It's not the regulations, it's the car +tires + driving style combination. Michael simply isn't coping with it as well as Rosberg. Shit happens, we'll see next year.

after his last stop for a nose cones his laptimes were really good and i dont think they changed his tyres then? from his after race interview it didnt sound like it

Fastest Laps
4 3 M. SCHUMACHER Mercedes GP Petronas F1 Team 1:49.680 set on lap 54

8 4 N. ROSBERG Mercedes GP Petronas F1 Team 1:50.125 set on lap 55
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_me...n-race-laps.pdf

schumachers fastest sector times were better than rosbergs aswell
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_me...ace-sectors.pdf

schumachers last stint had good laptimes
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_me...ce-analysis.pdf

his early pace in the race was pretty poor but the stats show the pace is there for some reason hes just not delivering it or kills the tyres.

if someone can find out if he changed tyres or just the front wing for that stop it would be a big help

Leave aside what he did before he retired 3 seasons ago. If he were a rookie what would your comments on his performance be?

That he is just a rookie and he should get a further chance, especially since we have no testing. I honestly don't believe that based on his showing this year he shouldn't be in F1.

Of course they changed the tyres to soft compound. You just have to watch the race careful.

Just to expand on that:
From what I heard, from people that work in the car industry, the problem isn't the car or the tyres it's the combo of both. If Schumacher had a normal car with these tyres he wouldn't have that much of an issue, and if he had 'normal' tyres with this car he wouldn't have an issue with the tyres. The problem is that the car has a very high CoG(something that Brawn admitted lately), which is probably a side effect of the unique roll structure(Which was pointed out at the Barca GP by a rival team). Now a car with a high CoG will transfer more weight to the front. If the tyre keeps providing grip then this isn't a huge issue but these tyres saturate and stop providing grip no matter how much load is provided. Not only that but the tyres will be loaded unevenly, which is normal but it will be more extreme in this case, as weight will be transferred to the outside tyre.
So all in all it's a bit of a perfect storm as you have a driver that loves to load the tyres, a car that loads the tyres even if you don't want it and tyres that only accept a very limited load!

Its wierd that he set the 4th fastest lap after only alonso, vettel and kubica.

No point reading too much into stuff like that though.. onwards and upwards

"Well he could be doing better on track but our car sales have gone through the roof so he stays".

The fact that this thread keeps topping the forum because of what he did 3 years before should tell you theres more to F1 than who crosses the line first, seen how many people subscribe to Bruno Senna's thread in comparison for example?

The "Robert Kubica" thread has 1/10th the subscription for example and Kubica is clearly doing a better job presently.

Clearly this was not a good performance. Lack of pace in in the majority of first stint pretty much decided the outcome. I think even without Koba's stunt Michael would have ended without points as the gap between him and folks who have pitted earlier was not big enough. But that's life. Looking forward to Japan!

It's not a simplification (gross or otherwise) becasue it's not an attempt to describe what drivers and teams have to deal with.

It's an attempt to debunk the most commonly stated reasons (excuses) for MSCs lacklustre performance.

The tyres do not suit you or not suit you, it's not a binary solution. The car does not have 2 settings; fast or easy on the tyres.

There are 24 drivers on the grid, there's more than 2 styles of driving, therse's 24 and there all adapting themselves to what there cars will do.

The reason MSC is not leading the WDC is part MSC and part MGP.

The reason MSC is not leading ROS, KUB, SUT is all Michael

Are you aware your first reason contradicts your second reason?

Michael got an absolute roasting on the red button (BBC) forum yesterday. Man, even I thought they were a bit harsh.

What a difference six months can make, Sakae.

I am sure you had the best intentions opening this thread - of course, what amused me from the beginning was the claim "I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well"....

"To convert somebody" has religious connotations, and indeed it seems like the belief in Schumacher to me, what I can read from the posts of certain members here. No matter what happens on the track, no matter how good or bad Schumacher is really doing, the posts keep coming with religious imbrues, blind to reality.

Those who see the reality and "call a spade a spade" risk to get abused verbally.

