So if making great starts and gaining positions is utter utter utter BS,I wonder what bad starts would be?

generally much slower
of course. in another reality


Rubens has his hands full with Maldonado...

I like the way you neatly sidestep the main point of the post that you replied too.

I was sidestepping to the sidestepping. He clearly said making up spots isn't valid because MS doesn't qualify where he belongs. Well as far as I know many races are won and lost at the start,so nullifying Schumi's great starts thru some "fan formula",well that is BS.

I'm more worried about Bernie giving him an underweight car...

’Sad’ to see ’superman’ Schumacher struggle - Ecclestone

of course Bernie is not allowed to have an opinion on Schumacher's performance

That's not really a very 'honest' argument. For one thing, MS is certainly not 'much slower' on race pace, he's been at least as fast in recent races. For another Rubens is a long way off his best too; the RB who of the last 2-3 years is not the RB who used to blister around Silverstone 10 years ago.

MS is obviously slower, but how much is a very tough call. On raw qualifying pace perhaps as much as 2 seconds compared to his mid twenties, but on race pace I'm inclined to think nearer 1 second, which sounds a lot but for a 43 year old is not neccessarily so bad; it's only around a 1% decline from a pretty high peak after all.

his main problem is the cars are so easy to drive he cant do his tricks with the throttle etc either cos the stupid ECU doesnt keep the enging blowing if u use the throttle under breaking which we keep hearing his race engineer moan about alot in practice sessions, i would find it hard to believe he has lost a full 2 seconds since his twentie it would be intresting to put him in one of his old cars in proper race trim as they were back in the day and see what kind of time he could manage at say marranelo which im assuming hasnt changed since then.

Even 43 years old,the guy is still a tough call for Rosberg on the race,what a driver...
In my point of view,he had lost his qualifying edge, half a second slower than Nico Rosberg,c´mon mate

So now the problem is that the cars are too easy to drive. I honestly cannot believe how desperate the excuses are becoming.

you have made your position quite clear. were you team manager you would not hire michael.

wow

many of his fans might not have either but norbet and ross clearly are huge fans. clearly they also see at times the speed of old. they also see the old guy demonstrating that he remains a racer. lets not forget his big detractors used to say he couldn't overtake - he was just lucky enough to be in the fastest car. well guess what -at 43 he can overtake as good as anyone else on the grid. anyone else remeber a successful overtake at the monaco hairpin? I certainly can't and on the supposed quickest guy around. used to be the day when montoya fans were satisfied with a hail mary pass for a whole season.

I wish he was dominant but it just shows that is not just the car either. he is giving an honest account of himself with the occassional moment of glory. should federer retire? tiger? nadal?

we all watch and whilst the mgic is less common everynow and then its all there. and thank god the likes of agassi kept playing past when they should have retired.

Believe it or not, that is the situation with the current cars.

2 seconds? 1 second? Do you understand that with that kind of speed MS would have taken pole and win in almost all races this season.

Believe it or not, for that notion (even if it were true as you say) to have any meaning in the context, MS would still need to beat Rosberg if he wants to be considered the better driver.

For a superior driver, to be a ahead by a lesser margin in cars that are "easy" could make some sense. But to be beaten doesn't, reagardless how easy the cars are.

Why does he keep crashing them then?

I understand that you're a troll. You might might want to remember that 10 years ago he WAS taking most poles and winning most races. You might also want to note that I said 'as much as' 2 seconds in qualifying and 'nearer' 1 second in race trim. Given that Rosberg is no Senna I fail to see whats laughable about the idea of MS out qualifying him by up to 1 second, on occasion, at his peak, yet he's been outqualified by that kind of margin once or twice this year. I'm sure even you and manage to understand 1+1=2.

not to support Johnrambo who has proven to be a troll but I also think 2 sec is a bit too much. Ok, he may have been 2 sec slower when he made mistakes (big ones) on the laps, but on "qualy pace" he hasn't lost more than half of a second. That's still huge but at least his peak was quite high.

also yes, 10 years ago he was winning and taking poles...but he was also driving the best car (or if not the best something that was 0.1-0.3 max slower).

I don't remember anyone saying he couldn't overtake.

None of those over guys listed are comparable. They all play for themselves, not a team. If they underperform the only thing it affects is their prize money, or if really bad they won't qualify for tournaments. In all teamsports it is rare that a player is kept on once their performance starts to wain and there is very little sentimentality shown. I don't blame them for hiring MS, although I've always believed he has been out of the game too long, but it is sentimentality that is keeping him in the seat.

