hardly.

it means they can put the front of the car where-ever they want, more easily... they obviously find this a big advantage.

so there is advantages to driving with oversteer, not just in lap time but in being easier to drive for some drivers.

perhaps it takes more precision and patience to get the front of an understeering car in the right place, so there must be some disadvantage to understeering car too making it harder to drive.

What are you talking about? Yes he was beaten, or more precisely didn't get the needed equipment which we are talking about here. You seem to have run out of argument.
Yes, Glock is that good that is driving for a top team? Which one, is it? Oh, yeah, Virgin. That sums it up.

No measureable difference? Yet again, every qualifying we get the starting order for the race. Surely, it must be that team mates are driving with same speed. Ridiculous.

Simple questions.

Race 1: Driver A is .3 seconds faster than driver B
Race 2: Driver B is .3 seconds faster than driver A

Who's got more talent?

Season 1: Driver A out qualifies driver B 13:6
Season 2: Driver B out qualifies driver A 13:6

Who's got more talent?

Heres one i like

Season 1: Driver A out performs driver B
Season 2: Driver B out performs driver C
Season 3: Driver C out performs driver D
Season 4: Driver D out performs driver A

Who's the most talented driver?

All those above scenarios have happened in one way or another. Yet still people claim to be able to measure driver talent

If your in F1, its because your bloody fast at driving a car. But being fast is one thing, having the character traits and opportunity to be a mega success at that level is something different.

Naah, Has nothing to do with tyres but traffic. I watch all sessions with live timing (laptop which has a slight lag with iphone) and car positions (iphone).

Here is what happened. In Q1 MS always managed to get behind Chandok. It was really strange that chandok was the spoiler for MS on both occasions. In Q2, He managed to get a clean lap. In Q3, On his first flyer, Rosberg was in front of MS but there was a descent space between them. During his outlap in the second flyer, Kobayashi managed to catch MS as Koba was on a flyer. MS had the ability to stay ahead of Koba as he was racing against time (He actually crossed the finish line with 4-5 seconds to spare), but he played a good sport and let Koba by before the final chicane. He then managed to find Koba again on the high speed corner on S1 and lost time there. He would have done a better lap on the second flyer (at least 0.3s better) had he not found koba on S1.

I am actually happy for MS and was particularly looking for this situation (In my opinion, MGP is on par with Ferrari).

Sorry I never could do word problems...A-B+C...

The more I read your posts, the more I think you don't even watch races. Maybe just reading in newspaper for statistics. Funny.
One simple but not only example: If one driver doesn't get the updates and other one does, this whole theory feells apart.

And we can only read from engineers who have data about which driver is talented more than other.

Still his last post was spot on, especially his conclusion, we just think we can spot talent.

I guess one of the upsides to Michael's improvement has been the sudden disappearance of the trolling **** and the loonies that'd made this thread their home. Troll when he's struggling,go hide under a rock when he's getting better-predictable garbage.


Pretty good for MS so far though I was expecting more from Q3. He's been very good in sectors 2 and 3,losing out massively in S1,whatever the reason. Not entirely sure if he backed off slightly to conserve his tyres or hit traffic on his final lap in quali,but the fact that he was the best of the rest behind the Bulls after everyone had done their first set of laps was very encouraging.

Now on to the tyre management issues,still work to be done in this area..

Kimi was slower then Heidfeld when they were teammates

Both drivers in their post quali interviews mentioned a "change" in car handling from Friday. (I am not sure if it applies also from FP3). Could be then combination of tires and heavy fuel load, could be an error in final setup tweaking.

There's no heavy fuel load in Q3, but the car must be ready to perform with full tank the next day. That leads to a compromise in the setup which is not the optimal for a very fast single lap.

