Oh sure, it's only your opinion, nobody's stopped you from having one so I don't know why you find it necessary to tell me you wouldn't want to be part of a value system geared towards my ideals. We get it, you don't like MS and you have your reasons -but so far it doesn't look like anybody on here really cares much for the same opinion you post every couple of pages or so.

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you yet that by constantly moaning and whinging about Schumacher you are basically illustrating my point that his bashers are a negative lot that you'd want to avoid even in real life. They're a drain on resources, on morale and are insecure types that're a pain in the backside to work with. I can't stand Alonso for example because he's a whinger and a bad loser, I think he's setting a bad example for fans that worship him, but you won't find me moaning about him all the time...

You can 'think' what you want, but a lot of people think different.......Alonso is much fair than Schumi!

Yeah, he's so fair he thinks it's okay to blackmail your boss because things aren't going your way. Two teams brought down to their knees thanks to his unprofessionalism and lack of class, three scandals, first to moan over the radio, first to moan to the stewards: with a CV like that you'd get kicked out of your job. But hey, I'm not moaning and I don't post on the Alonso thread to complain -couldn't care less. This happens to be the Schumacher thread so off you go to your haven and happy fawning.

Spoken like a true fanboy.....I only quoted Nigel Roebuck, I was neither moaning nor whinging about Schumacher.

Yes, it could have, with a little luck.

I've said this before - the car doesn't drive itself. No matter how much of a material advantage a team or driver has, it still comes down to the guy in the cockpit producing. I can't imagine Schumacher ever blowing a 17 point lead in the last two races to hand the title to another team.

Haha, he came close to blowing a 10 point lead at the end of 2003. He still managed to save it, though, if only just.

Not even if he was in his rookie year?
Or was in the final race, and his gearbox messed up putting him to the back of the field?

The intimidation technique —give way or we both crash— has always been present in F1. In fact, it was part of the 'guts' of being a great driver. Fangio used it more than once. The reason nobody complained is that is was an acceptable option in what was a very dangerous sport. The only thing one had to comply with was that the intimidating driver ought to leave room for the other to back up.

No it was not. Back in the 50s 60s and 70s the 'give way or we both crash' mentality would very likely have resulted in grave if not fatal consequences for those involved.

I am sure it existed to some extent. Senna and Schumi stretched it beyond the (IMO) acceptable limit though. One can see them as artists maybe, like Zappa or Andy Warhol, who both created moral rage in the beginning of their careers but when viewed with todays glasses are quite harmless. And Hitler looks almost like a nice guy compared to Gadaffi and Bashar al-Assad.

The border of what is acceptable has moved a lot and it will continue to move. In the early years the written rules were few and the sportsmanship code was complex. Now it is the other way around. It is inevitable because you can not rule based on arbitrary moral.

I am starting to believe that some of the sportsmanship codes of yesterday needs to be written down. With a price tag on them.

enough said then - we all know his opinion...

You are utterly mistaken about this. Former GP champions from earlier eras are united in their disappointment in the ethical standards on track of a few (mainly two, one still alive though not showing much life!) drivers who show contempt for the wellbeing of their fellow competitors.

The worry is that this becomes an ongoing and growing tendency. Weekend warriors in their armchairs and silly fanboy hats with no personal experience of laying it all on the line on a racetrack make some really transparently stupid remarks. Like Rubens was a wimp for his outburst against Michael last year! That the cars and circuits etc are much safer than in the 60s, 70s, and 80s is no excuse for some of the heavy handed treatment MS has handed out over his long career. It had been hoped that he would return to the sport "for the love of it" and put away his excesses. Well he blew that away in one disgusting move which was inches away from having him thrown out of the sport for all time. His reputation is sadly diminished by these things, not erased. The longer you follow the sport closely you more you tend to see these incidents as unacceptable.

The building up of MS's career by the nonsensical dismissal of Senna and Prost just highlights the mindset of some jaundiced fanboys. All three drivers became bitter and placed winning ahead of honour. A lot of WDCs between them so please accept these drivers are all among the greatest of all time.

I need to find the quote from a WDC driver from by-gone eras who said they were very agressive - they just weren't caught on camera as much abnd there was no internet to disect it! Someone will remmeber who said it, but I know we have discussed it here before.

Mauybe this one, I think it Hawthorne but it's bedtime and I will not search:

“The slightest misjudgement could have meant disaster for everybody, but even so we usually managed a quick grin at each other when we passed – all except Farina, who sat scowling with concentration.”

The intimidation technique was not used to the extent it now is, in that we may agree. But how else can we explain the overtaking of Collins by Fangio in the 57 round of the Ring? After the Hatzenbach Fangio drew along Collins. The road was, as you know, 3 metres wide, and there was a bridge further down. Collins conceded the place because, in Fangio's own words, there seemed to be room for only one car and 'how brave can you get?'. Shortly after that, Fangio squeezed Hawthorn into the ditch in order to overtake him.

This is what I mean by intimidation technique. The amount of intimidation was less than today's because the cars were less responsive to handling and security was almost non existent.

