The tyres were found to have wear marks outside of the allowable tread dimensions but the defense for this was that the side of the tyres were being worn by contact with the kerbs, that's a degradation issue. I haven't heard anything about the tyres getting wider at speed. In fac,t as centrifugal force increases the diameter of the tyre at speed it would surely, if anything, peel the edges of the tyre up off the road and make the contact patch narrower.

Dupasquier: "Absolutely, oh yes, absolutely. And we would have told him in response that ************** this part of the tyre is not in constant and permanent contact with the ground********************, so it's not the tread."

Read this part again and again. He is admitting he was cheating.
Would it be ok if someone came with an engine design which in the corners use two extra cylinders?
This is the same thing.

I accept that Tyregate has a little relevance to the thread but, once again, the thread topic is this;

This is not a thread about the technicalities of the issue.

Unless members are going to get back on topic and illustrate the relevancy to the topic, this thread WILL be closed.

You can´t take out of Michael Schumacher the cornering technique and its effect on the rear tyres - it´s always been there, and in some years like 2005 and 2010 the regs did not favour Michael´s driving style and exposed the effect of his cornering technique on the rear tyres, whereas in the majority of the years the regs suited Michael´s driving style perfectly.

So we cannot isolate 2010, as Michael is still Michael and his driving style is still his driving style. He cannot just out of the blue adopt a totally different driving style overnight. Still, 2010 so far proves a point.

As I understood the OP, we shall check back during the current season how the cornering style of Michael plays out. That means, this point might be further proved or, when Michael/Mercedes turns it around, we shall see that he is indeed a driver of impeccable standards, even so far as managing to adapt his driving style at the mature age of 41.



Quite cryptic, this last sentence about "being ready for conversion", let´s see who gets converted! Usually people just want to see their own opinions supported and can get quite peeved when this is not happening. While I am not interested in converting anyone, so far those who have the picture of the MS of the past in their brains were not highly appreciative of being "converted", even if evidence in 2010 speaks a clear language.

So lets "check back on Michael" during the season and see were the trend goes...

I'll say right up front that I was never a big Schumacher fan. I didn't like his sporting ethics, nor his attitude. However, he is far from finished and past it. In fact, I believe he is doing as well as he could be. The reason he is struggling - relatively - is exactly the same reason he did so well in the past: Preparation, preparation, preparation. There is no magic to it, simply a lot of hard work, done the right way. I suspect some parts of the 2010 F1 picture have taken him by surprise. Easily done when you are seven times wdc.

He has had three years away. In that time, testing has been cut dramatically. The aerodynamic, tyre, and mechanical characteristics of the cars are different. The only way to get the understanding of these cars - with this configuration - is to get the hours in. Schumacher's discipline and precision are legendary, and he will know precisely where he is going wrong. He simply does not have the hours in the car to find the improvement, so he is having to do it in the races.

What Schumacher needs to achieve is a leap of progress in understanding the issues slowing him down. Both Brawn and Schumacher have a history of 'finding tenths'. Look at the 1995 and 1997 seasons. A tremendous effort went into eeking out a little time everywhere, both in car and driver. He will need to do all of this again, but without the advantage of being able to test the hell out of it. There's no doubting his innate speed - it is still there - but you could see in Shanghai that he does not understand the behaviour of the tyres because he has not had time to learn. He ripped the hell out of his inters because he didn't have the experience of them to know that you can't do that anymore. One part of the story I'd like to know is how much education Schumacher has undertaken. Back in the day he would have been bending the engineer's ear and knowing all of this stuff in advance, and I do wonder if he thought it might be a little easier this time.

I never thought I'd catch myself saying it, but I look forward to him being more competitive.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83319

Hardly unexpected I suppose though.

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Berger-...negativity.html

Something what we aren't lacking is a spectrum of differing, and frequently contradictory views not only who Schumacher is, but where he is going. Over the years if I have learned anything as his fan, than it is to be patient, and remaining still to let him work, and suprise me every time. Only when he will say "I am done in here", then we will know he is done, and not any time sooner.

Yes I have read the interview. What's more, I understood what it did and did not say.

Rather than ignoring anything inconvenient and being rude, I took note of the phrase "before Hungary".

And also, in any case, I take note of
"The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres
Dupasquier: "Yes."
BG: And you're telling me they don't do it
Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins..."
BG: Somebody? Ferrari
Dupasquier: "Yeah, yeah. Sure."

