Wrong. If Felipe wanted to do it the professional way, he could have taken a corner wide, outbrake himself, etc. No, instead he decided to let him through at the worst possible spot... Felipe and Smedley let their emotions get in the way of the team's interest and for that they have to be punished.

Ferrari is now 7 points closer to the WDC leader, so a 1-2 can be different from another 1-2.

Do you mean except when Hamilton did it in Australia IIRC?

It goes without saying that Alonso is a very quick driver, and very good too... but I am beginning to think that many of his victories have been with more "outside help" than other drivers would have had. I would say that in his days at Renault he became used to this sort of help and found it sorely lacking at McLaren. Back to Renault and the "help" returned... and now at Ferrari, he's getting "help" again... I think he's a continually petulant spoiled brat who no longer knows how to win on his own merits.

I used to root for Alonso, but now can't wait to see him hounded from this "sport".

The drivers' championship is irrelevant to the teams.

Besides which, what would Ferrari do with the number 1? The same as they did with it before - i.e. render it microscopically small to avoid clashing with the subliminal tobacco?

well if calling me a fanboy (someone whos witnessed the behaviour of many of these drivers where they learnt their trade) is the best youve got, youre pretty much where I thought you were.

I sent you a PM

luckily real motorsport fans don't hound drivers out. These drivers have been pretty much deprived of a normal childhood due to having racing in their blood. But yet people who spend too much time on computers in their own free time seem to know better.

LOL

So when Ferrari won the WCC in 2008 and lost the WDC in the last lap they were happy with the result... no, wait... they were breaking tv screens....

How about some quotes on that please?

The only one I remember was when schumacher parked up at monaco to deprive Alonso of a qualy run. Probably one of the most despicable acts in F1. What Alonso said of the incident though, was nothing to what Keke Rosberg thought of it.

uh? you think Massa was fastest and managing the gap today?

Fact is, if Massa out braked himself today, I and alot of other fans wouldn't of believed it due to Alonso's constant pit wall exchanges and his in car behaviour. I was expecting something like this. Alonso doesn't like being second. I think the whole world would of doubted any mistake that allowed Alonso through.

Massa had him covered, all of the race.

Ferrari cocked up today. If they wanted to do this then Stefano should of done the dirty work.

But the fact is, there is a rule preventing this. Ferrari shouldn't of even asked Massa to do this. For this reason they deserve a penalty.

Not that difficult, anyway,

Theoretically. What does it matter to a team AS a team whether they win the drivers' title? It doesn't gain them one red cent. Whereas sacrificing the constructors' for the drivers' title costs millions. Frank Williams has the right attitude on that.

Indeed, it goes to support what I have always said; the World Championship is destructive of racing and should be abolished. Had there been no title at stake, Massa would not have been ordered to let Alonso past. But I can't help it if lesser minds demand baubles to keep them happy. Like a toddler after rice pudding.

I hope to god that the FIA DSQ Ferrari and today is proven as the wrong call for Ferrari. They are a disgrace

Fact is, this has been done by other teams (british teams too) even on this very same season, they haven't been punished at all.

Actually, I don't need to be an "real motorsport fan" as you seem to paint yourself, to make my assumption and to hope for what I hope for. I'm just a punter who doesn't need any clever and complicated explanation to persuade me that the cheating I have seen is not cheating.

As for childhood deprivations for this mysterious and apparently rare disease of "racing in the blood" I have no sympathy; all F1 drivers got there through having enough money and/or parental commitment behind them to reveal their talent and I bet just about every young boy on the planet would take the opportunities the drivers had in a heartbeat.

As for being hounded out of F1, I guess Piquet Jr was on the unlucky side of the grid...

The WCC gives you some money.

The WDC gives everything else and is the one which is remembered by the majority. It gives fame, and bring sponsors. Every team in the field would sign winning the WDC and losing the constructor´s at beggining of the year.

Frank needs the money and he is not a challenger for the WDC so his opinion is fair in his case.