But I think the spirit of racing includes a certain amount (a reasonable one, though), of intimidation.

So we may agree on this: there was intimidation but it was never as serious as it now seems.

No - think it might have been a Lauda quote..will see if I can remember where I saw it

an old chestnut.

brabham was notorious for deliberately cutting corners to throw up stones for those behind. intimidation has always been a part of motor racing perhaps it has got worse and michael has certainly used it.

however the language in that article is ridiculously emotive. homicidal lunacy. huh?

can we name a driver who suffered an injury during a schumacher overtake? seemed to me that he and hakkinen always close but somehow never touching. the aggresive defense at spa resulted in what - exactly nothing - because perhaps both drivers also happened to know their own limits. he was also penalised for pushing frentzen in canada albeit no injury sustained. likewise much emotion re reubens at hungary but funnily enough not a lick of paint or scratch did he sustain. he deliberately turned into jacques but at walking speed - hardly an attempt to deliberately maim as the quoted article implies.

damon certainly probably believes the article is right but then he would. he had more trouble getting past michael than any other before or since. perhaps he should reflect on that common thread first.

found it - back in 2001 - seems like they aren't quite as united as you believe Muz Bee..

Triple World Champion Niki Lauda has defended the aggressive tactics used by Michael Schumacher to defend his position, saying that similar things occurred when he was racing.

Lauda says that improved television coverage is to blame for the criticism of tactics that have been used for many years.

"The problem today is television," said Lauda. "The TV coverage is done so well, there are so many cameras now, you can see what everybody is doing. "In my day we used to hit each other off the road but if somebody complained afterwards, we'd just say, 'I don't know what happened'. Now you cannot really do that.

"What Schumacher did and what Coulthard did was just human reaction and I can fully understand it.

"If you are on pole position and make a bad start you think you'd better move over to defend your position.

"People complained but it is part of the show of Formula One and I don't think that FIA should interfere.

"If they do and make things more strict then in the end there will be less action and the sport will get more boring."

Lauda also expressed ideas on how to bring overtaking back to Formula One, making the racing more exciting for the sport's fans. He criticised some of the recent changes to the sport's rules, including 'grooved' tyres and the increasing number of chicanes on today's racetracks.

"Motor racing needs action," added Lauda. "Last year was better than the year before, but there is very little passing compared to motor cycling where they pass each other five times a lap.

"The problem with cars is that they have too much downforce and the wings are not there now to allow you to slipstream and pass other cars.

"The lay-out of circuits is also a big problem. They have reduced speed by putting in chicanes. They slow everybody down, but you cannot get the slipstream to overtake coming out of them.

"I don't see why these new tyres are used. They could reduce downforce and speed in other ways and leave the tyres slick instead of using what are half-rain tyres in the dry.

"There needs to be more action for the public because they are the ones paying for Schumacher's 33 million pound (50 million US dollars) a year salary. The people in charge need to think what to do to make it more attractive."

Posts deleted.

Members in this thread need to calm down. Using the words 'fanboy' or 'troll' is just another example of a personal attack. If you repeatedly discuss other members in this way, and arguing about them rather than their opinions, expect to be suspended or expelled from the forum.

I was just joking anyway. What I meant is that although it has always been tough at the top level of any sport and all sportsmen in each era have considered some of their competitors being "over the line", I still think that Senna and Schumacher stretched that line more than anyone before them. That said, I am not the best judge of what happened before 1970

This post is a bit imaginative but it certainly gives a feel good factor to all hardcore MSC fans. I hope Michael reads this and gets some of confidence back.

Michael Schumacher – Comeback dream for the title set to begin in Instanbul park

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-photos/7062/.../175032/#175032
Michael in his fashion style. Famous jacket and T-shirt.

“There was an agreement that everyone would have the same size, but certain teams don’t respect that. Now there seem to be different visions. Will Mercedes have to go to an open fi eld again or will the teams respect what they agreed and do that? We are not on the same playing field. If you take the number of people we have compared with Red Bull, that is very different." - On F1 team downsizing

(On his capabilities relative to his younger years) "I don’t doubt myself but am I still as good as I was in 2002? The answer must be probably no. If you think of the typical development of a human being, you must imagine it is the case. I cannot feel it. Whatever I do, I am up front. Whatever I do with four wheels, I am competitive. How different am I and how can I compensate this with experience? How much the F1 situation, with it being slower not quicker, compensates for age? It is difficult to put in figures. The success I have had is maybe because I am exceptional. I probably am still exceptional to do what I am doing at the age I am. I don’t doubt myself because there is not sufficient reason to do so. I still have this great passion for competition. That is in me, I still love that part. There are moments when you are not happy with certain things but my nature is that it will encourage me rather than put me off my vision. If you ask the drivers, they will have the unanimous opinion that I have what it takes.”

(Questioned on whether he is on the same level as Vettel, Hamilton & co.) “Absolutely, yes. I can still perform at this level. If the cars were five or 10 seconds quicker, maybe not. Having been out for three years, being the age I am, I don’t think there are many who could do what I’m doing. My main target is to win the world championship. I hope I have enough time.” - - Schumacher on Schumacher 2011

Chatter moved to race thread.