I disagree with much of what you've said, but I do happen to agree with your point that most people, from watching trackside or on tv, can't tell the difference between 150 and 152 mph or tell where a driver is making 100ths of secs. There are indeed dozens of stories of a driver being visibly faster somewhere, but there are just as many stories of either a driver who looked fast but was actually slow because he was not ahead of the car or was too sloppy, or of a driver who was so smooth and neat he looked much slower than he was (I recently read such an anecdote about Prost in a Christopher Hilton book).

But, from what I can tell, this discussion started because you were refuting that Mercedes team members, Eddie Irvine, and Damon Hill could make judgments on Schumacher's cornering speed. These, though, are people who either have access to his telemetry and timing and/or have driven with and either lead or followed him through these fast corners. They certainly have the data to make these observations.


Good post.

that's actually the very heart of my theroy. How does one driver getting the parts while their team mate doesn't have any influence on talent? Results yes, but it doesn't make the other driver any less talented even if they now get beat every week.

I noticed you now say we can only measure talent by what engineers say (something that you would read in a paper, not from watching races). Problem is, they don't always agree.

Absolutely untrue. You should get yourself to a race sometime.

Your bascially agreeing to a forumer who thinks Ralf Schumacher and Juan Montoya can do what drivers like Michael Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilon and Kimi have done.
HHF, Ralf, Montoya all won races, Trulli won a race as well, yet it's not like teams the top ones were turned down by Ralf himself, Montoya, HHF, who all challenged for wins and titles, and don't have a seat anymore, teams must be pretty stupid to dump those guys and focus on a Alonso like Briatore did, even to have his teamate crash the car for him to win in China, or Ferrari and Benetton's relationship with Schuey, when you convince a team your gonna be fast because you've proven it even before you enter a team, it's not rocket science to understand that ultimately the team that expects you to do what you've done before, which is be fast, is going to work with you with that in mind, if Scuhmacher's ultimate potential extraction from a car is more, like with Alonso, and it's been proven time and time again, and the answer is in front of you, only sheer sillyness can make you blind to it.





F1 is about tenths now, alot of the very fast drivers are not all too fast drivers, the cars are in the hands of their engineers, only a few drivers can make what is percieved as a too fast driver, the difference on track is tenths, maybe a 1 tenth or 2 tenth, 3 tenths, which can be like 3-4 seconds for a pitstop in a race over many laps, if you got the driver who can extract the extra tenths when the car advantage isn't always the same per track, you ultimately have a back up plan that this driver can do a strategy and maybe outflank as faster car on the day by the smallest of margins, Michael Schumacher has done it in the past many times, not all his wins were straightforward, anyone here who thinks otherwise didn't watch or is just being silly, Alonso is one of these drivers, Hamilton is in my opinon also, and Kimi especially in his mclaren and michelin days was.

Many f1 fans lose the plot with regards to these extra tenths, their not always the same on every track, the driver advantage per track and rules has reduced over the decades and certain tracks, I'm sure if you had Spa 17 times a year, it'll show up the guys who you think are very fast, but not that little bit extra fast, every track, every season, every car, every session, it's the tinest of margins, margins which have made drivers like Ralf, HHF, Truli and Montoya look very good on occassions, but that's it, occassions, Irvine came close to a title in 1999, Rubens impressed the paddock in 1999, so did HHF, Rubens was a rosberg in 1999, in the stewart he impressed, if he had retired then and there, he would of been remembered as a exclusive recluse driver who could of challenged for the title reliability permitting, if Rosberg retires now, he maybe remembered better then in the next few years. Career consistency long term thinking is what f1 is about.


THE VERY FAST DRIVER-can score points consistency, looks good when the too fast driver has a series of DNFs, or even one dnf, the very fast driver is rewarded by a new era of conversation of engines and tyre rules, it's the weaker driver's era to shine and fool the fans into thinking he is as good as anyone who has come before. The technology of f1 cars and the level it is at, these cars are dialed in for alot of drivers to do pretty well at, if you don't have a good day on Saturday, your too fast teamate can't overtake because of the rules of aero most likely, so again, the very fast driver has more opportunities to fool the public into thinking he's the better one, the Ralf or Montoya example.