And so irrespective of the actual tyres, we see how Michael's team used its excessive influence to get the Michelin teams unfairly hindered by the FIA. Ross Brawn in action in fact, Schumi's long-standing aide in many questionable advantages.

discredit the Michelins?
nobody could do a far better job than they did 2 years later in USA, so all of the conspiracy failed.

you still ignore that JPM said there was no real difference at monza....
in indianapolis it rained and jpm got a penalty for ramming rubens so it was game over for williams
kimi's title dream was kept alive by luck in suzuka's qualy, but few remember that

1. I am not being rude - You will see he clearly talks about 2003 and how they DID NOT CHANGE TYRES.
2. I agree WITH YOU re: them trying to hinder Michelin - you don't think all teams try to hinder other teams!!
3. Again - start a separate thread

We'll see how MS gets on with the better balanced lwb car this weekend, on the same tyres as everybody else . I' was reminded I'd also forgotten the little controversy in 2003 about Bridgestone giving him a softer compound rear than front, and the FIA having a very quiet word about it; one little thing after another in those days...

Anyway it's his chance to show he can win on a level playing field, age apart.

let's see

I reckon your boy Lewham is the next MS - fast, agressive, controversial, gets away with things others don't....

It's like when yoiu read about MS - if you looked back years before, you'd read the same stuff about Senna. In a few years time we'll do the same with Lewis...there's always going to b e amegastar that gets away with more than others.

He is not the Michael Schumacher. Let's drop that comparasion....

He is better than Schumacher.. ....It's true!

LOL anyway.. I think the roads only going to get tougher for The shoemaker now, because not only his car but Rosberg's car is going to get upgraded too.

Good post, well put.

I agree with much of that, and even if it's only a partial explanation, it is very plausible indeed. It may be though that this year's formula and Mercedes car do not suit his style, and he will be playing catchup most of the year, regardless of his understanding of how to maximize the car's performance. But no-one can say that he is doing a bad job, in light of the fact that nobody really understands what his problems stem from. I suspect that once his performance improves, he will be able to confirm his own theories on the matter, and then we will get a more satisfactory explanation.

Cooper

Well Michael has one big weakness compared to Lewis - he wants to win. And he always has defined that too narrowly so that he is willing to win in an unsporting way. Lewis wants 'to be the best', and that crucial difference will always save him from Schumi's kind of disrepute.

There are a lot of other parallels though, I agree.

someone posted a funny shot on our facebook-page (note: not owned, influenced or in any way supported by Schuberth ;-)

http://www.facebook.com/SchuberthHelmets



;-)

Okay thats outright creepy. Really. He isnt a paragon of virtue you know, its alright to see weakness in your hero.

Yeah sure, pretend I said something extreme then argue against it.

I seriously can not believe the niavety in posts where people believe that MS/Brawn - *insert name whoever this week's target is - are the only ones who try to get every advantage they can.

It has been going on since motor racing began and teams have been "quietly spoken too" since motor racing began.

When Minardi 'take advantage' noone cares at that end but when FerLaren and McRarri do it it's headlines.

Harden up you wooses and certainly don't go near a NASCAR pit with your high and mighties .

NASCAR

Well around here people get more credit for racing within the rules, than otherwise

I have to agree on that. I see more parallels between Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton than between Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton.
Although, to be the best, you need to win....

So in a sense, Michael's theory has no inherent flaws (other than....we know), and his winning record shows that.

Excellent!

I wonder if Michael would give up say 2 of his wdc's in exchange for a more sporting reputation? 'Cos for sure people don't rate him 2.3x as good as Senna...

I somehow doubt it as he is a collector of trophies IMO. You have to hand it to him to be able to keep the passion going for such a long time. Unlike most champions he never woke up one day and said "I have nothing left to prove to anyone including myself". That's my perspective, of course he had to exceptional to achieve what he did even if he wasn't necessarily the very fastest for raw pace - it's about winning though surely.

Undersquare

Give lewham a few more years.
I don't think he's the clean driver u think he is
he's made a few controversial moves.
He's also a proven liar all to gain an unfair advantage
I actually really liked him in year 1 but I think his success went to his head. I turned right off him after he made his monkey comments about backmarkers. He's an extremely talented driver though

+1

That´s the greatest achievement of Michael Schumacher. He never gave up (to date).
Even in 2006 his retirement was basically not of his chosing, he was being retired by Luca di Montezemolo.

Possibly the WDC 2007 would have gone his way as well, plus 2008.
Having witnessed these two years from the box surely must have driven Michael crazy inwardly.
He could have raked up 9 WDCs by now.