But fact his that most of the F1 fans doesn´t care about the WCC and the WINNER is the one that get´s the WDC. If you don´t like it´s ok, but would be much more sensible to make all the teams race one car instead of two and problem sorted instead of dismising the WDC.

Agreed

I've often heard that the teams only care about the WCC. This race clearly shows that's not the case, as did Austra 2002 I guess.
A 1-2 in the WCC exchanged for a still a 1-2, 7 more points for alonso, a fine, a hearing and a buvketload of bad publicity...I' wager the WDC means A LOT to the teams.

The stewards have already found them guilty and Ferrari will not appeal.
There is therefore no need to prove anything. It is just a question of what FURTHER action is taken under the infamous 151c

Personally I hope that the stewards do not change the race result or deduct points from Ferrari/Alonso.

On track they did not do anything that other leading teams have not done since 39.1 was introduced. Their implementation was a joke and their after race explanations even worse but let's not pretend that team orders don't exist these days.

I'd be surprised if they do anything further, the point has now been made and it is up to the teams and drivers not to do anything in such a stupid manner again.

But I do think they need to scrap the team orders rule - it may as well be out in the open. 9 times out of 10 it is only used at a point when it makes complete sense, the only instances in recent times when it hasn't was Austria 2002 and today. And in those instances, Ferrari paid a huge price in terms of the public reaction, which is really all the punishment required because Santander will not be happy if Ferrari start dragging their name through the mud also, and we all know they're the ones pulling the strings.

It is your choice to listen to and read the complicated explanations and probing press questions, followed by coached PR answers after *every* race, not just this one.
What you saw during the race is the important thing as a punter. And ferrari didnt fake what they were doing or insult our intellgence one bit. I happen to follow other sports and along with Martin Brundle wasnt at all surprised for teamwork to come into action. Martin actually expected earlier in the season.




Plenty of good young karters with and without money lose interest and/or get into other things. I imagine other young boys on the planet are no different.
Picking fault with personalities who have lived and breathed racing 24/7 since early childhood and been sucessful, is pretty poor form from anyone.

Somebody here in the forum said something to the effect that Alonso would drag Ferrari into court in one or two years. Well it might be even sooner.

As much as I have admired him as a driver he frankly looks like a destroyer of teams.

Yes he obviously knew, just as he obviously knew what was going on at Renault too.

It's awesome how easy it is to criticize the other teams without looking at your own team.

I'm not criticizing Ferrari, I'm glad they made an illegal call.

I am criticizing Alonso.

Why? To say it is ridiculous?

I found it ridiculous too.

Please, leave aside the team-orders controversy, there are other threads to discuss that.


He said after Silverstone that he'd "pull a Raikkonnen". The first race after that, he wins.

Do you actually think he'll pull a Raikkonnen and win the WDC?

I do think Alonso might just pull a Kimi and win the WDC. I think another win in Hungary next weekend is on the cards and he seems good around Spa and Monza, both races where he was much faster than Hamilton in 07. He seems to be very very fast around Singapore too so who knows what might happen for the rest of the championship.

It's quite clear he has a slave team mate so it's a possibility. hopefully the FIA will wipe Ferrari from the results sheet anyway destroying any chance of the championship.

Hopefully not. As de la Rosa hinted at: Alonso thinks of nothing but himself. He doesn't deserve because of his character and how badly he has driven in the first part of the season.

Does anyone else think that after all this Massa won't be a number 2 for the rest of the season? I say this because if Massa is ahead in any of the remaining races surely there will be too much fear of punishment to let Alonso past? This could be even further discouraged by the WMSC decision if it goes against Ferrari, which I think it might do.

Really ? Is it the best Spain can come up with ? A pile of crap that thing you call a forum is. I read about a hundred post of the thread you provided the link. 99 of them blame Massa for the fiasco. The nicest thing I read there about him was that he should pay for the fine from his pocket. Anyway thanks for the link, it gave me a new understanding on why Alonso is the way he is.