So this thread is an excellent study in fan psychology (mind you, the closeness of the terms "fan" and "fanatic" becomes very obvious here) and you should not feel bad about it, Sakae. It´s the human state we witness manifesting here, with those having balanced views (this category generally avois this thread), those who are apologists of Mr. Schumacher and those who are critics of the man, whose record is higher than any other driver in the history of F1, but who very obviously missed the right time to stay out of the sport.

What drove Schumacher to come back? The arrogance to think that he can still drive better than the top drivers of today and show it to the youngsters or simply the joy of racing in F1.... or other factors - this can only be mused about - what Michael Schumacher can indeed learn this year is some humility and that manoeuvres like the one at Hungaroring are not acceptable anymore.

Be it Barrichello, Alguesuari or Kobayashi, they are not imtimitated by one Michael Schumacher anymore, and it is questionable, if it is enough to rest on the laurels of old and then try smile it all away. Michael´s status is such that he can still hold on to what he is doing, but I wonder, how Brawn, Haug or the Mercedes bosses are really feeling deep down inside. Haug, when interviewed about Michael, sometimes gives the impression of a deer looking into the headlights of a car...

One question to you, Sakae: is MiPe your former poster ID here? Strangely enough the reply function to your first post gives "MiPe" and not "Sakae".

How so?

Quite so.

Brundle's assessment of Schu's position seemed quite credible; Wait till February, try out the new tyres, check out the new car and if all seems good, stay. If it doesn't look promising, bow out.

Can somebody explain why after Sutil and Hulk get 20sec penalty, they are still infront of Petrov and Jaime, who were less than 6-7 sec behind them?

That´s fair and all that can be said. Kudos to Brundle for his mostly objective commentary.

Well I seriously doubt he has had any impact on car sales, but it's quite possible that some sponsors have come in because of his return. But I still believe if he were a rookie that there would be far more calling for him to be sacked.

Its quite simple. At these tracks he's over driving the car to get some performance from it and it happens his race pace. You can't setup an understeering developed car and throw a shit load of oversteer at it and expect it to be fantastic. Rosberg can adapt because his style is not so aggressive.

eddie jordan was a bit over the top lol, you would think its eddie jordans legacy.... oh wait aparently he was the one that discovered MSC when he handed over his bg fat cheque and paid for a drive.

jake just seems to jump on whatever bandwagon he thinks the english fans wants to hear...

martin is the only one who tries to give a real opinion but sometimes he seems biased aswell, hes very harsh if schumacher makes any mistakes but webber etc can plow into people , hamilton can cut people off and leave them with no room to go or destroy his race and he never says anything.

Stop saying such a stupid thing like one loos his talent it is imposible to loos the talent etiher you have it or you do not have it. Only talent will not bring you the WDC winn do you also know that. The talent will only bring driver to F1 competition. Each driver in F1 grid is talented but there can only be one champion. There are a lot of factors whic has the influence on the driver abilities and one of those factors is also talent. You would be right to say that Schumacher lost speed and it is not good enoug in comparison to Rosberg evrithing else is youst trolling.

Agree. I would extend it a bit and have MS try to race the first European races next year. If he continues to be utterly dominated by Rosberg I doubt he will find the motivation to keep showing up in races and have reporters every time ask how long he plans to continue humiliating himself. MS isn't catching Nico, he's falling back further and seems to be at a total loss about how to first setup the car and then drive it for optimum performance over a longer stint.

I saw an MS interview of Michael on Star Sports (Singapore). They asked if he was planning on coming back next year. MS gave the same answer I had read from an Autosport interview earlier, word for word. He tried to look relaxed, but managed an expression of a deer caught in the headlights, trying to smile.

I think Michael will stay next year, because he is greatly involved in the building of the next year car. He will want to try it.
About deer expression that a lot of people mentioned here, I believe I see such on Lewis face too after last two races. And on the other faces too. What this mean?

Is it? So every driver who was ever talented remains so for eternity?

Yes simply as that. You are born with talent and you die with the same talent it does not get bigger or smaller only other things are changing. In the top level of competition as F1 racing is talent of the driver is an obscure thing.

I think many people forget that Nico is a very good driver himself

If that were true then top sportsmen would never retire. Like it or not as you get older you do get slower, your reactions do diminish, you don't perform at the same level as when you were younger. It's a fact of life that time catches up with you, and three years out of racing won't help the situation.