THE TOO FAST DRIVER-tenths on hand on certain tracks within the current climate of rules, still needed, every tenth counts, that's what it's about, the team knows this, if this driver is more entertaining, tries to overtake like Alonso, Hamilton and Schumacher, loses points due to a crash, ultimately the conversation era will automatically hinder their progess because overtaking their teamate on track iis much difficult. There are too many variables in f1 to be confused about the ultimate driver, the better driver, yence it's very easy to keep these threads going on until your old and dead out of sheer sillyness. The lesser driver claims to do a Alan Prost type conversative drive, he thinks driving within the limits and picking up points, and needing some luck may get him a title, and he could be right, it could, it does happen, but with these conversaton taking of engines and tyres rules, there's a
ARMY LOAD OF ALAN PROST DRONES WHO THINK THEIR PROST WHO ARE DRIVING CONSISTENT BS CARS THAT CAN'T OVERTAKE, COLLECT THEIR POINTS, AND THINK THAT'S IT, I'M THE BEST, DRIVE FAST SLOW ALAN PROST PROFESSOR RULE ERA, MY RIVALS WON'T OVERTAKE ME, STRATEGY WON'T WORK, I'M SAFE, BECAUSE I QUALIFIED WELL AND WELL I MADE THE FIRST CORNER, I'M A HERO OF THE FORUM, THIS AERO TRACK SAVED MY REPUTATION AND WILL KEEP MY EMPLOYED FOR ANOTHER SEASON, .

Prost was a great driver, he just chose to drive within limits sometimes because that's who he was, but many drivers can easily pretend to take this era of f1 for a laugh, it's a open invitation to collect points and not always do the ultimate because it's not always needed, your not going to push your engine because your not going to get overtaked and you have reliability for the next few races to think about, what happened to qualifying engines and 1 race engines, in terms of flat out driving pedal to medal, every lap, fight and fight, it's not open for them to do this for drivers as before, so the too fast driver has to actually become a little like a very fast driver, pick his moments, which ultimately makes him look not that different, because this era of f1 probabley doesn't encouage hamilton, alonso and schumacher's attacking driverings as much as in the past, Jenson Button up front, tyre choice made, tyres which reward soft genttle icecream bs pussyfoot maximisation driving, where as the guy like Hamilton driving race of his life has to put up with conversative tyres, engines and overtaking difficulities to catch his teamate up front driving like a pg disney film, it's smart strategy I'm smooth Jenson Button driving saved by tyre calls, position on track and being a very fast driver, I rate Button, but again the rules hindered Hamilton to fight him, I'm sure had some of these races had been done many years ago, the driver up front wouldn't be in such a safe position.

Bascially the current rules make everything which was previously difficult to see differences between drivers even more difficult, the heroes of f1, the Hamilton, the Alonso, the Schumachers, the fighters, the true gladiators, carrying on the Senna that would of been proud of me racing, are having their most difficult era of f1 rules, I truely believe that, because if you look at these forums, there are still people with no clue with what differences these guys make, maybe if Ralf Schumacher came back, we'll be cheering him on and wonder why a f1 team hasn't hooked him up with a drive, because he's capable of f1 wins, but does he have the extra tenths...the reason most likely why he hasn't come back, because maybe his brother, Hamilton, Alonso , Kubica, Vettel have a few more tenths then him.....

Anyone care to explain me then why some teams employ talent finders?

Reading here suggests they're useless. How preposterous are those guys in F1 anyway? When MS entered F1, many knew there had a great talent entered the sport, but all he did he qualified 7th and didn't get that far in his first race. Either they're presumptous ( after all Eddie Jordan didn't go around in the paddock handing out telemetry readings), or they know what to look out for.

Or Kimi, look at his single racer experience, before he came into F1.

Knowing if a driver will be good in F1 and is not just filling the ranks is a talent too. Some have it, others not. Quite frankly we should hear from successful talent finders, how they observe and come to their conclusions.

