I don't know about you, but I prefer my fav driver to push 120% and to have mistakes, than just put the 100% over the table and go to sleep happily every day. Eventually Fernando will learn to keep pushing this hard without making mistakes, thats the way you learn.

and if that is true, why is he up there with an inferior car?

Because others have messed up too. Whether it be the team or the driver...

I'm sure he would have won still running down in 14th place


Like Alonso pushes harder than everyone else


Only inferior to the Red Bull

even to mclaren? just look at the aerodynamic tracks (spain, turkey)

McLaren-Mercedes 215
RBR-Renault 193
Ferrari 161

Sorry but Massa doesn't suck that much.

Good for everyone that you are not an Alonso fan then

His two biggest mistakes were partially negated by SCs (Monaco and China).
Alonso concedes he's lost points through mistakes this year so I'd have thought his fans wouldn't disagree with him, doesn't mean he isn't driving well generally.
Ferrari has been pretty good everywhere but turkey hasn't it?

the point is everbody made mistakes so far, but alonso is from the top 5 the driver who tries most, because he knows that his car is not that good till now. He made some mistakes but he recovered in an astonishing way
and is still fighting with the other drivers who have till now better cars for the championship!

I think that says a lot. When he makes a mistake then at least he is recovering to the best of his abilities. And if you look at where he is in the championship, considering the car and the mistakes. He isn't doing bad at all.

If the F10 updates go well, then I think he is in with a very decent chance for the title.

I'm not sure that his car was worse than the McL's and RBR's in Canada. Nor in Monaco.

Yeah so do I. But take Hamilton for example - he pushing harder than Alonso but not making mistakes EVERY race weeken EXCEPT Bahrain.

and like someone said Alonso has got away with it because of Safety Cars, RBR team failures and McLaren rim failure.

How many have thought now that Alonso is only good in a dominant car like R25/R26? This season he has had to earn is money but he failed to capitalise on RBR errors when Ferrari were the 2nd fastest team.

When he actually has to race he seems to be making more and more errors. If Ferrari give him a dominant car then people will think he is brilliant again ?!

How silly some people think, not judging when he has almost equal car and jockying with others but only when he has a dominant one - which even Button can do.

2 out of 8 isnt that good (and if we count bahrain too, than we have 3 out of 8)
So it is still impressing that he is within a race win away from the leader in the WDC!

I tend to agree with that. If you look at it Alonso has scored nearly 60% of the teams points. His mistakes can be attributed to overdriving the car. Although his mistake in Monaco free practice was racing suicide if you ask me. Hopefully the new package can put them on at least par with the Red Bull and Mclarens.

If Hamilton is pushing harder and still he just managed to get 2 out of 4 mclaren race wins. than, this means...

I cant see any driver this season, who is driving on the edge as Alonso does.

Ferrari is not at all inferior. I'd say that Ferrari is as good car as McLaren. It was better car in Bahrain and Monaco, on par in Canada, Australia, Malaysia and China, and worse in Barcelona and Turkey.

if you just take alonso into account, than your post isnt that bad, but if you look at massa, than you know that ferrari isnt that well and alonso is driving like hell.

He's driving like hell but making big mistakes for which he's not paid the full penalty thanks to other circumstances such as SCs.

I'd have thought most alonso supporters would feel that alonso has not performed as well as he is capable of this season so far...if they don't then they don't rate alonso as highly as I do and I'm a hamilton fan.

Massa is not slow driver, but he is having problems with this years car/tyres. It's similar to Button/Rubens in mid-season 2009. where Rubens was faster because new updates on BGP didn't work for Button. Or you can look at early 2009. where Button looked faster because Rubens had brake problems which Button did not have.

Look at Kovalainen in McLaren for example, he never could get the car to work for him. But it doesn't automatically mean that Hamilton was driving like hell every single race in 2008./2009.

That´s the point, and I am amazed how many here this seems to escape. Where would the Reds be without Fernando?

+1

Judging from Massas performances alone the car wouldn't look that much better than the F60?

Kinda funny how drivers reputations change, Kimi before Ferrari was a super duper mega hyper fast car breaker. Than Massa proved to be just as fast.. Alonso wasn't super fast but had good racecraft... If anything he has done to many stupid things in the races but showed some devastating speed...

my mind can't yet assimilate how people just judge ferrari, asserting convincingly the car is there alongside mclaren and redbull but massa hasn't been able to be even close to these guys...It has to be somehow imho down to fernando skills...somehow....which ones? I don't know, but if you rub fernando off the ecuation, where would massa or ferrari be?

and what really bothers me is that not only forumers don't take this into account but freely attack fernando for stupid mistakes. I'm seriously confused

And don't we know it!