No, it's the worst possible excuse someone could use.

Schumacher's back is to the wall. He over-compensates, he makes mistakes and we have seen the end results.

In the past, the critics were still there but he had the best car (or near enough) and he was much sharper and he could silence them with the victories.

Those days are gone I'm afraid and the media and critics alike are having a field day.

I'd use "~phobes" to summarize.

There is a solution to your pain - walk away, or watch something or someone else.

Hahahah, what a dumb response. I wasn't criticising your uber-hero. Look at my posts, they're all in the Schumacher threads. I'm probably a bigger fan than you.

However, I'm also a realist. He isn't as good as he used to be and he won't recapture the same glory; not by making silly mistakes, not by failing to beat Rosberg consistently and not in this flawed car designed by a Mickey Mouse team.


Why should I walk away? I'm no glory supporter. Stop being so defensive.


Accept reality.


Be real man.

Find me one post of even his biggest supporter that claims such.

Indeed. I can't begin to imagaine why anyone expects MS 2011 to be as fast as MS 2000, when A) he's 43 years old, B) he was already slowing down by the mid 2000s, C) he's returned from retirement to considerably different cars from those he most excelled in 15 years ago.

The biggest supporters are not the problem; it is the sychophants and the fanboys - some of their excuses can be read on here on virtually every page.

Yes like his detractors wanting him to retire. You know why? Because deep inside they know that "god forbid" he gets a decent car,he'll be on the podium and possibly win. He was a few rain drizzles away in Canada.

People who have followed him for 20 years now can hardly be called fanboys
It's the schumiphobes who spoil the thread seeing a chance to take a bite at him, denying his achievements and neglecting the reality.
Real supporters, and I count myself as such, have a realistic view and simply enjoy his presence. Which BTW, at his age is an achievement by itself.

I guess what rankles with the detractors (I'm one) is that you can't have your cake and eat it too, or to put it another way you can't have any of these:

Schumi is head and shoulders the best we've ever had + he's only lost a tiny bit of speed + Rosberg is a journeyman. Or

Schumi could win in any car + the cars crap now + the cars too easy to drive + the tyres don't suit him. Or

Schumi needs a car that suits him + MGP should design the car aroung Schumi + Rosberg doesn't know how to develop a car. Or

Qualifying doesn't matter + if he wasn't near Petrov he'd have less accidents + he makes great starts and overtakes more than Rosberg.

Too many mutually exclusives.

If he was once the fastest, as most believe, then he has lost a lot of overall performance and it's valid to question whether he is in F1 on merit or lifetime achievement credits. It's also fine for those who have stated, honestly, that they just enjoy watching him regardless of how he does.

It's jealously, plain and simple. No other driver will ever be able to top Michael's lifetime achievements, so the only recourse is to try to deny them.

Great post, and fair point. You're probably the most balanced 'detractor' of a driver that I've ever seen--I didn't realise you didn't like Schumi until now.

And, I am probably bigger fan than both of you.
For the fans- just except what the great man give us.
For others- they know what to do. I just can't write it here.

But the question is : even if he lost speed, what he has now is it enough for him to be on merit in F1? So based on the last 1 and half seasons do you think he deserves to be in F1?

No.

I believe MGP could hire cheaper drivers who would be faster than Schumi and push Rosberg harder.

If i'm proven wrong I will come here with humility but at some point everyone will reach their own point when it's time for him to go. For some it was after 2 or 3 races in 2010, for me it was at the end of 2010, others are still keeping the faith.

Who and why?

And this talk about needing a driver to push Rosberg is either a) nonsense or b) Rosberg is a poor driver.

Michael is accused of having weaker teammates. Did he need to be pushed? Same story for Alonso.

Yes.

From Alonso (stolen from the ALO vs HAM thread) - ""That year was good overall, both Lewis and I learned many things. When you share a team with a top driver you learn to grow together.

"You improve in terms of preparing for a race and even from his driving style, because you share telemetry, so it was a great experience," added Alonso.

I believe if Rosberg felt a greater threat he'd have to up his game again. It's standard sports performance management.

As for who, I'll do you a deal, you name a few who you think would be cheaper and faster than Schumi and i'll reciprocate.

Learning from another driver is completely different than needing another driver so you can perform. So my point still stands : if Rosberg needs a strong teammate to perform at his best then he is a poor driver.