I will agree that 99% of people watching a race car go around a corner won't be able to tell the difference between a couple of kphs, but there are those with trained eyes that can spot that difference consistently. For a few years I competed in various Skip Barber race series from Formula Dodge to the Barber pro series. During every session, there would be a driver coach posted at just about every corner. Those guys would constantly amaze me with their ability to tell if you were braking a few feet to early, applying correct brake pressure, turning in at the correct moment, or whether you were rolling the maximum speed through a corner down to just 1-2mph difference. I was never able to do this myself and I probably watched over 100 races, from close viewpoint, during this time. I think they were able to do this because whenever they watched, they were always in a critique mindset, their only intention being to tell whether someone was going fast through a particular corner.

You are also incorrect in your assumption that all drivers in F1 are pretty much capable of doing the same laptimes as one-another. Take sim-racing for example. All around the world there are tens of thousands of people who spend hours a day behind their pc screen and their logitech g25 wheel and pedal set. Among all of them, there are about 20 guys who are really frickin fast that compete with each-other in various series. They all have EXACTLY the same equipment with simulated cars that have identical engines, tires, suspension components, etc. They all have years of experience and tens of thousands of laps under their belts. They have the luxury of turning on their computer to drive exactly the same car, in identical conditions, that they drove the day before. The ultimate tool in eliminating variables to measure personal performance. If I sit down to play GTR2 and I am a tenth of a second slower than I was yesterday, I know that it's because I'm not driving as fast. No ifs or buts.

Now, getting back to the fastest 20 guys. Do they all run similar lap times? Well, yes, within a few tenths from the top of the time sheets to the bottom. But what you will also find, amongst these 20 best sim-drivers in the world, that there is 1 guy who consistently whips the asses of the other 19. Granted, the drivers may set their cars up to their liking. And I suppose you could argue, if you're real wanker, that the only reason that guy wins is because he's better at setting the car up. But you'd be wrong. Because if you bring all of those guys' 20 setups back to baseline, so their cars are identical, guess what? That one guy will continue to whip the asses of the other 19. Why? Because he's BETTER. Holy shit! What a concept! Even amongst the best 20 human beings in the world there are still differences between them. Why? Because sim-racing is HARD. To extract those last hundreths your timing and feel for the car must be impeccable. There is no such thing as a perfect lap. There is always more, and when you're talking about these 20 guys and a few hundreths, you're talking about a lot of time. If you watch the on-boards of these guys, and you have a lot of experience, you can begin to tell why one is faster than another. The fastest guy can brake just a hair later, because when he gets down to the corner, his control and feel for the car is just a tiny bit better, so he can carry a tiny bit more speed, and keep the car tidier with his slightly more precise hand movements on the wheel. All to gain only a hundreth or so per corner than the next guy.

Like everything else in this world, whether it's billiards, basketball, baseball, cup stacking, rochambeau, skeet-shooting, fishing, jacking off, texting, blabbing your big mouth, or pissing your name in the snow, there is always one guy who is the best at it.

Having broken a few world records in the sim-racing world myself as well as racing some now current F1 WDCs back in the day for real when I was younger I can say you really can't compare the two.

There are massive differences in equipment in the sim racing world. Take LFS for example. I've seen one guy race with a keyboard and mouse on a low spec PC against guys with full motion sims on top spec PCs. In terms of equipment sim racing can be MASSIVELY different. In fact using a mouse allowed for better counter-steering reactions.

Yes you will get your odd freakoid on a sim who will just hook it up but it's only through crazy hours of practise that the 99% of sim racers can't be arseholed to put in.

Sim-racing is a valid training tool, but it#s pointless comparing reality to sim racing. It's a whole different ball game in terms of competition.

