Hamilton didn't went after race to the stewards & he was a victim of more harsh move from Schumacher!
Why he went to the stewards? What he hoped! Penalty for Alonso in the next race?

Come on, it very likely was a RBR decision, I am sure that Vettel had other things in his mind.

Yes, why not? It's not like Alonso hasn't called for stewards to look into something another driver has done, is it? In this case, Vettel considers Alonso pushed too hard and thought the stewards will take a view. I do not expect there will be any punishment because it doesn't look unfair, but maybe it felt unfair to Vettel?

Why so keen to ensure he has no right of complaint?

FA is the most complete driver on the grid. He is punching way above his weight.

I got no problems with his driving. He gets paid millions by Ferrari to drive hard.

Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...

No-one's perfect. Most drivers have been dirty at some points in their careers.

I know people say will say it's different because of the speed and the grass but how is that move theoretically any different to Hamilton crowding Webber off the track at Germany? Alonso gave Webber room which I actually praised him for at the time because I felt Hamilton's move was dirty on that occassion. Others critiscised Alonso for not crowding Webber off the track like Hamilton did and now he's getting critiscised for making Vettel get half a wheel on the grass. The move on Vettel was way less extreme than what Hamilton did to Webber at Germany but I do feel it was right on the limit of what is acceptable. I believe he probably intended to give him a Red Bull and little more which he basically did but maybe pushed it a little too far.

No, never dirty. I refer you to Webber's comment about needing somebody like Alonso in the other car if you want to try an overtaking in Eau Rouge.

And Alonso didn't went to the stewards after race!
This is the different of limo-driver & the spaniard!

Vettel with "grass-problems"!

No offence but If you think that's dirty enough to put down the fairness of a current driver is that you started following F1 in 2003 or you just don't like the guy. Because those things you posted is nothing in comparison to the tricks that former racers used to do, actually it even looks ridiculous in comparison to the recent Montoya-Schumacher fights from the early '00..



Woha, I had forgotten about that.

Is this the best you can find on him in a decade in F1? Yep, he really is a dirty driver...

It actually looks more spectacular here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqp-hZSLHY...feature=related

Look at where the two cars are pointing - straight into the wall. I wonder how both drivers kept their cool!

Vettel is a smart man, he knows no penalty will be given to Fernando for this race. He is just laying the foundation for the next time it happens.

Clever boy.

I could easily be wrong, but when I watched the race I thought Alonso left "just enough" room for Vettel to stay on the track. It seemed to me the aggressive move caused Vettel to over-react a bit (which is understandable) and that resulted in him getting his wheels on the grass. Is there a link to a replay someone can post?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEW4lViA7j0

Judge it for yourself, but I dont think there was enough room.

I would agree that it wasn't really enough room Alonso left. Then again, remembering the start of Hockenheim last year I'd say the score is even now between them.

I don't think it is so much a matter of getting even, but a matter of agreeing on what is acceptable and what isn't. In that sense, Monza 11 does not look worse than Germany 10, so I would think both were harsh, but within limits.

My question on Monza 11 would be - yes, there isn't enough room, but isn't that what one should expect when following a car into a turn? I mean, if Alonso does not have to give the racing line, why does Vettel expect him to do so? Why start the overtaking in such a compromised point, and then complain that it was compromised?

Alonso is on his right by lefting Vettel no room,it was a position battle in Monza,the home of his team

I wasn't implying that Alonso had that in mind, far from it. It just so happened that, as of now, both did one pretty harsh moves towards the other in the space of a year.



Yeah, could agree with that, although I reckon bot were pretty marginal. Just like the MS vs. Hamilton thing.



That's arguing from Alonso point, and fine as such. Vettel would probably argue that he stuck his nose in early enough to deserve recognition (and space), which is also somewhat reasonable, I think. In the end it just played out fine, Alonso acknowledged that it was a bit too close for comfort.

Considering that, and that Vettel did get through unharmed, and that he has done comparable stuff before, I find the complaint to the stewards a wee bit unnecessary (although I'm not sure where it really came from, Vettel himself or the team).

Yeah, seeing it there, no question Alonso forced Vettel onto the grass. . .

Considering the speed and how far alongside Vettel was, I think this is one of those cases where even Alonso would agree that you have to leave a car width of tarmac.

Im not agree, i think Alonso always left enough room to Vettel.

Onboard camera is not the best to see because room seems smaller.



This is just when Vettel start to go out, seems Alonso is pushing him out and there is no room.



This one is taken at the same time, frontal view.

Anothers two images taken at the same time ...





Alonso left enought room, not a lot of room, just enought.

I am a big Alonso fan but Fernando gave him a squeeze job. Fernando has a good rep as a fair driver so I think this isolated incident is forgivable.

It was a squeeze but not an extreme squeeze, I think Alonso left enough room when he became aware of the fact Vettel was on the outside

That's a funny way of understanding racing.

There's no such thing as 'somewhat reasonable' as there's no such thing as somewhat pregnant.
Having said that I agree with your last paragraph; the outcome of the overtake is enough proof Alonso gave enough room.

If he managed to get thro, he had enough room, its not the first time a driver has to go on the grass to finish a risky move. (check lap 1, Alonso did exactly that)

True, on starting he had to put wheels on the grass, tho Alonso didn't cry about it after the race...

Indeed actually he went entirely out of bounds of the track to pass two cars, harks back to Spa 2009 and all those cries to disqualify Räikkönen.