Why would i nominate other drivers? I don't believe there are available drivers that would be better for Merc than Michael.

is massa upping his game since alonso joined? this standard performance management of yours is a bit of a piss take theory.

as for cheaper than schumi..i don't know. did you hear about exposure? he probably sells more merchandise to mercedes (and brings more media exposure) than any of those cheap drivers would

as for his knowledge.....you can't buy that off the shelf

What, you think Alonso learned from Hamilton so he could be worse? It's bog standard performance stuff, I'm not sure it warrants discussion.

A performance level is achieved (personal or absolute i.e. 100m sprint), someone comes along and moves the game on and everyone steps up. Nothing new here.

You have changed the nuance of my question so as not to answer it. I didn't ask for 'available' drivers (assume all drivers are available) because drivers are fungible as witnessed at the end of 2007 (ALO and KOV) and 2009 (KIM and ALO), and what is your definition of better for Merc?

I asked cheaper and faster, which is my definition of better for MGP by the way. Nothing to do with selling caps. In no particular order and first pass;

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta
Kubica (if he regains function)

It's not my theory, it's just normal. You don't think Tiger woods lifted the level of golf, or Sampras tennis, or Bolt sprinting, or Senna f1, or Rossi motoGp, or Ronaldo, or Muhammed Ali, or Bob Beamon. Just use google on something like "i had to raise my game". I'm amazed anyones contesting this.

Regarding Massa, if anything it backs up the theory; a new benchmark arrives, if you can't step up it could ruin you. Someone is always looking to raise the bar, you either go with them or you get left behind.

If it's about selling merchandise then so be it. That is not a success formula for MGP.

They don't need him in the cockpit to buy his knowledge.

First : i just gave you the best counterexample : Schumacher. Weaker teammates and 7 titles.

You still confuse the two parts : performing at one's best and learning.

Rosberg shouldn't need someone else to perform at his best (his best at that moment). And if the idea is that he should learn so as to become a better driver than you think he could learn more from the guys you mentioned than from a 7 times WDC?

For the second part :

Of course i changed the nuance of your question because you don't define faster. Faster over lap lap, faster over a race, someone who scores more points? So i used better driver.

And i'm not interested in a theoretical question on who on the grid is better than Michael.

You said that Merc could hire other drivers. So of course we are talking only about those they could realistically hire.

And from your list (some of the drivers already have contracts for 2012) :
Koba is having quali problems and is still to inexperienced.
Petrov - seriously?
Sutil : very inconsistent. Had plenty of time to show his worth.
Di Resta : too inexperienced. Probably Schumacher replacement anyway.
Kubica : let him heal first.

Merc already have a young driver with 100 GP under his belt. So he should be the future. And why not pair him with an experienced driver from whom he can learn a lot.

First; I'm not in the least confused. One's best is a snapshot in time, only with hindsight will you know which of your bests is the career peak. When Schumi won his first WDC, he was, at that time at his best. He still got better though. It doesn't exclude using others as motivation to improve. In fact I believe Schumi has made it known that Hakkinen spurred him on to greater things. These are competitve animals, intra and/or inter team rivalries are good for them.

Of course he can learn from Michael, plenty. But a competitive threat from a faster team mate would invoke a more visceral response as is well known.

I'm not making this stuff up. At my last employer we had an elite performance adviser who was a world cup winning international coach. He was unequivocal about this stuff. You hire the best you can, then you keep trying to hire better people to bring everyone's level up. Those who aren't performing should be considered, with human kindness, for other roles within the 'team'.

Second; yes fair enough i did say that.

If Michael is the best they can get at the moment then so be it. However;

1. I don't believe he is (for 2012 at least)
2. that's not the same sentiment as our starting point earlier which is Brawn and Haug's stance that Schumi can drive as long as he wants.

And of the drivers mentioned (i'm sure they could buy any of these contracts for 8m Euro:

Koba is having quali problems and is still to inexperienced. - Same as Schumi then, extremely highly regarded, only 5 pts behind in a Sauber!
Petrov - seriously? - Yes, ahead of Schumi in a Renault!
Sutil : very inconsistent. Had plenty of time to show his worth. Beating his team mate, see below.
Di Resta : too inexperienced. Probably Schumacher replacement anyway. - Get him in then, Rosberg is the experienced one now
Kubica : let him heal first. - Of course.

I agree that it doesn't matter who's in the sister car for a driver to push himself so irregardless who's driving the 2nd MGP, Nico should be performing at the top of his game.