Nonetheless, under current regs I see his chances slim. Especially, as Rosberg is always driving the same car. What a prestige victory for Nico so far!

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp...66758&FS=F1

If it were still the Mosley era, that could be seen as a thinly veiled threat to the rest of the world.
So I hope Jean Todt will remain impartial and not have a hand in changing the regs in favour of his old friend MS.

What we have seen so far from Jean Todt has impressed me, not a foot wrong so far.

Well the 'monkeys at the back' comment was a little joke about his suprise situation in F1, made on tv in Monaco when he arrived there leading the championship after his fourth ever GP.

It was a touch of modesty in fact, but without the tv picture it was reported as something quite different. I do agree it would have been a dreadful arrogance if he'd meant it seriously.

However in general when this is explained his detractors never change their mind about him.

Just as they never accept that Ryan ran liegate and always say "proven" liar as though that makes a difference.

Personally I think it was far worse that Schumi never admitted his cheats or apologised for them.

the problem you're having is that you're talking out of your a$$. your comment about wanting to win vs wanting to be the best makes absolutely no sense. rest assured, anyone on the grid wants to win at any cost, it's that sort of single-mindedness that you need to even reach that level of motorsport.

I'm not having a problem . I would have a problem if were trying to claim all the drivers have the same degree of ruthlessness.

And I'd have all kinds of problems I expect if I couldn't see the difference between success in a sport and cheating your way to a win. Suppose there were a drug, and Driver X used it to win, what would you think?

Well I suppose if it were Schumi it would all be OK and you'd be claiming they all take them

You are fully aware that Michael has never compared himself to anybody. One of his motto's is that "You must always strive to be the best, but you must never think you are". Your boy Hamilton has already broken that motto with his little quip about nobody passes him.....

Thought that was JYS tbh. Not that it matters how many mottos Schumi's had.

Hammy has a long long way to go to be compared to Michael, he's 16 years younger, my point is that some Schumifans' attempts to excuse his unporting ethics by saying Lewis is the same are wrong. Fundamentally wrong, because their goals are that crucial bit different.

Not a Hamilton thread. Please ensure it stays relevant.

the point you're making now is absolutely valid, i was just referring to your statement of wanting to win vs wanting to be the best.

i don't get you, though. if you are looking for honest, clean sport, why on earth are you into formula 1? there will never be a level playing field in this sport.

besides, your notion of schumacher cheating his way into 7 world titles while your preferred driver is stuck where he is because of his honesty is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

I don't think Schumi cheated his way to 7 titles. The 1994 one, yes. F3, yes. The others are just a bit tainted by the other goings on perhaps, not only by MS himself but by those around him and Max. Even thought it's formula1 there are still limits, and we all respect clean racing more than dirty racing.

The point about the goals is that just aiming 'to win' is a very narrow goal, and can be achieved by all sorts of means. Somebody "won" Indy 05. And because of his behaviour it's clear Michael did set out merely 'to win' even at the expense of his reputation.

For many or even most of us, he'd have been a greater figure and 'more successful' if he'd won less but in a more sporting way.

If he'd honoured his agreement with Jordan, just for starters.

Yeah right. That was the one title that Schumacher deserved more than any other. If the british FIA hadn't cheated the crap out of that season Schumi would have won even faster than 2004.

1994 was the year in which the Benetton, despite the convoluted menu selection, was found to have traction control/launch control software still active in the car. They also removed filters in the refuelling system.

i think to many here on this forum he'd be a greater figure with a british passport.
nobody likes a kraut in a winning mood, eh.

Said it like it is.

I can easily tell that many of the so called Senna worshippers have never seen him race live at all. Senna was atleast as big a cheat as Schumacher. Whats more Schumi never once abandoned or threatened his team.

Its a pretty clear case of hypocrisy if you ask me

like jenson with williams you mean?
oops

What year do you mean?

Which they never actually proved was used.

Perhaps not. There were rumours from Aida that year that Benetton were using traction control (and Ferrari, after Larini let it slip in a pc. Mclaren got done using a fully-automatic upshift, if memory serves). Likewise, Tom Walkinshaw was kicked sideways to Ligier for the next year (seen speculatively as a sacrificial scalp), and the non-compliant fuel rig most certainly was used.

Schumacher did a sterling job that year but in my opinion there was was some distinct rule-bending going on at the team. Pat Symonds denies this repeatedly, but look what he went on to do...

Abject cop-out .