Alonso never changed direction and never pushed Vettel into the grass, he was running straight, he didn't left enough room to let Vettel overtake?, sure, but that's what dirvers do, they don't roll the red carpet for others to pass. In the opposite side Vettel pushed Alonso into the pitwall for many seconds in Germany, so I don't get why Vettel is complaining to the steward, his move in that race was dirty, Alonso's move in Monza was hard but fair.

Vettel was behind and he did see that there was no room for him to pass with the 4 wheels running in the tarmac, it was his choice to put the car in the grass, he could have overtaked Alonso a little later with zero risk, but he choose to be the hero, good for him because the move was successful but it was Vettel who put his race in risk and not Alonso.

Looking at it again more closely, I take back what I said about FA pushing Vettel onto the grass. I think it was more a case of Fernando taking his line and it being a very fast section where things happen very quickly. As soon as Fernando realized where Vettel was and that he wasn't giving him enough room, he gave him more but his reaction wasn't quick enough to spare Vettel from taking to the grass.

At first I also thought that Alonso forced Vettel onto the grass but after watching this replay I can say, that he left enough space. Alonso always keeps the same distance from the track border, and Vettel simply runs a bit wide at one point and ends on the grass.

Martin Brundle at it again, his talking about the "incident" with Vettel.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm

, I suspect Brundle was still hurting for all the times Alonso has denied him an interview in his pitwalks.

You might want to rethink that. Of course there are degrees to reasonability, as opposed to pregnancy. Oh well, maybe it was just your subconscious not allowing you to agree with me about one point, at least not without disagreeing about something else at the same time.

Alonso pleased with 3. place

" A little bit on the grass......."

I suspect you are right

For some reason, Brundle has been trying to misplace Alonso's reaction to that overtaking from the first moment (How did he do it? Why did Alonso yield? Is Alonso thinking: "Next time, buddy, you'll be in the hedge"? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/14711653.stm), regardless Webber acknowledging that he felt safe because he knew Alonso would be fair.

Entirely different situation, though. Alonso gets paralell with Hamilton and Vettel before moving right as the other two cars move that way too; Raikkonen chose not to brake for the turn but to take a wider line outside the track.

Bollocks, Räikkönen did brake but he aborted his turn in when he judged, correctly I might add, that he did not have room to complete the turn on track without slowing down dramatically. He then used the run off area and kept the pedal to the metal. More or less exactly what Alonso did. Vettel crowded Hamilton to the right, who in turn crowded Alonso to the right and out of bounds, but instead of falling back, just like Räikkönen, Alonso kept the pedal to the metal and passed both Vettel and Hamilton while out of bounds. I have problem with neither, just pointed out the double standard.

Brundle seems to have some double standards. Remember that Top Gear bit about Senna where he glorified him for this kind of driving?
Schumacher gets harshly criticized for the same stuff.

From my perspective Alonsos move was on the edge but not over it. Striezel Stuck found the right words in his column. The drivers are there to battle for positions and not on a coach trip.

They can ask themselfes if they did something wrong if it ends in tears but it didnt and the overtake worked so therefore it was great racing.

And that is precisely the point: he chose not to slow down when he was behind two cars. Look, check the video and then tell me again that it was the same thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzieUS-X8U

And for the record, I am a Raikkonen supporter, but I am not blind to what he did there and why some complained.

I think a significant point is that some of the rules have changed since Senna was driving. You can't glorify a driver if he is breaking the rules.

This Brundle is a demagogue.

Brundle has an opinion like anyone else and although he is expected to give a balanced account of what he see's, the BBc also encourage he share his opinions too. This is the reason we see DC and MB disagreeing from time to time and Jake, Eddie, and DC after the race discuss things from their own individual viewpoints. If they all agreed on everything it would be boring to watch. We all know from discussing the sport on this board that people see incidents from different angles and we discuss things in depth. Why are commentators expected to often only support the individuals viewpoint? Theres always going to be someone who disagree's with them, and the programme displays this perfectly. The only way to please everyone would be for them not to comment at all with fear of offending. "No sorry David I'd rather not comment on that etc etc"..... Its these opinions that enable the viewers to get a deeper understanding of what is going on. In that article Brundle shares his experience of speaking to the Race Director and asking a question about the stewards powers. We wouldn't get that if Brundle was expected to stare down a barrel everytime he shares his opinion.

We should support this approach whether we always agree with the stance or not.

In general, when it comes to racing and technical matters I agree with your view. But those opinions should not extend to guessing a driver's "inner motives" for a move, particularly if said opinion is going to paint the driver in a bad light without any basis.

Surely, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the problem is that some people have more media power than others. Hence, more people are listening to them.

Exactly. There is a difference between exciting debate with nice and different points of view, and being a demagogue who appeal to feelings to create sensationalist garbage just to sell controversy...

Saying Alonso did that to Vettel because of being bitter of the pass Webber did on Alonso two weeks ago besides doubling is tasteless and cheap

And now he says that he still will be more harsh in the last races with Vettel............

So when both DC and MB said along the lines of Lewis being annoyed inside his helmet, its the wrong thing to say because in reality they don't know. Pundits and commentators make judgements/statements about this sort of thing all the time and Brundle is quite gushing about Alonso most of the time. It fills the gaps in the commentary and if they consider every sector of fans, the coverage would go very stale. I don't agree with alot of the things he says about Lewis but I accept it at face value. Just my opinion at the end of the day and neither of us are totally right in this arguement because it is what it is. A matter of opinion.

Martin isnt the problem. Ted Kravtiz brought it up on the F1 forum. Martin is a great commentator imo, apart from when MS comes into it.

he is the only one that actually thinks like us, the fans.