Here are my 5 cents.

The only reason the MS-Merc partnership hasn't worked is Mercedes team itself.

This leads to a very urgent question/theory I have. Please discuss it with me, because I think this is the biggest reason MS looks somehow 'different' from vintage MS. It's all about driving style.

Compare MS driving style fom onboards 2006 vs 2011. I know they are different cars, but that doesn't mean that pusing the throttle together with the brakes is not possible anymore.

2006; MS paces the throttle at a fast pace (like Senna used to) during the corner while braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawzWpJfJPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fpri7gT0aY (from 0:15)

2011; MS brakes for the corner, waits untill he is out, and then hits the throttle. He isn't using his famous driving technique anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y_s9A4EEVE...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=365rO-KSfLk (from 1:08)


Could this be because of a lack of grip on the W02? Please discuss.

And how about this discussion with his egineer: Saying to much oversteer, while MS dissagreeing and saying he still has understeer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkvgN9Lihc...feature=related

He can't blip the throttle because of the highly sophisticated EBD engine maps I would imagine.
It's not just him, we've heard quite a few RE telling their drivers to keep their foot off the throttle while braking.

They didn't have engine maps in 2006?

they didnt have off throttle exhaust blowing? it doesnt start blowing the exhaust if you press the throttle while breaking

That will be banned next year right?

So, next year he can blip the throttle?

If so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the better of Rosberg even in quali.

Is it possible the engine maps are controlled by the standard spec ECU? Which of course is made by a branch of McLaren afaik. It could be that Ferrari had their own specification which suited the "blip" style employed by MS.

Just random musing there.......

Can't be, then there wouldn't be a difference between teams. Right now some have it, some have it partially, some don't. If it was ECU controlled surely everyone would use it?

And here is the delightful pole of the 1998 Japanese GP, absolute vintage.....

I consider 1997-1998 seasons his best non title year. It's hard for me to choose which would be better, '97 or '98 in terms of driving skill and overall.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG_cK-GONls...der&list=UL

Well you can't really compare race (2006) and FP2 (2011) lol

Also about the oversteer...It seems that the car really isn't stable, the steering wheel seems to be so nervous, the handling is so bad...
And I noticed that it was pretty much ok with that in the first race 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSZ-Z5NLXg - that driving is great compared to the last drives in this season...

I probably wouldn't say 1997, for one very obvious reason.

2006 is up there for me, namely because of his drive in Brazil that year.

Michael should announce his retirement at Monza and get on to Ferrari to let him drive at the last race as they aren't likely to be in the championship fight in my opinion, crazy idea!

With Badeor in the 2nd car!

i loved 1998 so many awesome races that year and quite alot of wet ones if i remember right

thats my favorite looking formula one car aswell

1998 was the best non-title season for Schumy,just look at what he did at Hungary,Spa,the guy was doing just great!!

I think the rules (one can debate about this) are not exactly suting Schumacher's strong points, after all, he was a genius at reeling fastest laps when refueling was in....

But, again, its just a point that one can debate on.... But however, in 1991, Schu was quick automatically, so it might not have some merit to it.

Give it a rest. In his prime Michael could drive anything to the limit no matter how bad it handled, and no matter the rules and regulations. Just like Hamilton and Alonso can these days. You can analyse all you want but it's time to accept that at 42 he has simple lost the talent, no need for excuses anymore. One of the best drivers of all time should be able to adapt to any car, that is precisely why they are one of the best drivers of all time, and Michael no longer is.

Let me see what you are writing,

We have this group of drivers, who are best drivers of all times (they can handle anything on four wheels)
Michael had an aptitute to handle everything, thus he was in that group of best drivers of all times
Michael cannot handle everything (now), because he is 42
Michael therefore doesn't belong to the group of best drivers of all times

Question I have is therefore how many drivers in the exclusive club of best drivers of all time was tested at 42 under similar conditions, and pass the test?