Age has nothing to do with talent.

No they don't forget. It work this way they say he is not good driver(Nico), then Michael is beaten by not good driver. Then he is not good driver(rubbish). For me Nico is most consistent driver this year, don't recall any mistake of him. If he was in RBR he could lead by now with 60-70 points. RBR team is let down by their drivers.

Talent is just a skill and often requires practise to maintain. Lack of practise and age does diminish that skill.

Talent is some sort of ability and not a skill. You need a talent or a lot of training to develop a particularly skill. Talent is something that is genetically imprinted into our DNA so you can not loose it.

In that case M Schumacher simply doesn't have the talent to beat Rosberg. Better?

So has MS simply misplaced it at the moment?

You have got to be joking.

Case study for you - Nike.




Indeed. though some seem to have a better head start initially with talent in certain areas/sports.

Totally disagree, overall all drivers have moved forward and kept a fairly even status quo throughout the year. Amazing how one race determines season trends for you, you seem to forget that Kaimu ran into his side and he pitted.

Who says he isn't now developing/testing the car for next year? Wouldn't you if you were in his shoes?

Regarding talent

Mike Tyson said "I knew how to do everything, I saw all the punches coming but I just couldn't get out of the way" (on his defeat to Kevin McBride, June 2005).

The way he hit people, the way he set up punches, the way he hit the speed bag all indicated that the talent was still there, until he met his match.

The talent was there, the ability to exercise it simply wasn't.

I see a similar scenario with Schumacher v Rosberg. In his prime, Schumacher would have demoralised Rosberg in my opinion, now it's the other way around. The demons are eating away at him and he is too stubborn to give up. He needs to be vindicated one more time (with a victory) for all the critics to say "he was good after all"

totally disagree, there is no way the ability to kick a ball or drive a car is part of DNA which is millions of years old. Senna was the greatest wet weather driver of his generation yet he himself admitted he was destroyed in the wet initially but went out every time it rained and practiced like hell until he mastered it. Ability is down to confidence, intelligence, hunger and practice, not DNA.

theres a big difference between boxing and motor racing...

you cant even compare the to tyson was obviously to slow , probably nowhere near as physicaly fit etc and thats what counts in boxing.

driving is different you dont lose the natural feel for the car and the six sense that all great racing drivers have, we all know his reaction times cant have changed either hes been probably the best starter this year when it comes to making places of the grid

I agree. We saw that his reflexes were still there when he almost bottomed out at Eau Rouge in FP1 and when others spun in the qualifying sessions.

I'd say that his instincts have been dulled rather been eroded completely.

You DO lose the physical responses. F1 is a physical sport, and there are very few elite sportsmen who compete beyond their mid-30s. Schumacher is 41.

I don't doubt that Schumacher still has the talents of old, but his body is no longer capable of applying them to the same degree.

There were a few races in the summer where MS was at least on par with Rosberg's pace. Yesterday, apart from the end when he had fresh option tyres, he was .5 to 1.5 secs slower than Nico. The lap is long in Singapore, but that's an still a freaking eternity. In the laps between the 1st safety car period and the MGP pit stops Nico pulled 23 secs away - same car, same fuel load, same tyres. The trend curve has MS falling further back from Nico's pace, not catching up.

There are two things that will be different next year: the MGP 2011 car and the Pirelli tyres. MS has access to neither at the moment. What can he "test" now that could make an iota of difference in 2011? A new drinks delivery system?

It is exactly that expression that tells the whole story - the smile that isn´t a smile. He is not a good actor, rather he looks like a clown, you see the sadness behind the facade. I have been criticized for the clown analogy, but I stay with that analogy, as it is true and symbolic of the story that is Michael Schumacher in 2010.

That he is not a good actor we have seen when he was lying (Monaco 2006, anyone?), so nothing new there.

The only question - how else should he look like?

Should he look downcast, desperate? Then people would immediately start writing him off. "He has given up", they would say, "he is not even believing in himself anymore". He can not look triumphant either, so at least the arrogance that used to be in his expression is gone. Not that he starts to show true humility or kindness as a human being like Trulli, that would not be Michael....

