Tell us about this "only" three times that Michael beat Nico on merit?

His career might have been different if Senna had not been killed, this left him with the likes of Damon Hill being his main opposition with Prost having retired as well


I dont go along with any of the excuses lines

2010 DC, not long.
2001 DC, would live with them(just), as he did with yesterdays drivers. We have a bunch of really top class drivers in competitive cars, but i do not believe like some here that they are all necessarily the greatest guys ever to step in a f1 car. Ok the strength and depth of the drivers might not have always been there when Schumy was at his pomp, but he competed against and beat some great drivers, including one or two of todays drivers, yes they were younger and less experienced, but look at what Vettel and Hammy did with their youth and inexperience. I cant believe how his past ability is doubted, in his prime he made the rest of the grid look average, for a decade he was f1s most complete driver. Now though i fear he's too old.

I just looked through the results

Well that tends to be my feeling as well rather than all the other excuses

I tend to think the standard is very high at the moment and a young DC would never get a top drive in 2010

Ah bless, you answer the question with a question, nice.

You like the self fulfilling prophecy do you?

So he's that good, or his number two's are terrible (pun intended)?

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.

You've largely agreed with what I said by the way, his success is a function of speed, endeavour, politics, collaboration, a little bit of cheating etc. Nobody has claimed that that isn't a method of winning and that he is the most successful ever. It is however why some claim he isn't the greatest because he wouldn't measure himself against his top flight peers in an equal way. That's why some claim he is overated, not that he's not good, just not as good as he's rated.

Awesome point.

I wonder if thats the route Alonso is going to go as well?

Don't be too sure about that. If not for Austria 2002 he might not have felt obliged to give back several to Rubens. Oh, and don't forget Malaysia 1999.

I was reading James Allen's book The Edge of Greatness. It says:

Simple. There are people here who had seen him racing (oir even raced against him) since his karting days, F3, DTM, Sportscar and it was easy to tell he was not special at all when talking about driving skills.

Even in kart events MS demands "special conditions" (some call cheating) to be sure he will be competitive with much higher skilled drivers.

Michael definetlly was not a super talent when talking about DRIVING SKILLS. Never was.

Anyway, i think 2011 will show us that Nico and Michael are very much equal, both beeing good drivers. That´s all.

Anybody here with brains would've probably realized the fact that continually trying to belittle the achievements of a 7 time world champion,91 grands prix winner,and a driver widely acknowledged as one of the greatest of all time only makes them look like an utter fool to have followed a sport that's full of lousy,talentless drivers (that even people on this BB could 'beat',apparently). For if the most successful guy is/was not a super talent,the rest are quite clearly garbage. Even random chimps on the street can come to that conclusion,only takes some simple application of logic.

So yeah-why spend all this time arguing about a sport that's below par,anyway? How about a shift to ice fishing or lacrosse or something along those lines...?

That's not easy to prove, given he has given 3 victories to Barrichello the same year.

2 very funny posts above, BRG I lol'ed!

So about the driving skills SEP, how is it he keeps winning the ROC's yearly and that was even commented by Ross Brawn early this year as part of the reason why he though Schumacher was still competitive ....

You know the ROC where they all get the same cars, even swapped around for fairness ......

Err, it's been filled, again I mention some of you seem to be confused on that part - it did actually happen, he is 7 x WDC etc etc. - the denial of that has some foundation of insanity by the way.

Again, gripping at straws to deny what exists, you in no way can prove that he would not have been successful, that time has past, it has already happened.

(And anyway, if you want to play it that way then you need to give him the '99 WDC so it's back to 7 x WDC ).

Who cares about the past? What's relevant is that MS is crap *now*.

Oh yes? If he was as fit at 37 as I was at 25 years then he is in BIG trouble!

Agree with Ross Brawn. Michael still competitive, that s correct. He is as fast as he has always been, Nico s level, wich is very high but not Lewis, Alonso s, Vettel or Kubika s level. Not to mention the all time greats.

You should not mention ROC because IF theres is or was a dominant driver, certainly this driver isn t Michael, even if he (Loeb) does not have the privilege Of driving only one type Of car. In fact ROC proves my point . F Albuquerque, Kova and some others showed us that given the same equipment, it is much harder to beat Vettel and specially Loeb, than the most sucesfull driver ever. Much harder than this is to participate in such an event under this exclusive "i can only drive a KTM due contracts i have with A, B or C".

Based on their past results I think you can add a few more drivers to that list:

Trulli - Has beaten Alonso in 2004.

Heidfeld - More than a match for Kubica in the years they drove together at BMW.

Webber - Though some might say he isn't as fast as Vettel they were very close all season long.


A few other names that I think, with the proper support from the team, could match and even beat Michael during the course of the season: Luca Badoer, Alex Yoong, Yuji Ide, Chanoch Nissany,...


Please, if you want anyone to take you seriously stop with all this nonsense.

