Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.

If you´d have the kindness to study the post I made earlier on the same topic: herein lies part of the problem and part of the answer.



Being an "amateur kart racer" myself I know very well about these controlled slides.
And F1 is a different category of racing vehicles, as you might have noticed.

Schumacher the serial winner started in 1994, how many wins did he have before? Two, to be exact.

When the regs changed in 1994 to have refuelling and two, three or four stints in a race, Michael became the force we know.
Notice the fact, that the more stints, the better Michael would do. Ross Brawn knew this very well, as you can see from historical GP´s when Ross devised a multiple stint strategy and Michael excelled.

MS is the undoubted master in bringing the hammer down. Stellar speed in short stints.

Like in kart races, he likes to throw his car around and has, consequently, tyre issues in an F1 car that has to go for 1 1/2 hours on the same fuel load. As long as the regs permitted multiple stints on low fuel loads (which refuelling provided) Schumacher could play his strengths. The tyres would be changed within due time, plus the lower average fuel load helped additionally keeping the tyres in better shape.

Now that he has to drive the race with a much higher average heavy fuel load, we see Michael debunked. His driving style, which is the perfect kart style and the perfect style for shorter stints in F1 races, is his undoing. He is still a very good driver, as he was in 1992 and 1993, but not that special that he appeared to be from 1994 - 2006.

He knows it himself.

You can see it in Michael´s body language, in his looks, in his resignation. The magic is gone. It will be the stroke of genius if they can provide a car for Michael that can attenuate the negative effects of his driving style on the tyres and play to his strengths at the same time.

Were it not for the regulations from 1994 - 2009, we would maybe have seen a very different shape of F1, with less WDC´s for Michael (say 2000 and 2003 would have been highly questionable).

Moss is not in any way as vastly overrated as Schumacher.

Since you put it so patronisingly, it would be rude of me not to.

Nope, still contradictory.

How does he know Rosberg is top class if Schumacher has lost the competitive drive? I mean, how much is that worth? Which came first, the competitive teammate or the lack of drive?

Do not compare the Schumacher of 2006 with the 2010 version of Schumacher.

2006 was like vintage Schu compared to 2010, but in reality, that's not true. Vintage Schumacher is 1998-2000, when the car wasn't as fast as McLaren.
People need to lower their standards of Schu. I have no doubt Schu will show some old brilliance in one form, but to mantain it like he did in 2000 is too tough.

It's too long a gap until Spain to wait for a new Schumacher practice session, something none of us really thought could happen again last year.

Doing, great, doing bad, doing whatever, being retired or not, last decade and this decade in the forums was about him, I've never seen so many contrasting opinions by people who believe in what their saying, it's always going to be crazy in a MS topic, so many critics have come and gone, fans come and gone, I've seen the best unti Schumacher fans provide the best sort of arguements, proper hard core thought out posts to debunk alot of what MS has achiieved, I actually miss some of those old posters, they were very good and entertaining in good light, we still have some entertainment with alot of us here, but in terms of finding true hard core professional unti MS fans, I think they retired quitely along with MS, and I've actually seen some post here and actually understand the problem's MS is having and admire his courage for putting his reputation on the line for a sport which makes up most of his life, yeah the old Schumacher critics actually I used to know quietly let me know they are fans of him now, and they appreciated him more after he retired, but you always have a new breed of fans each year and era who just pale in comparison to the debates I've seen on here for almost 10 years, a long time.

I actually didn't know how much I enjoyed testing when there was no ban, it was a good sort of activity to see the teams and drivers trying parts and still have some belief that in the tests, we may see indications for what is to come, that was the interesting part of testing, now all the teams do improvements behind the scenes and it may or may not work on the track, and it's made some of us perhaps too confident we understand what's really going on Race weekends have become a bizarre mix of unnofficial testing and race, I think for forums, and not just for Schumacher, it's still a new system to get used too, it's amazing just how much the sport has changed, perhaps a little too much really this decade so far. Just when you get used to something, it's change again.





