max agreeing that Alonso cheated

haha, what link do you need for that? Did he not drive the car? = benefited from the Ferrari information, and he didn't cooperate with the FIA, well, I have never heard of him giving out incriminating info to the FIA about spygate, but it's possible he did, so, then, what you want me to say, that Hamilton is also a snitch? I'll say that if you want me to

The car did not benefit in 07 or 08. Max looked till he was blue in the face and found nothing, three projects into trivialities, projects which were halted. It's far more likely that the stress and siege mentality contributed to the strategy errors in China and Brazil that cost him the 07 title. And that near miss resulted in Donnelly put in for 2008.

Hamilton had no emails. So how could saying so be 'not cooperating'.

Your whole attitude is contrived. Any driver in Alonso's position would have used a source like that, it was the culture of F1.

As for Crashgate, well I too believe he might have known, but at least I don't use the possibility as an accusation, that really is bias.

How should Lewis not have corporated with the FIA
about something he was not involved?
Lewis Hamilton was the only one of the drivers who was personally present at the FIA hearing while Alonso and de la Rosa where excused of being busy and gave only written statements.
Nobody of the attendants asked Lewis any questions nor did they link him to any implications with this Ferrari information -stuff or the e-mails
Not the Ferrari advocates nor Mosley.

The FIA never found anything at McLarens cars wich was built based on the Ferrari informations, so how could Lewis have been involved by driving this car?

Pedro de la Rosa, whom I think pretty much everybody likes and respects, was quoted as saying that what they did was completely normal.

It was painted as dastardly after the event. But before the event a willing mole in a rival team was simply an opportunity, the more golden the better.

de la Rosa had an invested interest to portray the issue as "competely normal" as he was involved in it.
I'm very sceptical about that being the usual modus operandi of every driver.

But I guess we'll never know for sure if every driver would do what Alonso did.

you are twisting what he said
i remember that quote from Pedro, but he said that people take photos of rival cars and discuss all the things they find out on the car
but he didnt imply that they all take IPs from their rivals and discuss/cheat with it and cause a industrial espionage with it

You are just desperately trying to save Alonso's ass! its not working mate

And not everybody likes and respects Pedro, he is a cheating scombag too!
Click to Listen what Max has to say

I merely stated my opinion that his previous behavior through his involvement in spygate creates a precedence of character that leaves the door open to speculate openly about his involvement in crashgate, I never accused him.

Undie the hamilton fan desperately trying to save alonso's ass?

Well then, no harm no foul, why not just give McLaren back their 100 million and we can all have one heck of a party with that left over cash!!!!

That was a nice one indeed.

And what's more, "save Alonso's ass", from what? The dreaded wrath of the internet fan community?

Yes, exactly, I said, its "perfect to assume" given his apparent character, now where did I accuse him? Where did I say, he knew, and planned and so on and so forth? as you are apparently "accusing me of accusing"

Well I think it's reasonable to assume your assumption of his guilt amounts to an accusation

lol

Well other drivers haven't had the opportunity, as fas as we know. We can't be sure, you are quite right, but personally I take Pedro as a standard, he seems the least underhand person you could imagine.

good idea!
At no regular court McLaren would have been convicted
The FIA judgement was based on the possibillity that there could have been an advantage for McLaren from knowing the Ferrari data
or that there could probably be an advantage in the future for the 2008 car
they had no real evidence about the use of Ferrari data, despite this few e-mails from Alonso and de la Rosa.

The difference with McLaren was they had a friggin dossier with drawings, etc. That is a new level and not something usual. But what the drivers were emailing don't refer to the dossier in any way.

Alonso fans who still cant believe the black on white from the transcripts from the council hearings in 2007 should watch this. Alonso cheated. He really really did. Sorry folks. Its hard facts any which way you look at it. Alonsos very own words from the emails prove this. Now you can try to deal with it by marginalizing it somehow. But it will always be there - tainting him as a driver and a man.
He is a brilliant driver but a cheat never gets any respect from me. The same goes for Hamilton btw, after his lying to the stewards in Australia. And De la Rosa obviously. I know drivers are no saints but those are very severe and different transgressions altogether. I can appreciate their driving but being a fan of them? I don't get that.

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none. (My personal guess is that it was intentional from Alonsos side to keep Hamilton uninformed)

No McLaren did not have the dossier. FFS, how many times. Just the bits of it Coughlan chose to use.

I know you want to have the team as the bad guys and Alonso the innocent, but your distinctions are artificial. They all had exactly the same view of what they were doing.

That is not correct. De la Rosa was very much present. His testimony was vital.

I'm amazed by the way some people who have no idea about the facts, haven't read the transcript of the hearing or have the faintest idea about the verdict still post just about anything totally out of the blue.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be...

So how was De la Rosa going to test the gas in the tires without the team knowing and helping him?

I have no problem admitting Alonso will take every advantage or tactic to win. He is no angel. F1 if ruthless business and I am not naive to that.

I fall short of the glory myself sometimes.