Oh come on man. No one is using a mouse-keyboard anymore with any kind of success. All of the best guys have very fast pcs capable of running optimal frame rates. They all have top shelf wheels a pedals. The sims are far more advanced than they used to be so that a wheel / pedal with a a fast pc is essential. ALL of the top guys spend a shitload of hours behind their screens, so much so that experience is no longer the limiting factor as to how fast they can go. All of the top guys have reached their peak. A thousand more laps isn't going to make them any quicker.

Besides, you have missed the point of my post, which was to point out that even amongst the best people, at the activity of your choosing, there is always the creme de la creme.

No ones arguing that all drivers are equal in every way. They have different levels of motivation, self confidence, experience, driving styles, etc. But its fullish to claim that one can measure a drivers talent, and at the same time claim that there may be less then a tenth of a second in it over a lap. Exactly how can you know that the tenth comes from raw talent, and not just one driver,

liking the car better?
or
liking the track?
or
Getting a better set up?
or
having a better working relationship with the team?
or
being better motivated that race?
or
having higher confidence?

or a hundred other things that could make that tenth of a second disappear in a click of a finger.

How can anyone be so bloody cocksure that one driver has more natural talent then another? Exactly what measurement do you use?

That the driver looks fast? Meaningless, as looking fast has never meant faster lap times.

That the driver has more success? Even more meaningless, knowing that car performance is the biggest contributer to a drivers record book.

Again, exactly what measurement do you use to evaluate a F1 drivers raw talent at driving a car, from either the side of the track, or from in front of the TV?

There must be a usable framework that enables people to spot a driving being a tenth of a second faster than the next guy due to talent (even if their overall lap time is slower )

Well now you're just being impossible. Your argument has changed from "All F1 drivers can drive the same lap times" to "You can't tell exactly what makes a driver go fast or quantify his level of raw talent". Well, no, you can't tell exactly why one driver can drive faster than another. But it seems that you concede that some drivers do actually drive faster than others at the top level of the sport, so I'm just gonna go ahead smoke a victory cigarette

Where did I say that? Doesn't use " unless its an actual quote. What I did say is,

"I would say there is no measurable difference between almost any of the F1 drivers."

I should also add that I said this,

However, equal in their ability to win races and championships? no way. But that comes down to different skills. Ability to work, inspire, and motivate a team. Personal commitment, and work ethic. Confidence, motivation, the ability to handle pressure and be consistent even when things get hard. I would say that the character of the driver has more to do with results than just raw talent.

So how exactly have I changed my argument?

your point isnt even relevant...its not about their respective advantages/disadv....ofcourse while the oversteery car threatens to slip out from the rear,it also provides the driver with a planted end that allows him to take any line he wants..similarly the understeery guy while has to deal with a non responsive front,also has the luxury of rear stability.

that however is not what i was highlighting..its a fact that controlling an oversteery car throughout a race track requires more skill....simply because the car is much more unstable than a neutral/US car...and it definitely has its rewards..its inevitably the faster route across a track when performed with percision..

Ok fine, so you have 2 independent arguments. I agree with the second. As far as measuring the difference in laptime you can use this thing called a stopwatch. You take the faster driver's laptime, and subtract the slower driver's time to get the difference.

Michael Schumacher had won his 75th race in Spanish GP 6 years ago at this very day.

The interview with Michael Schumacher (41) after the qualification in Barcelona.
BILD am Sonntag:



http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...er-abstand.html

This sounds a little like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which roughly says that you cannot exactly measure at the same time the speed and the position of a particle. This means in one way that there are limitations in a researcher's ability to measure particular quantities of a system, but there is no certainty that with perfect instruments and methodology you couldn't do it.

You argument is that apparently most of top F1 drivers are equally driving skilled and that some "mental" factors make the difference. IMO that's not true. Though they can't be accurately measured, there should be "physical" differences in their skills, subtle, but real. Probably measurable with "perfect" telemetry or under special conditions (like rainy races).
What I agree is that those differences could not be decisive when facing a race or a championship, and guys like Schummi himself or Alonso or Prost have based their success on those mental abilites, outstanding in all of them

Top Post

There isnt a HUGE difference between say a Michael Schumacher and say a guy like HH Fretzen when it comes to pace over a corner, or being able to lap within the optimum time when both have a car setup for their preferences.