I think alot of other people I would doubt, but how can you doubt a man who's really done it all, and how can you doubt someone who's given up time from his family, money??, he's got loads, Schumacher has a incrediable amount of superstar status, but you never saw him hog the limelight, or on a David Letterman show, with ferrari he had ambition, mission complete, win with ferrari, create ferrari dynasty....mission complete. Mercedes....now there is a team he would of raced with previously, and may have done with Mclaren Mercedes had Ron Dennis not been there, and has admitted so, it's like he said, he's coming full circle, Mercedes coming back at a time when he himself jumped for Massa's seat, not worrying about his reputation or legendary status, gets prepared and misses out due to neck injury, even if he did or didn't do well, I think it's stupid to doubt this man's desire to win given how great he has had it since he retired, anyone who has races like Monza, China and Brazil 2006 at their last races would be happy I think, he won Monza and retired on ferrari soil, even Massa said, what better can you expect, fighting for the title in your last season, especially after 2005 when guys like Moss writ him off like they are doing now, it's seem the real Schumacher, the one who works hard, the one who worked hard previously before Spa 1998 and in brazil 2006 and showed that through his driving, when Michael dedicated himself, when he could work with the car in testing, he was on fire, so now he has to do double the work of preparation in less time on weekends, and suddenly Michael is no more, boo hoo, I think many here lost the plot on who this guy really is in terms of work ethic and determination, whether or not he achieves his goal with a title for mercedes, I think it's incrediabley difficult to doubt his determination to win. Nobody fought he would leave Ferrari and join another team, not even me at some points but many people got proven wrong, Schumacher has a habit of proving people wrong, and some people still don't know him now it seems or are too proud to admit the truth about him for whatever silly motivations they have for posting garbage which then gets copied and pasted through threads for another 10 years on these forums.

What Schumacher is doing, is trying to pull off maybe in the next race, or following races or next year, to be a main player in races and championships, with current young guns, it's what many were wanting after he retired, so I think it's natural 50% here would kick him when's he's trying, and 50% would be patient to see out his effort to get back in the game, that's pretty much what you would expect from a f1 icon and superstar for the likes in which we may never see again, Senna is dead, I miss him to this day, people still talk about him, if he was alive, maybe we'll be kicking him down as well for attempting a comeback and having some poor races as well, but with Schumi, he's alive, but the thing is, he is his own worst critic, he knows if he can't get the job done, he'll walk, so as long as he's trying, the worst thing you could or anyone can possibly do is doubt his determination to improve,

If I or anyone else on this board had his money and his career and left f1 they way he did with races like Brazil, Monza and China as cap off races to a career, and had it made with ferrari as ambassodor and star enjoying success, to give that up, he surprised alot of people, hell he made fans out of his detractors in his first career, I know people who didn't like him, and like him now for his courage , I don't think many appreciate his quest for challenge, it's a addiction, Jean Todt used to say, it's a addiction to him, a drug. People forget it's like a drug to him, what you call lack of determination is the furthest thing away from the character of Schumi you could say in regards to winning a f1 race, apart from Senna, Schumacher wants to win badly, it's why he's back, not to sit and make up numbers.

Isn't that what we do here all day?

Bit of a provocative cover this week for Autosport magazine;
http://www.autosport.com/digital/

Bit of a provocative cover this week for Autosport magazine;
http://www.autosport.com/digital/

"The cover posts a legitimate question and Tony Dodgins's piece looks into what's really been going on with Schuey and the piece analyses his struggles. Far from judging him, the final lines say that it's too early for a final judgement"

MS is the undoubted master in bringing the hammer down. Stellar speed in short stints.

Like in kart races, he likes to throw his car around and has, consequently, tyre issues in an F1 car that has to go for 1 1/2 hours on the same fuel load. As long as the regs permitted multiple stints on low fuel loads (which refuelling provided) Schumacher could play his strengths. The tyres would be changed within due time, plus the lower average fuel load helped additionally keeping the tyres in better shape.

Now that he has to drive the race with a much higher average heavy fuel load, we see Michael debunked. His driving style, which is the perfect kart style and the perfect style for shorter stints in F1 races, is his undoing. He is still a very good driver, as he was in 1992 and 1993, but not that special that he appeared to be from 1994 - 2006.

He knows it himself.

You can see it in Michael´s body language, in his looks, in his resignation. The magic is gone. It will be the stroke of genius if they can provide a car for Michael that can attenuate the negative effects of his driving style on the tyres and play to his strengths at the same time.