Max was the biggest cheat of the lot, I don't know why you give any special value to what he said. Everyone cheats in F1, as Bernie said, it's just a matter of degree. How honest was it of Kimi to put Massa on the grass at 300kph in Spa? It's against the rules, is it not? Dangerous even. Question of degree.

By the standards at the time Alonso's use of the leak was quite normal. Max and Ferrari dishonestly moved the goalposts to make it seem like a big deal, but it wasn't. Nor was liegate, if you consider the position Ryan put Hamilton in. You're being unreasonably righteous. Selectively so I would say.

However pathetic and completely irrelevant your attempt of discrediting Max is, it doesnt help. He and the reporter are only quoting the transcripts and he was not the only guy involved was he? Loads of people and lawyers were involved who all said the same thing but just argued how severe the punishment shuld be. Alonso only very narrowly avoided being thrown out of the entire championship. And the only reason for that was because of the great battle that was going on.
And your argument seems to be that since "everybody" cheats then why take any action. "Everybody" does it. Well, two wrongs dont make a right, does it? What a ridiculous thing to say guy.

His use of the leak was "normal"? The spy saga wasnt a "big deal"?? LOL. You actually just seriously discredited yourself my friend. The lengths some people go to try to justify Alonsos cheating..

Max led everyone by the nose. Did you really miss the Renault case?

This is what confuses me most about the alonso is clean brigade is that to do so is the Attempt to paint mclaten black at the same time clearing alonso, you can't have it both ways, deny stuff about alonso whilst at the same time making stuff up

So "everyone" seems to be your go-to argument here. Sorry, but that doesnt cut it in the real world.


Probably because he doesnt want anymore trouble and wants to forget the whole thing. I cannot say for a fact that Alonso knew, the way I can say that Alonso cheated for a fact in the spy-saga. But given his track record and reputation of being deeply involved in his team its not exactly a stretch to say that he most likely was full aware of the plans.

How typical... Now, compare your piece of the interview with the whole interview. Can you repeat for us what Max Mosley says from minute 8:06 to answer the question of Alonso being a cheat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfJl1dESNhk

He, as a lawyer, is just talking common sense, while the British interviewer is trying to put in Mosley's mouth what he, and many of many British want to hear. Mosley basically says what I was trying to explain with an example for five years old to another Alonso-hater : McLaren was guilty, not Alonso. When Mosley says that it was cheating, he is obviously referring to McLaren. But really, it is hopeless with some, because when you put blinkers to a donkey, it can only see in one direction

See how you started the post. I did not delete selective words nor anything like that as you attepmted to "imply".

How you were trying to throw critizism towards the bashers by starting the post saying what people that support Alonso should do or shouldn't do?

Really, don't feel like going on with this thing, believe whatever you feel like to but what I said in the previous page is pretty much standing.

If that is not a stretch, what is?

I don't mean to involve Hamilton in any way with the spything, but he believes he is more "involved in his team" (quoting you) than any other driver in the paddock, so following your amazing reasoning skills and without stretching things toooooo much (just few galaxies), he was "most likely" (quoting you again) the one who brought the Ferrari specs to the nearest photocopy shop

Dude, seriously, how old are you? 7? 8? If that the case I'm sorry kid, you are right: The tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus brings you toys every Xmas and Alonso is Dick Dastardly.

Why is this spygate rubbish being brought up again? grr

That is priceless.

I think you should get used to it. It's part of Alonso's an F1's history. Any half decent future Alonso's biography will have a chapter on it.

By "handling" you mean, driving a car with parts that were taken from the Ferrari, because he didn't handle anything else. He couldn't. He didn't "help to realize the value of the stolen goods" as Wikipedia put it. He did was he was hired for: Driving. He only knew his car would have improvements. That's quite different from "helping to realize the value" of stolen data, but correct me on this. The only thing he did wrong, not even guilty of anything, was not to blow the whistle when he should. So calling him whistleblower makes absolutely no sense. And I understand why he acted in this way. Try to imagine if he actually had blown the whistle at that point:

1. The press would have eaten him alive and the F1 world would have hated him for life (not much difference anyway ). I doubt the F1 world will be kinder to him if he had spoken at the time instead of doing it when he was asked.

2. Screwing the team for no reason would have ended his career.



As you said, it is based on beliefs. Yes, I am also not naive enough to believe that Briatore, his manager, did not try to negotiate Alonso's way out using that information which Alonso gave him prior the scandal broke out. But maybe Alonso did not know that Briatore would pass the information to Bernie and Mosley (according to a book anyway). For the sake of believing, this contract was negotiated similarly to the one of Piquet Jr.'s before he spilled the beans. And like his, many others. It is a strong belief, based on real life, not facts. But yes, I understand that beliefs are enough to reinforce your hate for someone.

People stay naive about all this is because they want to hate the guy and blame on him things, as I said before, that are as common as apple pie in F1.



Yes, it could be a reason, and that's why I said that if that is the case to hate him ("using" stolen data), then it follows that he must despise McLaren, not only for using it but also for stealing it. But since that is not the case, then the hatred for Alonso is irrespective of what he did or didn't do during the spycase.