Maybe Massa needs to crash so a safety car can get Alonso another win. What happened with Alonso the great car developer? The Alonso fan croud was trumpeting his great car development skills all these years. Looks like Hamilton got him beat in that department too. No surpirse McLaren didn't hold on to him after 2007. I'd love to see hamilton and Alonso together at Ferrari. Hamilton would blow that myth right back to Spain...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpaZ4BD3Kqw

should I remind you tests were banned long time ago?

and fernando vs hamilton outside mclaren would be the most ridiculous situation for hamilton ever lived, if fernando was able to draw hamilton with a whole team fighting against him, I couldn't even imagine such situation but within renault or ferrari garage, you'd freak out

Fred has made his share of mistakes this year but I fail to see why some point that out to be the gotcha moment to his career. All the drivers make mistakes! That is what brings us the drama and excitement that we all crave.

Some of us are followers of the driver, others the team. Regardless, come years end and the championships on the line, we are all rooting for THAT car with THAT driver to finish _______ so that we get the results we want. I dont want robots. I crave the technology but on the same hand I dont want the only factor to sucess to be to have THE car that year. I want the human factor as well.

Fred knocked of the "Evil Schui Empire" and for that he has garnered my continued support. The passion and emotions he shows are what I enjoy about the human side of things. So I dont see it as a weekness, it is just who he is. To each his own, but I hope to never see the robotics show of the Schui ever dominate the sport again. I dont want that from ANY driver, Fred included.

Irony of all ironies is the fact that he now suits up in the very Red i loathed all those years! But thats how the dice rolls sometimes!!!

May we continue to all enjoy the vast differences in personalities and peoples in the sport we all love for years to come! We also dont need those differences to bring us down to the point of a spanking by the Mods, come on guys, we are all (mostly) adults.

Come on Fred! Bring '10 home on top!

Massa is having a specific tyre issue the team are trying to resolve.

The point real point you are missing is:

- Where would the reds be if Alonso didn't keep making mistakes?
- Where would the reds be say if they had Hamilton instead?
- Will Alonso mistakes in 7 continuous weekends cost him the WDC?

Alonso is not what people think he is, and I'm sad others don't see it still.
-2005 and 2006 many said he was boring and just drove home boringly every race just to get 2nd places because McLaren/Ferrari messed up their beginning of seasons and allowed Alonso to build a 50pt lead both seasons. Because there was no other competiton from McLaren in 05 and Ferrari 06 he didn't have to do much other than play it very safe.
- 2007 he got beat/equalled by a rookie who did not even know how to setup an F1 car or ever race at some tracks.
- 2008 and 2009 was very poor years. I recall in the first half of 2009 he again made lots of mistakes. Compare how Kubica is carrying the team forward with super consistency that to me it shows Hamilton and Kubica are the best in F1. Alonso is still good enough to be WDC but he will need a superior car because he does not how to overdrive within limits of an F1 car. He actually has no experience of winning a proper WDC either by racing someone all season because the 2 titles he won he was gifted 50pt leads before things got even.
2010 - Probably the most personal errors I've ever seen from a top tier driver continuously.Maybe he is trying too hard and just needs to calm down. He is lucky only small sections of media have commented on his high error rate.

Why blame Alonso if the competition falls apart? Even the great MS played it safe in his championship winning years and his competition was even worse after Mclaren fell off.

Lewis had team Mclaren behind him to help with his setups. Im not at all disappointed that Alonso was equalled by a rookie who happens to be one of the best drivers today if not years to come. Any seasoned driver would have been shamed by Hamilton in his rookie season.

Yes Alonso made lot of mistakes in 2008 and in 2010. But the championship hunt is still on.

+1^

How would the Reds fair without the mistakes? Higher up.

How about red Bull? Same

Macca? Merc? Renault? All would be higher in the standings. How would Schui have been without his mistakes? Can you say 8 time WDC?!? I find that arguement subjective to say the least. You can twist it any way you like.

How would they be doing with Hammy? Well, IF he had the exact same year as he is having it would be better. We have no way of knowing that though. He might do better or worse. All we have to compare is the apples to apples single year to be unnamed....... Yet again, that year can be twisted to both sides of the arguement.