Were it not for the regulations from 1994 - 2009, we would maybe have seen a very different shape of F1, with less WDC´s for Michael (say 2000 and 2003 would have been highly questionable).

Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.

that is nothing but pure speculation.nonsense id say.

as ive already said countless times,theres no evidence to show his tyre wear over the years was higher than his other oversteer buddies eg hakkinen for example.

no two driving styles are alike but u cant point out that schumacher's style produced more wear than hakkinen or vice versa.again for the millionth time u cant simply say his rear slides mean his wears them more then other drivers,there are quite a few guys around that use the same rear slide style,a much more controlled version of their karting slides.

i dont remember schumacher coming in (in the refuelling era) with busted tyres everytime.infact his famous inlaps wouldnt have been possible had he had done that kind of wear to his tyres.

one needs to wait until he has a more neutral package which means he doesnt have to go for extreme load distribution to induce oversteer.if he still has wear problems after that,id be the first one to start ranting

so Montoya had (s) amazing car control and preferred an oversteering car however he failed to match kimi in the same car and struggled to adapt with the balance of the mclaren as it was mostly suited to kimi's driving style. What else is new?

. He utilises the rear-wheel slide more than any other driver, which is what makes him faster than his opponents; you accept that sliding the rear wheels "naturally" results in increased rear tyre wear but...., its pure speculation that a driver who utilises rear wheel sliding to greater levels than other drivers will "naturally" have greater rear tyre wear?

Another interesting part of the equation, which he certainly utilised to better effect than other drivers, is the electronic diff.... no longer in use. I wonder if that, also, isn't affecting his ability to get the best from the car.

Actually, there has been evidence.... which I will search for and find. I remember, through the years, various comments made about how hard he was on his rear tyres...

I shall hold you to that.....

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me

i genuinely believe youre being funny on purpose.either that or.....

Back to the topic,while i myself dont agree with Moss's opinion,that doesnt make him any less of the legend that he truly was.he has been openly critical of schumacher for years now and his comments now shouldnt surprise anyone really.i think his reasons for detesting MS soo much are pretty solid too..can anyone possibly imagine a Jimmy clark/fangio emulating the antics of an MS/alonso.not even in a fanboy's wildest dreams,can one possibly claim Clark or Moss wouldve even thought about doing a monaco 06 or singapore 08.

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me

Hey, you just gave away that you weren't around at the beginning of his career when a certain Damon Hill was MS' main rival. It wasn't pretty back then...

quotes please.

What quotes are you looking for exactly? Hill v Schumacher was a media disaster zone. You were either there, or you were not. The only positive aspect was that the Interwebs was in its infancy, so no 20,000 post thread.

As has been pointed out, the more stops the better Schumacher became - something Ross Brawn knew well... Did anybody have tyre wear problems during the refuelling era?

i genuinely believe youre being funny on purpose.either that or.....

Back to the topic,while i myself dont agree with Moss's opinion,that doesnt make him any less of the legend that he truly was.he has been openly critical of schumacher for years now and his comments now shouldnt surprise anyone really.i think his reasons for detesting MS soo much are pretty solid too..can anyone possibly imagine a Jimmy clark/fangio emulating the antics of an MS/alonso.not even in a fanboy's wildest dreams,can one possibly claim Clark or Moss wouldve even thought about doing a monaco 06 or singapore 08.

It is one of the things I find extremely self-serving and arrogant, "Quotes, please"

Being to lazy to look them up for themselves, and at the same time putting the original poster into the position where he has to prove what he says by providing links and quotes for each and everything. Otherwise their whole statement looks unreliable and possibly even invented or at least unfounded.


at the thought of a Schumacher vs Hill thread circa late 1994, mid 1995..... Hilarious!