Alot of people have lost perspective, 42 years old and a few tenths off the pace, it really isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. He has achieved everything a driver can and will always be one of the F1 legends, nothing can change that.

Could you stay out of this discussion please.

I am trying to discuss the reason why the driving style is not the same anymore. The guys here have been very helpfull on this. And then you come here and make my questions into something they are not to and tell me to give it a rest.

Please guys don't react to his post and lets foccus on the driving style of MS.

So we have EBD engine mapping, what else could it be? And how can it be fixed?

I think he generally has that speed at Brazi/ Monaco/Spa/Suzuka/Spain/Turkey last year especially, if you look at his qualifying despite that mistake at this year's turkey, these are tracks with fast corners, and he's outshoned rosberg at Monaco 2 years in a row, beaten him at Spain, 2 years in a row, was fast at Suzuka/Spa-with f duct issues last year spoiling his qualifying, let Rosberg through at Brazil last year despite being faster to help Nico's strategy, and Brazil does have a combination of medium/slow/fast corners.

I think Michael has done a great job at adapting whatever he needed to do, but one of the problems he has, is qualifying set up is linked to race set up, in a unproductive way for the way he sets up his car for the race, if qualifying was separate, he could tinker with the car for the race, but he can't now, and he makes a comprimise, fast in the race, Nico gets quali right more often, and falls back, while MS moves forward.

I don't know how much MS has lost in slow corners, that was the problem last year, he's improved it this year, but qualifying to the race set up is a hurdle I think only a better mercedes car will solve for him, he needs more set up options, it's the price he pays for being Schumacher, it's something he and the team need to sort out, they didn't have a game plan last year, and this year technically they've missed 6 months on rivals, had the car shown the speed they thought they had in winter testing, we would be be talking about something else.

I think Rosberg and Schumacher have helped each other out, Schumacher needs with the team to have a fast car in qualifying and the race, currently he can't do this often enough, and Nico is the other way around, fast in quali, and trying to hold on to it in the race, and more often falling back, Schumacher is taking more risks to compensenate.

Maybe there is something to his engine maping, which could further be improved, but I think the main issue is, is having a car that's capable of a decent saturday and sunday, with DRS being used more often in quali, I think it's actually just making things just unealistic for sunday, when they can only use it in one area.

I think qualifying has just changed one too many times, and this might not be currently MS's best times with qualifying rules with this current car, but that could change, a better car gives you more set up options to attack podium/win.

When Michael done things like 2 stoppers to other peoples 3 stoppers at Silverstone 2004, he immediately sacificed this qualifying for race pace, but now I think it's something he is almost forced to do given the limitations of the car. I personally think if Schumacher can have strong race pace, then surely a better car will get him up the grid, and DRS/Kiers will solve matters up front, Rosberg is not the same, what works this year for Rosberg, might not work next year, and Schumacher has left Nico off the hook despite being strong for the result, Schumacher's strategy will be great for racing against the big guns like Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel, but right now, 6th./7th place, a different ball game, I don't see other drivers on the grid making the current merc any podium potential.


Rosberg's qualifying pace reminds me of Montoya in 2002, great quali, then falls in the race, while Schumacher in 2002, didn't have the outright advantage in quali, but his race car was fantastic.

Without KERS and DRS maybe Schuey would be in bigger trouble, but if he's got race pace, and has these additions, and a newer car can help find his qualifying/to race set up better then it is now, and lets be clear, rosberg's balance is not great either, either one looks good on saturday/sunday, then other suffers on the opposite day.

Right now this Mercedes has followed a different design pathh, and unless we saw others in these same cars, it would be some sort of clear picture, but redbull/mac/ferrari/their exchaust route has pulled them through, and Merc is 6 months behind, looking for a leap, they need a winter where everything clicks, the structure is there now, this is basically the team MS was expecting when he started, but it's taken 2 years to get a structure, essentially he has been racing in a different type of exhaust formula, and next year things get reset again, and with each change, things can move towards a team/driver. This year is important to close solution gaps and make sure progression don't stop.

