to call it cheating or suspicious" when the entire purpose behind their bring their "thoughts" up is to produce exactly that -- suspicion of cheating. It's especially lame when you hear it from teams like MGP/Brawn and McL who each have implemented huge subversions of the intent of rules in their DDD and F-duct. I think it's fine for them to do those things. Ingenuity is the best thing about F1. But to bitch when others do exactly what you yourself are always trying to do just comes across as pathetic and spiteful if you ask me.

Ouch ,... Thats harsh ..

True but harsh ...

Considering Brawn and Whitmarsh are usually two of the most upstanding guys in F1 it does sadden me a bit.. However i hope they will let the jealousy go and get on with it eventually. Or if they really have a legit claim then provide the evidence. Otherwise they need to get their own stuff sorted and leave Adrian alone ..

Red Bull are finding a way around the rules. Not cheating, perhaps, but going against the spirit of the rule.

Well Ross Brawn thinks the sky is green then, he says RedBull are doing nothing ILLEGAL, time to visit the optometrist. But take comfort if that is what gets you through the pain of McLarens inadequacies.

The wing wasnt flexing on the main straight whilst doing 290kmh+. It only came down a bit in the corner.

Don't know what makes you think that. During the FP sessions it was certainly flexing on the straights.
Pictures in the corners can be deceiving because pretty much all of them have significant camber.

I can't tell if thats meant to be in support of Murphsters view or mine. If its his I have two and a half questions if I may.

The onboard went from the last hairpin into turn 1 and 2 on vettels car. As the car sped up on the main straight i hardly noticed any movement, but as soon as the car turned, the outer wing endplates went down dramatically.

They 'went down' due to the optical illusion caused by the corner's camber, imo.

Imo, its a combination of some clever wing construction, and use of suspension. Wich would mean even if there came stricter flexi wing tests, it still wouldnt solve the beding down of the wing.

IF the FIA wants to ban this kind of use, they should rewrite the rules and determine a minimum rideheight for the front wing and its components. Still i dont think thatl be workable. A car hits a pudle, front tyres dive down, front wing is past it over normal tarmac, its bound to be lower.

So..Brawn has his work cut out if he wants to do something about the Red Bull front end.