Where I do have an issue is with a team that refuses to implement a No. 1 driver or preceived No. 1 driver. Giving equal status to both team mates I believe handicaps the team tremendously. Each driver has his own driving style which could affect the direction and development of a car.

Personally I feel that having a clear No. 1 is the way to go.

Ferrari's dominance during the Schumi No. 1 era. Ferrari regaining now with Fernando No. 1.
McLaren top performance years were during Mika's No. 1. I feel they are bit behind right now having 2 strong drivers with different styles.
BAR behind Button won.
RedBull behind Seb are winning.

When a team tries and cater to 2 No. 1s, they inevitable dont win as it affects design direction of the car, strategy etc. It minimizes their performance.

I think it`s high time Merc decide where they are headed and put full resources in that direction so they don`t waste another year. I`m not convinced that Nico is necessarily that guy.. if MS is thinking of just one more year. If Michael is thinking of 3-4 more year program, I wouldn`t be surprised if Nico moves on to RedBull behind Seb after next season. If MS isn`t in longer term then next season, and if they don`t intended on going after a proven race winner... then better start having Nico be the flagship guy

its complete rubbish... most of the top drivers have had weaker teammates and most #2s never raised any game...

from the last few races we can see schumacher stints in races are much more competitive than rosberg surely this should be enough to make rosberg raise his game if he can , or maybe he enjoys beeing 0.1-0.5 seconds a lap slower than his team mate in races over a whole stint ? hes never going to be considered a top driver by the top teams for aslong as his race pace is rubbish and his racecraft invisible.

even if alonso joined mercedes as nicos teamate it wouldnt make nico raise his game its just a bullshirt argument people use to call for schumachers retirement people like number62 whos only posts in scumacher related threads dating back to the 2010 season are all negative comments that completely ignore any race stint times

I don't really feel the need to continue this in the face of such underwhelming knowledge of sports psychology and indeed human nature. Enjoy;

"Michael Schumacher said he must "raise his game" after Mercedes team-mate Nico Rosberg beat him in Friday practice at the season's opening grand prix.

The German legend, returning to F1 after three years in retirement, was nearly 0.5 seconds slower than Rosberg in both practice sessions in Bahrain.

"That is a bit too much for my standards. I've got to raise my game a bit and I'm sure I'm able to," he said.

"It's not a problem. It's just that for one lap I saw that Nico was four-tenths up and that is a bit too much for my standards. I've got to raise my game a bit and I'm sure I'm able to."

Jenson Button will have to dig deep and raise his game in F1 2010 if he is to successfully get on terms with McLaren-Mercedes team-mate Lewis Hamilton and have a chance of beating his title-winning predecessor over the balance of the campaign, argues the reigning world champion's former team chief Nick Fry.

Lewis Hamilton on Sunday vowed to raise his game after finishing more than half a minute behind his teammate Fernando Alonso in Britain

Valentino Rossi - who currently holds a 30-point lead in this year's championship race - said the emergence of Casey Stoner, Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo had forced him to raise his game.

"It is a great, great motivation for trying to improve," said Rossi.

"And this year it is the same with Lorenzo. He is also my team-mate, with the same bike, so it means more concentration, more time dedicated to try and win. It is difficult, it is bad when you lose, but it is a lot, lot more exciting when you are able to win."

The theory that drivers raise their game depending on their team mate is well established. This is not some new idea that has been made up in the last year.

For example; It was said about NH when RK replaced JV at BMW. It was said about RS when JPM joined Williams, and again about KR when JPM moved to McLaren. it was said about JV when JB joined BAR. And it was even said about MS when RB joined Ferrari.

This is not a new theory. However, whether this theory is a fact is another question. Just because it gets said a lot does not make it true. But it is not a new concept that has been made up to push MS into retirement.

Now, a faster driver being slower than his team mate because his car is too easy to drive... That is a new idea! It is also a theory that will undoubtedly win the race to the bullshit basket before the idea above.

And after so much talk , can somebody explain how they will get something better than 7th(if all other(faster) six car finish)? Because everything else is BS, you know it and team and drivers know it. But, you still talk BS. I hate to say it but, you focus here on non problem!!!! The problem is parked in Brakley now. But, you can go ahead with the nonsense.

It is conceivable that some people see in Schumacher qualities you don't, and take your list as rather laughable proposition.

You find this laughable?

People who are beating Schumacher in worse cars would likely beat him in the same car.