SeanValen

From your post
// I think Michael has done a great job at adapting whatever he needed to do, but one of the problems he has, is qualifying set up is linked to race set up, in a unproductive way for the way he sets up his car for the race, if qualifying was separate, he could tinker with the car for the race, but he can't now, and he makes a comprimise, fast in the race, Nico gets quali right more often, and falls back, while MS moves forward. //

This is exactely what happens, Michael is faster than Rosberg in race. Rosberg is totally focusing on qualifying and then lacks in the race. This makes him "look" better than MS. I really not hope Michael Scumacher will quit in the end of 2011. He is a fantastic driver who deserves better than this CRAPPY W02.

Im sorry to say this as a Merceds fan but this team is a compelte JOKE. Cost neutral F1 program!!! The team needs money, new mindset and new staff. NOT a new driver. Michael is on the right way. First focus on race pace then make the car fast in qualifying.

I think the problem is that MGP board wants headlines more than winning the race. They are so desperate to show in qualifying and because of this they will never find a complete package. Take a look at Force India. Focus on race and then make small steps in qualifyling. Oops and they are ahead of MGP...

MGP board must change their mindset and focus on the race more than headlines and qualifying.

Macxtor, if my recollection is correct, you will have Norbert Haug very seldom in the headlines. He believes in results on the track, not empty words; they are trying damn hard, but it is not an easy feat. I also think they do need to strengthen their engineering team, and some step were taken in that direction, despite that I am not sure who Bell is, and what he will bring to the team. Like you, I am too concerned whether they had cut resources beyond what was necessary, while neither Ferrari, McLaren or Red Bull following them; yes, drivers are least of their (current) problem.

Michael hadn´t lost his edge,the thing is that with these thin front tyres he can´t forces the car to oversteer anymore,so that way he can´t get to his edge

Speaking of tires, anyone else believe if Schu had the thick and fat tires on the car, he would be doing better? Even when he raced with slicks in the 1990s, they were still thicker than the current spec.

I don't know and I don't understand why this question matters.

The cars, and tyres are totally different so of course his driving style is different, but that is not the reason he is slow. You are just looking for excuses. If you studied Michaels career, you would know that many of his cars handled very different. The benettons were very oversteery and snappy, while the 1996 and especially 1997 Ferrari's understeered a lot but he was still just as fast because his strength was his ability to adapt, as Prost himself said, so blaming his lack of speed on driving style is complete nonsense.

Schumacher admits eyeing return to retirement :

http://www.f1zone.net/f1press/schumacher-a...etirement/8064/

Explain then why he could do that in 1997 car with even thinner tyres than 2010/2011:

F1tweets, thats old news, his fans are in denail. It would be much better for mercedes at last. He is making a joke of the team. Let him damp off, and break his word again. Old man must leave f1 for the sake of mercedes.

Do not get me wringt, i like his atruggling very very much, he always makreel my personal highlights in the races, but he must keep the little credibility he still has.

In a way i really Hope he will stay Another season, just for the sake of fun, hehehe

1997 front tyres are the same width as 2011...

I'd love to see what Frans'd be doing at his 42th in what's pretty much a dog of a F1 car

I'm still wondering *and editing*, since F1zone picked the issue up... how much sites are going to follow? I really doubt the source after been shown the commitment Schumacher had at the BBC reportage. If anyone else thinks otherwise, I'm listening because I'm about to decide whether to go to Spa for only Friday or the whole weekend

Within context of your post it matters because if you apply the same (your) criteria to all former F1 greats, I suspect no one would come out pure and save, failing your standard, and therefore we would have no greats.

Expectations were high on him, but all in all I think Michael is doing just fine under circumstances he is in.

I agree I doubt that any driver would be great at 42.

Michael is not faster than Rosberg in the races. He has been faster in a few races but since 2010,
Rosberg has been the quicker one in the majority of the races.