Scarbsf1's Blog

Mercedes MGP W01 – Spanish update predictions

Even from the cars early days in testing, Mercedes have had problems with the MGP W01 and Ross Brawn himself has been candid with the cars problems. Fundamentally the car has the wrong weight\aero bias, with it being too far to the front. Last year one of Brawns strengths was its extreme forward weight bias, typified by the large slab of ballast in the front splitter, when the wider front slicks rewarded a +49% bias towards the front. This year the tyres changed, the front tyres being 25mm narrower with a 20mm narrower tread, the rear tyres were also stiffened to cope with the heavy fuel loads. Most teams perceived the loss of grip from the rear tyre change would not offset to loss in front end grip from the narrower front tyre. Perhaps Mercedes (nee Brawn) felt the tyres would still favour a high percentage of weight towards the front, indeed the car still sports a significant slab of ballast in the front splitter. At the last race the cars inherent weaknesses were exhibited by Michael Schumacher, who had both understeer and a chronic lack of rear grip, leading to poor traction in the wet and overwork rear tyres in the dry. In Schumacher’s case his driving style tends to favour oversteer, while Rosberg is able to better cope with lack of turn-in and understeer the Bridgestone’s provide. This trait of the Bridgestone front tyres has been present since the shift to a single tyre supply, which has only worsened with the move to slicks and now narrower slicks.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/m...te-predictions/

Hey, you just gave away that you weren't around at the beginning of his career when a certain Damon Hill was MS' main rival. It wasn't pretty back then...

This was supposed to be a thread about Michael Schumacher

Knight of the Legion of Honour
Michael, being presented by French Prime Minister, the highest French award

"Yesterday evening were Corinne and I in Paris, because I was made a Knight of the French Legion of Honour. I am of course very honored to receive this award, and it makes me proud. The ceremony was very moving and solemn, and then we were with some friends still in Paris on the move. "

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y...=auto&tl=en

When Michael left Benetton for Ferrari at the end of 1995, Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi ... found the car they inherited from him virtually undriveable.
Berger: "Everything was geared to suit Michael's way of driving, you see - and a car set up for him was exactly the opposite of what I liked: everything was on the nose - no rear end at all - and for most people it's undriveable like that."

this is all good but the thing is that the same car has Rosberg 2nd in the WDC standings with 50 points.

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:



He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:

QUOTE
When Michael left Benetton for Ferrari at the end of 1995, Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi ... found the car they inherited from him virtually undriveable.
Berger: "Everything was geared to suit Michael's way of driving, you see - and a car set up for him was exactly the opposite of what I liked: everything was on the nose - no rear end at all - and for most people it's undriveable like that."

He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."

I would like to make a general statement regarding this "Quotes, please" practice, not concerning this particular case.

It is one of the things I find extremely self-serving and arrogant, "Quotes, please"

you're right, i did start watching in 95 and sure there was alot of animosity and hostility between the rivals, that kinda stuff can really add some flavour to a season and is quite understandable when there is an intense rivalry.

kicking a man while he's already down however is distasteful and then belittling his achievements shows a nasty agenda, sir SM is supposed to be a gentleman

Thankyou for that, what I've been trying to say - and what many Schumacher fans have spent years extolling as Schumacher's brilliance... that he uses oversteer/rear sliding to a far greater degree than other drivers. And this was perfectly suited to a formula that minimised the need for tyre management through a race - ie the refuelling era....

I'm the opposite, if you ever see anything I write that you don't believe you are welcome to ask for me to back it up as I will for others.

I certainly hope your not infering that you can post whatever you want and don't need to prove it? Oh hang on.....

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me

This was supposed to be a thread about Michael Schumacher

hmmm, ... I recall Schumi mouthing off Alonso openly in the media area about his supposed blocking in qualifying, ... pretty unprofessional, the way he did that, luckily Alonso told him that there of course.

... and so for Wayne Gardner in Moto GP, no one else could ride his bike (and you couldn't shut Mick Doohan up for years complaining about it).

All this proves is whats happening now, drivers have individual styles, cars have changed over 3 years and MS is in a car that wasn't drawn from any of his own foundations so he needs to adapt and thats happening now. It could well be that the chassis this year won't be able to be adapted to his style similar to as it took time to adapt the Honda bike chassis to Doohan's style - and look what happened there. Don't forget that chassis are frozen and a redesign is out of the question.

I still fail to miss any valid point other than people digging their heels in while they can.

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:



He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."

Thankyou for that, what I've been trying to say - and what many Schumacher fans have spent years extolling as Schumacher's brilliance... that he uses oversteer/rear sliding to a far greater degree than other drivers. And this was perfectly suited to a formula that minimised the need for tyre management through a race - ie the refuelling era....