Will Fred's mistakes cost him come years end? We still have to wait and see.........

The only thing I can say that I learned from my years on the otherside of the Red fence is to never count them out

Let the year play out before you dig a hole for the Spaniard Hammy still has to keep it together when Button pulls ahead of him

I do not remember massa being even close to qualify and finish second (with engine issue) on the first gp last year

Yeah he is pretty crap isn't he?

Not as good as the media, the two WDCs, the fans make him out to be.
Its clearly an illusion.

2005 - OK big point lead
2006 - OK big point lead
2007 - Crap
2008 - Crap
2009 - Crap
2010 - Crap (for me his worst year on # of unforced errors).

He isn't the best driver that many think he is. His racing this year is not one of a complete driver. You can forgive him a few times but my god he keeps doing it every fortnight.

The drivers of RBR, Macca, Merc, Renault haven't made as many mistakes like Alonso has. Their mistakes have come mostly from the team.
Schui has made alot of mistakes but I'm sure Alonso has made about the same, if not more covering more races, nevertheless he is old and past it with 3 years out.

Surprising teams even wants him isn't?

So Alonso is okay when he's becoming WDC and crap any other time. Okay.

I guess that standard must apply to all the others too? Just curious, in your mind, has there ever been a driver that performed better than "okay"?

Schumacher 1996, 1998, 1999.
Hakkinen 1998.
Raikkonen 2003, 2005.
Montoya 2003.
Hamilton 2007, 2009, 2010.
Kubica 2010.

I get the drift. But there's a minor error in your list, Hakkinen became WDC in 1998!

Its more like Alonso is driving as he should. (Except for his mistakes) And Massa is struggling/underperforming.

The Ferrari has proven to be a race winning car from the first race. And it might as well be that the drivers havent capitalized fully on its potential - like Red Bull hasnt always capitalized on their cars potential for different reasons.

Big points lead? Oh the excuses get better and better. Whats next?


Truly, though not everyone has the luxury of simply being reprimanded for every mistake one makes...

Shumacher 1996 - against Hill? Common...
1998 I didn't see it, but 99? Wasn't his fault in the British grand prix? I can't remember to be honest...
Kimi 2005? Hmmm... blowing up those engines... German or Europe GP when he destroy his tyre by himself for no reason and having no pressure...
Hamilton 2009 a lot of mistakes... maybe you wanted to say Kimi 2009 who was impressive though...
2010 is till roll on... so...

didn't many of those drivers make several mistakes during those seasons? I thought that meant they were crap? Not as crap as Alonso though of course, but still crap.

Maybe we should just say that everyone is crap? And then we got a blank sheet of paper. And whoever wins on the crappy track of Valencia is the least crappiest. What do you say?

I think you nailed it.

Yes, that's probably right.

It explains why teams like Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, Honda/Brawn, BMW and Toyota wanted to sign him after 2007... F1 Teams know more than you do!

IMHO,

2005 - very good (he was fast when needed)
2006 - excellent (his best season)
2007 - good (he lost the WDC by 2 points)
2008 - very good (he put the car in positions it had no right in being. His second half of the season was really impressive with that car. Don't forget, he was was awarded 'Best driver of 2008')
2009 - good (he outqualified and outraced better cars a lot of times)
2010 - very good (in spite of his mistakes, he has never given up and has always come back stronger. He has been incredibly fast and impressive and beating his highly-rated teammate. He had some great drives like Malaysia or Australia, but the jury is still out )

fair enough...can you share with us your experience in f1. Basically to compare your opinion with those of Brawn, Whitmarsh or Symonds, who seem to believe Fernando is the most complete driver, these guys as you hint know nothing about f1 compared to you, so you must be at least...I don't know...uncle bernie?

enlighten us please!!!

You mean 'was' don't you?

Symonds hasn't commented on drivers for a little while now, and Whitmarsh said ten days ago that he believed Hamilton and Button were the best drivers in the world right now. Maybe Brawn still believes in Alonso but I've not seen anything in print about that for a while. I think all of them would probably agree that Alonso has made more errors this year than a 'complete' driver should have done, although all of them would still like to employ him to drive their car, as a #1 driver too. But team engineer and principal opinions change like the wind. In fact their press interviews are probably worthless as a gauge of how good a driver really is. Much better to find quotes with specifics rather than sweeping statements.