So the best he can do is to try to smile it all away (behavioral psychology states that a smile in such circumstances is usually a sign of insecurity), thus not showing anything negative or desperate and still keeping to a certain degree the smile that constitutes a winner´s psychology. Only that you can see behind that smile, and it looks like a frightened deer expecting the impact. What if 2011 turns out worse or as bad as 2010? How will he save his face then?

This is not to take anything away from his historic record, Michael did not return to the sport to prove his historic record. He returned because he wanted to show that he can still do it now. Maybe the fact that he was basically ousted by Montezemolo in 2006 plays a role in this - Schumacher wants to demonstrate:"I still have what it takes, and I don´t need Ferrari for it!"

So let´s look at the positive version then, the 2011 Mercedes suits Michael´s driving style to a degree that he will beat Nico in it. Then he has proven the point that he still has it and he can do it anywhere, not needing Ferrari for it.

Like I said from the very beginning of his comeback, I´d be happy if he wins one GP, then it is mission accomplished, he is still a winner. If he can really go and mount a championship campaign against the formidable drivers of today? I doubt it.

to have a talent/skill requires practice,and lots of it,DextrahydraNuclueicAcid has nothing to do with skill/talent

You are wrong. Reaction times slow down, everything starts to slow down. Schumacher himself has said it just a few weeks ago. A 41 year old will never be as sharp and alert as a 25 year old.

I doubt in the end Mercedes will view this as romantically as you otherwise MS is still racing when we are eating Soylent Green.

Perhaps, but I still think he needs another full year to see whether he can do it or not. It is clear that Rosberg will beat him black and blue this year in the current car. I'm not going to make any more excuses for the guy anymore so I won't defend him.

However, I still maintain that he needs one more go. I also have a feeling that if Schumacher was fired, Brawn would quickly follow suit willingly.

Wow, Singapore was definitely Schumachers worst race of the season.

Worse than China where he was eaten alive by the likes of Petrov in the rain.

Worse than Hungary where he nearly killed Rubens.

Worse even than Canada where he was just awful after he jumped across the grass with Kubica.

Please, Michael, retire. The way he ploughed into Heidfeld like a mediocre GP2 driver after Nick put some manners on him was embarassing.

Eddie Jordan is actually right, if his name wasn't Schumacher, he'd been sacked.

shall we make a special donation fund to let Michael stay for another season and get roasted yet another season/ ? Am sure many drivers will win from him, even more than in 2010!

I will DONATE!!!

I didn't jump straight in after the race in Singapore because I only got to see a cut down 90 minute highlights package and I wanted to see what everyone else here thought.

That was as comprehensive a pasting that a driver has had from his teammate as I have seen. The first stint was as though they were on different compound tyres Michael was so slow. And he had clear enough air for most of it. I think it should also be obvious that Nico is pretty quick and consistent, how quick remains to be seen but he will not be seriously challenged by a guy as past it and slow as Michael is in 2010. And this is an important factor for Brawn and co in looking at next year, if Nico is to extract every last ounce of speed he needs a better benchmark.

I know, the defenders will now come out and say Michael needs another season , another car, different tyres. If that were the case in his earlier career (when he was considered able to extract speed out of a dog) he would have had no reputation as some kind of miracle driver. Today maybe we have to choose between (a) MS is all washed up, a has-been at 41 or (b) overrated champion who was part of 2 superteams who both managed to gain an "unfair advantage". Benetton were certainly suspect in areas like illegal TC and Ferrari had special political assistance and other stuff.

None of this is to say that MS wasn't an exceptional driver, to me he definitely was, as well as a reason to renew my interest in F1 after the ugly Senna/Prost feud. Some of his drives were right off the top shelf, I don't expect a repeat this year or next. If a return to greatness isn't on the agenda I don't see a good reason to continue with this sad display. Michael needs to be quietly taken aside for a chat.

The fan club display an extraordinary resilience to reality. Some even say they don't find his results particularly disappointing - they are either lying or have extremely low expectations. To have about one third the WDC points as your teammate is embarassing, there are no major factors to mitigate why his results are so poor. Can't we just put this miserable comeback to bed as quickly and quietly as possible?