Poor race for MS. Expected more from both drivers.

Nobody is intimidated anymore and it will lead to a lot more ontrack incidents. Sad to see him finish like this.

Reminds me of Muhammad Ali losing to Leon Spinks.

Time to hang 'em up, Mike.

The DRS was bordering a joke, no-one could stand a chance of defending consistently against kind of an advantage.

He was out of sync with the strategy because of the Petrov incident and therefore a sitting duck all the time for the others.
Poor race and Mercedes fading in the race was not a surprise either.

With Jean Todt talking about some limited testing, I'm sure RedBull's numbers of people will come to the table. It's not a level playing field.
Some limited testing back would be welcomed for rookies.


With Ferrari looking strong again, redbull seem to lock out, Mercedes looking strong for some practice sessions and qualifying is not what matters, Mercedes needs a strong race car to captialise on tyres.

DC, speaking about Schumacher fighting for a corner:
"He just doesn't know when to give up on it"

Martin : "What his career?"

When you considered he had already pitted twice by lap 15 he's done an okay-ish job, though it's a shame that the 3-stoppers still managed to get ahead of him.

Horrific race again.

No more excuses.

Best car. Plodders for team mates. Era when overtaking was done in the pitlane.

You can compare Ayrton Senna to Muhammad Ali but Schumacher ? No way.

agree with you . He lost too many time after 3rd pit-stop. I guess he switched on prime and used old softs on last stint (after 4th pit-stop) . in the middle of race his pace was very good (watched live-timing).

But main problem is still here - bad quali pace, which means a lot of troubles in the race like today in opening laps with Petrov .

Schumacher should quit, honestly, it's embarrassing now.

Race pace wasn't bad. But he should have yielded on Petrov.

But the one lap pace needs to come.

It wasn't funny.

It is not amusing to see a once awesome champion hanging around too long, way past his best fighting with mid fielders.

Sad end to an amazing career. Reminds of Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson. Very sad.

Same thought, should have yielded to Petrov. With the pace he showed today, a 7th place could've been achieved.

Too many negative things are starting to come together, an improvement is much needed.

Some nice passes though with Massa and Buemi.

their bias against schu is pathetic more than anything else. poorly disguised contempt which makes them look sore, petty and unprofessional.

Indeed Very sad to watch for me. He was still better in his peak career than the majorty of todays grid though.

He'll get a podium at Monaco. But who ever made changes on that car post q3 needs their head's checked. Stop trying to ****ing over engineer and leave shit alone. Its why the likes of Redbull are smashing them. His pace was great until his 4th stint and then got caught up in traffic.

you keep telling yourself that...he wasn't paid astronomical salaries for doing unremarkable things.

That is your opinion.

You can have the best car and still throw it away.

Plodders for team mates? Well, one of them is still around......

I'm not going to try and convince you how good he once was. Sadly for you, from 1991-2006 the entire F1 world thought otherwise. Still, the armchair experts know best, eh?

I didn't expect MS to have a strong race giving his qualifying issue wasn't figured out, he was racing into the unknown.

Without the Petrov moment, and extra pitstop, both Merc drivers dropped back, there's issues there.


MS was strong at Turkey last year with 4th place, tad stronger then Rosberg last year, so it's easy to jump to conclusions again, the team hasn't found any consistency, there's always some issue, only China did Mercedes look anything like race pace good, and even then parts failed at important momnets in qualifying.

It'll all be kept within the team, I'm still waiting for a functioning mercedes team over the whole weeked, race set up on high fuel is not strong and it's the most important thing, MS could of done better, but I think even he is annoyed with the ongoing issues over the weekend, Rosberg can't be happy with going backwards, MS had a qualfying that didn't make sense.

I'll put redbull and ferrari ahead of Mercedes and Mclaren also. Overall a 4th team still.

Here here, it was actually cringe worthy to see a couple of washed up never have-beens making sly remarks about a driver whom's race boots they aren't fit to lace.

I have nothing against Schumi and have strong admiration for him but this race was his worst comeback race since Canada 2010. While his teammate is jocking for a podium, Michael is tugging for 12th with second tier midfield drivers. It was an embarrassing view and must have been so for the management too. I question his long term suitability as a driver for Mercedes. If F1 was a circus then he would be the clown. The fact that Kobayashi is leading him in the standings is a testament to how much Schumi is struggling.

Is it bias when they're actually correct?

until his last stop he was smth like 4-5 sec off rosberg

but don't let facts come in the way of a bashfest....
his racing with massa and jaime was simply fantastic...that was a great move

And there were some very shoddy moves too.

I agree he wasn't as bad as some people are trying to paint here, but he didn't look like a 7xWDC today.

Yeah he might not be totallyslow, but he's awareness is gone, he seems to panic rather then defend.

not one of his good races but both mercedes cars were going backwards today....

he still earned a position from the dirty side at the start
btw, wtfk is wrong with rubens again? what was that all about?