LOL

and you are wandering that some here call you names?

people need to understand michael isn't same driver he was, not at all next year he will be much better than he was in 2010 but never will be what he was, im tipping him to win the championship next year though

Huge balls are required for using the word nonsense after all those quotes about Michael x Nico before the season started.

I see, SEP is new joker in town. I know what is his problem: his favourite driver Prost together with another good driver Senna have 7titles like Michael. I guess every title that Michael made over 4th was big blow to him personally. I am just surprised he show so late after season finish. Or maybe he is old acquaintance, only now he use new name.

ROC is not F1


The bookies will be glad to see you

ROC is a magical series, in that if Michael loses it proves he was never any good, but at the same time if he wins it is a silly event of no significance.

Cognitive dissonance is a grand sight.

shockingly true!

maybe the reallity, the way it happened, of Michael winning and losing could help you in order to understand that most Of those drivers have the same skills.

wow
you managed to write a post that doesn't make any sens. anyone at all

there are people who claim to be kiddnaped by aliens
there are stupid people
there are incredibly stupid people
there are people allowed to post here even though they have the IQ number of a day in any chosen month

Hi everyone! I have no special driving skills and I'm completely average, just came on here to say hello, oh that reminds me, I have to go and arrange an undisputed No1 contract with a high level F1 team, earn millions and win a record amount of championships, anyone can do it apparently. See you all later!

Yep, you're probably right. SEP probably suffers from a similar fan disease as yourself. Your apparent dislike for Nico PROBABLY comes from his beating of your hero. Some people can face facts, others choose to ignore the evidence and make excuses. Fact is, Michael is no longer a driver who can produce miraculous drives as the sands of time have buried him. With a lesser teammate and a better car he might have won a GP this year but so what? With a better car Nico would still have PROBABLY beaten Michael to the win since he is about 0.3 faster in the all important qualifying AND has good race pace and consistency.

I'm not someone who has nakedly bagged Michael in both his first and second careers in F1 (other than for his lack of sportsmanship) as he WAS a particularly good driver whose miracles especially at Spa thrilled me. It always hurt to see such an excellent driver devalue his undoubtedly fine career by things like the deliberate move on JV at Jerez, the parking incident at Monaco and more recently the Barrichello outrage. To excuse those things in the face of many other questionable tactics is to be one-eyed. I guess to be honest I feel Michael is now getting his come-uppance for his misdeeds from the young F1 set who are not to be intimidated and are in many cases very fast. I do believe there is a human face to Michael as Brawn has often said but he hides it so often behind a stony face which denies what we can all see. Somehow 2010 for many of us was, we hoped, to be the year that a more human and humane Michael raced for enjoyment and with integrity. Hungary 2010 proved otherwise and his entire career will always be blighted by his ruthlessness.

Having returned home this week from an event where I witnessed a fatal crash it brings more and more into focus how the safety and sportsmanship of competitors is paramount. Michael and Ayrton both took the sport beyond these principles and put winning at all costs as their guiding mark. But it's Michael who has consistently shown how little he cares for principle and how much for winning. Even scoring 1 WDC point in - for him - a meaningless season, is worth driving a competitor off the road for.

Lets make this as simple as possible:

MSC has won 7 WDCs. That is all that matters! When the day comes where someone does that, no matter what car they are driving or what position they have in their team, only then you can come back and talk about MSC. For now, whatever anyone says is just nonsense. The numbers are there and no one has achieved them so far. PERIOD!

It's not winning what counts, for the real sportloving fans, or how many, but HOW.


For Schumacher fans none of that matters, because only HE can walk on water.


Or should I try that in German?

No, it's not. Really, it's just not.

of course it's not

the thing is anything somebody that is hated achieves => doesn't matter
what anybody else as an expert behind a keyboard can imagine => does matter

7 times wdc = a living legend. nothing can change that

This is *such* B.S.

There may be a few diehard Schu fanatics for whom the guy can do wrong, but for most of us mere fans, we see an extraordinarily talented driver, whose speed and focus dominated the sport for a decade, but who also was flawed by a combination of sometimes over-the-top ruthlessness, and sometimes "red-mist" errors. To say that fans see him as someone who "can walk on water" merely sets up a strawman, and is too-often the debating tactic of the simple-minded.

The romantic notion that prior to Senna and Schumacher, F1 drivers were oh-so-much-more sporting is a bit naive.

That notion is made up by those who've not watched the sport before the 90s.

BTW, good assessment there. I think you speak for much of the F1 watching public who are not Schumacher fans. I too believe the same about him, an extraordinarily talented driver, who, sometimes, when in critical situations, pushed the lines of sportsmanship due to his uncontrollable desire to win. But thats not what Schumacher is : Its only part of what he is. An ugly part nevertheless, but I remember him for his heroics behind the steering wheel more than his imperfections.