I seriously doubt it. Those who seem to buy into the cult of personality, perhaps. They tend to end badly.


He has always been like that.

Won't get anywhere near it. For the most part Hamilton, Vettel, Webber and Button will immediately bounce back and be at the sharp end.

Having a lapdog won't help when he's languishing in 5th/6th place during a race.

Alonso whining on radio while driving against Trulli, had his team mate to crash and now Massa pulling over for him. One classy guy

I have to say that I've been naive enough to say that Alonso is much more likeable guy this season somewhere around Monaco race. I was wrong. His whining in last few races is just disgusting, not to mention that he actually celebrated his win yesterday.

I think that was the worst part of it. He actually is convinced he deserved the win. What an ass

I did not have that feeling. It seemed like he celebrated it because it was part of the ploy.

You are trying to give me a long and complicated explanation. I saw cheating. End of.



All of us have the ability to control our emotions and to conduct ourselves properly. To be in the media spotlight is Alonso's choice. He is an adult. He is paid a fortune. He lives a blessed life and he should perhaps learn to think about how he presents himself because to me and many others, he comes across as a spoiled brat who cannot win on his own merits and who needs to the favoured number one driver in whatever team he is in.

How much longer will you need to watch before you'll realize that this goes for every single driver out there?

They just have different approaches, as people in real life. With some it's openly visible, others make more of an effort to hide it - because they think it's a more sucessful approach, not because they are more charitable.

When push comes to shove they're all the same, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

To think about it - they are probably right. Pretty much everyone agrees that every team uses team orders, the only thing Ferrari did wrong is that they used it in a very obvious way. And who is responsible for it? - mostly Massa. Because he could have let Alonso trough simply by not defending so hard against a couple of real attempts to overtake, like Button did when Hamilton retook him in Turkey. Or he could have run wide in the corner like Kovalainen in 2008 in the same GP. Yet he did it very obviously like making a statement for everyone. And this is not very wise thing to do. If you don't agree with team orders then do it like Webber and resist it. And if you agree - play it nicely and quietly like everybody else does.

Lol, you are comparing this to Hockenheim 2008. where Hamilton was on different strategy and was almost 2s faster than Kovalainen and went to overtake gain 4 more positions after overtaking Kovalainen????

How much sense a team order makes for the benefit of the team isn't the point. Yesterday also made tons of sense in that regard, both that and Hockenheim served the same purpose, improve the leading drivers WDC chances.

That would take intelligence, a trait he has miserably failed to display.

You see the rule against team orders doesn't differentiate between first and fourth place or different strategies - it only has to be a team order that affects the outcome of the race, so it was the same offense in both cases. Moreover Hamilton was leading drivers' championship at the time, so you can argue that there were less need to employ team orders than now, when Alonso has to catch up several drivers. So it wasn't exactly the same situation, but similar in many aspects and the main difference was that Kovalainen did his part better than Massa.

No, main difference being that Hamilton would overtake Kovalainen either way while Alonso wouldn't be able to do same with Massa.

Rule is badly written but is written against cases like Austria 2002. and this case, not against cases like Hockenheim 2008 and I think everyone understands that except Alonso fans.

now that is a solid argument!!
BRAVÍSSIMO

Look, Hamilton was closing on Kovalainen in a rapid pace and he overtook 2 more cars on track that were faster then Kovalainen. All Kovalainen was able to do was either take a chunk of time off from Hamilton or crash into him.

I cannot even believe that some people are trying to put those situations in same category.

This is not a Hamilton or Kovalainen thread. Please stay on topic.

Lauda: Alonso Has No Character
26th July 2010

"Niki Lauda, who almost burned to death in a Ferrari 34 years ago. 'I've never heard a driver talk such bull****,' he said of Alonso. 'He has no character. This was the most stupid thing I have ever seen from Ferrari. Why did they do it? They did not need to because the championship is alive for another eight races. Why could Massa not have a chance to win, a year since he had the accident that could have cost his life?'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaon...Hockenheim.html