What separates these guys (MS,Senna, Prost, Alonso) from the rest is their fortitude to push just the extra little bit, to put in just the little extra effort in getting their car setup right, or spending a few extra hours after each race in debriefs.

Just having loads of talent is never a guarantee for success. The difference between a Michael Schumacher and a Kimi Raikkonen is just that : Motivation, and will to work harder at their game to ensure they stay at the top.

You didn't spend time to read previous posts? It was Kimi's first year with zero experience and we are talking about suitability of car to driver.
And also in the second half the Sauber was all against Kimi because of signing for McLaren.

But, you are using results for you reference.
Still, you should know that there are various factors in deciding who wins in which race.
Talent is one thing, the results other.

The point is, drivers aren't equal just like their talents aren't equal.

Beautiful post. Absolutely.

Not in real motorsport it isn't like that! Not by a long way!

There is where I think the confusion is coming in . I'm not using the results as a reference. Thats the point. A driver winning ten races isn't necessarily any more talented than the driver who won just one. MS would not be any more talented if he won ten championships, or any less if never won a single one. His talent is what it is. The results stem from the talent, not the other way around.

Button is no more talented now then what he was at the end of 08. But his results are better. If Glock made it to the line in front of Lewis in 08, Massa would be no more talented if he won the championship and Lewis no less talented because he didn't. The results gives no indication who is the most talented driver, as there are too many other factors that come into play.

Again, I'm not saying all drivers are equal in talent, but that it is imposable for us to measure who is more talented. This is because there simply is not a big enough difference between drivers talent to guarantee that the more talented driver will perform better. One change to the car handling and the less talented driver will perform better than the more talented driver. Raw driving talent will not be the deciding factor in results at this level as it is far to close between most of the drivers.

Forget about Trulli train, Schumacher train is in town!

So mclarens upgrade suited lewham. Ferrarisalonso. Red bullls webber. All the drivers who were behind ;)

Great defensive drive by Schumi

It has crossed my mind too, but then I recalled JB's smirk on his face when he was asked if it is easy to overtake MS. MS made my day.

Great overtaking from Michael on Button and defensive driving till the end of the race.

Can I just say that I think this is possibly one of the least well-thought out series of 'arguments' I have had the 'pleasure' of viewing on any F1 forum I have seen. To use Renault having Piquet deliberately crash into a wall in order to give his teammate a leg-up as in some way evidence for the superiority of Alonso is mind-bogglingly obtuse. Likewise this strange 'army' of 'Prost-clones' who are diminishing the opportunities of the "gladiators"...... what utter hogwash.

Excellent racecraft,as I said on the comments thread. KNew he could handle Button or Massa easily,but doing this for 20 odd laps was lovely. He must've enjoyed it immensely!

LOTS more work to be done,busy time ahead.

Hah,same here!

This was a bad weekend for Merc, but a good one for MS. Nice overtake and good defensive driving.

On the negative side, neither Rosberg nor MS will fight for the WDC unless Merc can significantly improve race pace.

He was struggling with that car. anyways good job.

schumi cant be happy anyway, the car is clearly slower, especially on the straight so youll never pass anyone.

Have you read Button is upset with MS over his pass. If you ask me Button needs to learn how to race. Stupid complaining about it i saw nothing wrong with it. Button is sore looser.

Button should not be sleeping when coming out of the pits. Lame comments.

Yes, that Shumi-Spec Mercedes is a bit of a dog.

One thing which probably helped him to be one gear higher was that Ferrari and Jordan were only teams to have seven-speed gearbox in 1997. Also that was very goot tactic by Michael - he had spare car set up for wet and decided 20 minutes before the start to go with that.