Fangio (Born 1911) still had 4 World Championships ('54, '55, '56 & ''57) to win when he was 42

Also, Mario Andretti (Born 1940) won the Indycar Championship when he was 44

50s and 60s are not the same as formula 1 now, the cars are tons faster and there is more g force.

Even then the question is still valid. I have seen top drivers equally fast with V10 and V8, with TC and LC and without it, with Michelins and grooved Bridgestones, with wide slick Bridgestones and thinner Bridgestones and finally with Pirellis. So how can anyone belive that Michael's problem is thin fronts, EBD or whatever else?

QUOTE (mrmusicman @ Aug 8 2011, 12:22)
I agree I doubt that any driver would be great at 42.


QUOTE (bill p @ Aug 8 2011, 12:45)
Fangio (Born 1911) still had 4 World Championships ('54, '55, '56 & ''57) to win when he was 42

Also, Mario Andretti (Born 1940) won the '84 Indycar Championship when he was 44




So, Fangio and Andretti were not great drivers at the age of 42.........................

They were, but the ability of the machinery back then was far less than what it is now (I know Andretti won his F1 championship at 38, but the speed of the sport has advanced a lot since the late 70's). Perhaps this isn't the best analogy, but I think it was a lot easier to be a great fighter pilot at the age of forty during the 40's-60's than it is now, too.

Modern-day F1 is more demanding physically in most cases than it was back in the 50's-70's, but that's probably a discussion for another topic.

I agree entirely with you and your analogy is spot on.

That's extremely true but what was the average age of success in this sport back then?
how many <24 years old winners were there?
how many <20 years old guys were racing or preparing to race?
how many Gs could a car pull trough those tyres?

The difference is that in 1997 he wasn´t 42 years-old

And how many 20-25 year drivers were then in F1? I think drivers then were generally older?

How is age limiting him?

The way it would limit any other 42 year old - only in most drivers cases they would be seconds off the pace they were capable of in their peak rather than the tenths that Michael is. Look what happened to drivers like Damon Hill as he got older, he was seconds off his team mate.

How many other sports are there (where extreme fitness and reactions are required) where a 42 year old could compete at the highest level. I think what he is doing at his age is remarkable, but lets not kid ourselves, he was already losing some speed when he retired.

I'm a huge fan and he's at top of my list of all-time drivers but to suggest he is as quick as he was does his primary career a dis-service. I would give a lot to see just one more podium before he bows out though - unfortunately a victory is too much to hope for.

As to the fact that F1 drivers used to be older, yes they did, but the levels between then and now are imcomparable. Fitness didn't matter, there were not the g-forces to cope with, nor the elctronics to master and ability to do 5 things at once and F1 was very much for the elite few. Finding the best from a talent pool of 100 drivers, doesnt give you the same standards as searching from a talent pool of tens of thousands of aspiring young drivers.

Besides, it used to be untinkable to run a 4 minute mile - things move on. It's like suggesting a 100m sprinter from the 50's could compete against Bolt

So had he lost it or not? Because it seems you also lost it.

Father time waits for nobody.

Look at the great Muhammad Ali, he started slipping when he was 38 years old and look what happened to him. Lennox Lewis started slipping and called it a day (wisely). Mike Tyson lost to people who would have been considered 'bums' in his heyday.

Time stands still for nobody. The brain, impluses and neurological processes slow down and people cannot perform, maintain and execute the same standards as when they were younger.

That said, the fact that he is around the same level as a prime Nico Rosberg is testament to just how great Schumacher is even now. He might not be the fastest around but he can match (more often than not) a guy who is touted to be one of the best out there. That itself is incredible.

Schumacher reminds me of Bernard Hopkins; what he lost in terms of reflexes, he is starting to make up for with ring-smarts, experience and a wise head.

Joke post?

points 190 - 104
podiums 3 - 0
qualis 24 - 6
races 17 - 5

Around the same level .