Most people who sit behind the comfort of their computer screens, and spit venom on sportsmen like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton, dont know a thing about the kind of effort these guys put into their careers. There is decades of blood, sweat and tears that goes into guys like these that make it to the top of a professional sport. When push comes to shove, in a title decider, Schumacher wasnt nearly as composed or "gentlemanly" as Hill was or Button is. Does that take away any of his records ? No it doesnt

Some people are better at handling a tight situation in the sport than others. Its clear Schumacher isnt one of them. So what ? How does that "diminish his achievements" in any way whatsoever ?

To be so judgemental about a drivers' behaviour is completely insane.

What has always grated on me is that those who judge Schumacher so harshly just never apply these criteria to everyone else.. they either cannot or will not see the incidents that should, in fairness, similarly marr the careers of other pominent drivers.

Thnk of Damon Hill, who on causing an accident in a dangerous corner, said 'I was bored of sitting behind the guy'
Or Rubens who caused (in a fit pf pique) another driver to drive half a lap of monaco with a foreign object in his front wing.
Or Webber, who has taken half the field out in insane defence moves at one time or another.
etc etc
They pretty much all have a laundry list of incidents where they behaved in a way that was cavalier about causing accidents.

Just because Mika Hakkinen was (once he had his accident and grew up anyway) a seemingly perfect on track gentleman, does not mean that that is very common let alone typical. it is not and never has been.

People were more cautious in earlier decades because they did not want to die or kill someone and that was a likely outcome of an accident. If things then had been as safe as they were now there is no reason to imagine people would have behaved better. They never did in life in general so why in motor racing? Its all rose tinted glasses.

Excellent Post

People like Sep are simply here to troll. No one who knows even a little bit about F1 would say that MS is not a good driver. It's ok for him to think he's not the best - but to say he's only an average driver is insane.

Well, I don't wanna go into lenghts about this issue, but, IMO, all the racing guys you've mentioned have very debatable psyco behaviour.

The "uncontrollable desire to win" transported to the business world could mean a financial executive to committ a fraud and make up the numbers to keep his/her job or even get promoter at the expense of a more capable professional.
Is it a behaviour to be praised or condemned in your judgement ?

I've read Senna's bios, but couldn't ID why such a strong desire to win and I don't agree with some of his behaviourism either.
Schumacher was the son of a go kart janitor that was despised by the rich competitors. Didn't help being managed by Flav and Weber.
Alonso ask other people to crash so he can raise his chances of winning. Didn't help being managed by Flav.
Lewis does some minor cheats behind the SC, like in Australia and Valencia.

In fact there used to be a highet level of sportmanship, specially at the times of Sir Jack, Emerson and Lauda.
However, from time to time, someone comes to break the code of honor to gain some advantage. Then the crowd copy the behaviour - to defend themselves - lowering the overall standard.
It happened to Alan Jones, Senna, Schumy and Alonso.

Stewart wasn't an hypocrite when he complain about nowhadays drivers behaviour bcs he lived the Code of Honor, that existed partly bcs cars were fragile and death was present to races. So rogue behaviour on track was really threatening their lives.
Emerson was the Driver Steward that imposed the biggest number of penalties to drivers/teams in 2010.
So, yes... there was a higuer level of chivalry in F1.

Or, as Lauda (I at least think it was him) once put it: There were simply less cameras.

Zoe

In F1 at the moment there is: one 7 time WDC,one 2 time WDC and 3 one timers. Who is superior to the others? It is tough one? Even Michael is last one in the race ,he is still Superior. In every group picture he is still Number 1. When he is at F1 race he is still Numero Uno. Every time ,all the time, forever.
About Nico I always say he is not worst than top drivers. If I said something was against his fans, not him. Usually Michael haters try to make Nico bad/average driver. Not me. But, you will never see me in Nico thread. I don't care.

He use to be numero uno

John Rambo cared about the past actually, you discredit his name..

Indeed Lauda and well said.

Even when theres plenty of cameras around it's still impossible to track most of whats really happening and even then you are reliant on the camera angle offered which often distorts who's really at fault. I think 'blimp cam' from way overhead would be the only reliable angle but thats rare.

No not really. He got over the past in the first film.

Indeed it is not and I fully agree but how come this is referenced as nothing to do with the skills of F1 yet his average Sportscar career is often referenced?

Could it shockingly be that he is a winner at ROC but, as mentioned, just average in a Sortscar?

Nah, whats got into me, sorry for the insinuation .......



He did indeed;

1994
1995
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004

Hmm let me count that - Wow, I get 7 times WDC, amazing!!

You definitely have a point there, 7timesbetter
2010 supports your views - Schumacher comes back in a highly competitive field and look how average he is. Even a Rosberg who hasn´t won a race yet drives circles around Mighty Michael.

I wouldn´t go as far as calling him the most overrated F1 driver in history, though. You are being a bit extreme there....

Indeed. Given what Prost has showed at the ROC event, one can say that the drivers of the 80's are the most overrated of all times.