So no, neither whistleblower nor blackmailer, rather real life drivers with real problems who hast to put up with a gullible public just too ready to follow a freak-show created by the media.

Yes, but this is like Groundhog Day. One thing is to have a chapter on it, and quite another to end every chapter with the freaking email-pit crowding-blackmail-Singapore tirade.

This Alonso cheating business must really pain you if you are already resorting to trying to belittle me by calling me a kid.

As for what you said, you are twisting things around. Perhaps on purpose? To clear things up - I have made perfectly clear that it is my own personal view that Alonso most likely knew about the crash plans. For Alonso and crashgate, we the public have not had the same access to detailed documents as we did with the spycase. Compared with the Hamilton involvement in 2007, there are plenty of documentation that support that Hamilton was not involved in the spy-saga. But all we have concerning crashgate and Alonsos partaking are comments from the involved such as Piquet stating that Alonso didnt know. It may be true but I tend to think Alonso dodged a bullet with that case and was protected by the primus motor(s). It is just way too unlikely for me that he was completely in the dark. If you disagree with me, thats fine.

Well, don't be so hard on me . You, and the rest of Alonso-haters, have belittled the guy for like forever now, so don't take it so bad But I apologize for the remarks. Let's see if you, or any of the Alonso-haters, can give the guy a break. I doubt it.

I've never said Hamilton was involved in the spycase, and I would not belittle him for other issues. I have the view that these guys are from planet Earth, not Mars. And F1 is not a pie in the sky or Wonderland. Real life is a tad more complicated. I think you know that too, but then you come to the forum and start pounding on Alonso like he was Dick Dastardly (not only you, many others)... as if you have some moral high ground. Maybe you do, but then don't complain if I try defend, as much as I can, Alonso, not for doing everything right, far from it, but to try to portray him more like a normal driver than Dick Dastardly, as you all seem to enjoy doing.

What troubles? They guy doesn't love Alonso for sure. His daddy also.

Dick Dastardly.. Nice. To be honest he reminds me more of Muttley sometimes

The reason I am posting on this spycase thing is that some people started saying was completely innocent in the spycase. Which he was clearly not when you exchange emails and texts about wanting to test the stuff in the Ferrari dossier. To me that is pretty outrageous. I would compare that to top athletes taking illegal substances to enhance their performance. As in trying to gain an unfair and illegal advantage.
I am not perfect myself, but then I am not a highly profiled person that is a rolemodel for a lot of people either. And I was taught early on that this sort of behavior is not acceptable.

Concerning whistleblowing - it was Ron Dennis who went to Mosley, not Alonso. Dennis did so after Alonso threatened to tell the FIA everything unless certain things changed in the team.. If Alonso really felt this was wrong he should have just went on his own accord without threatening Ron Dennis first. Or even better - when he first realized what data they were using before the season started. But he didnt. The only reason we know of this stuff now is because Alonso was promised a deal if he and the others involved came out with all the info and correspondance they had. That is why I get a bad taste in my mouth when Alonso says that he was happy to help clear up the spy-saga with the FIA. As if he was doing this completely voluntarily.

And what team did Coughlan work for?

Let me tell you something, this is not the first time when a F1 team has stolen datas from other team and some of his employees (including driver) know this matter. Trust me Hamilton knew, a lot of the engineers knew... Why should they tell FIA, they are just employees who are working for that company.

Don't tell me that if you are an employer and you see that your company has datas from other company you will go to police... Please don't.

Fernando's team

Yep but Fernando wasnt responsible for McLaren and employees acts, thats the team principal role.

The "funny" thing is the data was not stolen
It was given to them from an Ferrari employee
No McLaren employee went to Ferrari as spy or had taken away something, it was a Ferrari man who did it.

And McLaren was forced to accept this documents?

Thank you for proving my point. Selective reading is a bitch.

I you find something on the street , what you can need, and you know your neighbour lost it
and you don't give it back because you can use it
are you a thief?
It was not good not to inform Ferrrari about Stephney and fire Coughlan immediately , but who of the other teams would have done it?
Why did Alonso not inform anybody ?

Which brings us back to the question about Singapore: did you find any proof of his involvement in any transcript or word from the testimonies? And if not, why don't you apply to him the same criteria you are applying to Hamilton? (please note that I say"you" as a generic "you", not referring to you specifically)

Well it's a question of ethics isn't it?. How wrong was it to make use of Stepney?

That is the entire question.

However wrong you may think it was, a lot or a little, Fernando is in exactly the same boat as the others.

And we saw that the outraged parties, Max and Ferrari, were completely faking their outrage - Max had lunch with Fernando and became his protector, supposedly, while Ferrari never said a word against him and now employ him.

So the whole 'spying' thing is a non-event, as far as the morality is concerned. It was normal F1, at the time. The really immoral roles were played by Max, Todt and Monty.

What a joke... If some has lost something and you find it you will not give back to him? Well... you must be such a "correct" person.

McLaren if they would have been so fair they would have returned this documents to Ferrari straight away. They didn't. No other team would have did it maybe... but this doesn't excuse McLaren.
Alonso mistake was because he blackmailed Ron Dennis. This was not his job.