Exactly. I think most of his teammates preferred an understeering car while he was the opposit and his way was by and large way faster. So his input carried more weight against more experienced scrubs like Brundle and Herbert.

Not really on-topic...

Internet couldn't really help me out but does anyone know if any of Schumacher's children are into motor racing competition? His children would be 14 and 12 about now so maybe they would like to follow in their father's footsteps. Me and a friend were talking about various F1 riders who also had kids that started Formula 1 racing so that got me wondering.

I think his boy does some karting but uses his mom's last name instead of dad's. MS does a very good job of not exposing his kids.

Anyone who believes that if Schumacher had been in a RBR/Mclaren/Ferrari last season and not been in the hunt for not only victories, but the championship, has a lot to learn about F1, I am afraid.

You need the car first and foremost. Mercedes has not delivered. They are still Honda, even though they changed so many things (everything it seems), but they still perform in exactly the same way as Honda did.

What is left to change, no one knows.

FA - Alonso cart - it reads

But isn't this how every elite driver is rated within F1 and relative to others? I mean wouldn't it be fair to say that the true pace of the Ferrari is where Massa puts it and that little bit extra is where Alonso's skill comes into play?

The difference back then of course was that there was a much bigger gap between drivers, the cars and perhaps the skill of the driver was somewhat more important relative to the the machinery compared to today.

You're always going to get mad fans, or should we say 'enthusiastic' fans who believe that Vettel would win the WDC in an HRT but in general most would agree that apart from other elite drivers, Vettel is simply faster, put the majority of the grid in the second Red Bull and they will get soundly beaten. The same was the case in Schumacher's time. Again I suppose the difference would be that today the machinery is a little more dominant and as such there are many drivers that are closer together. Therefore a driver couldn't put a car 1 second ahead of his team mate which was possible in past decades.

agreed and yet the difference across the grid is massive this yr. we have had some cars starting despite not being inside the 107% rule. we have the 4th best car qualifying outside a sec per lap of the pole setter which was unusual during the 90s,2000s as I recall. even the gap from red bull to second best has at times being trending towards a sec/lap

This is self contradictory, if his team mates shared HIS car designed around him, then they never had a fair chance to impress did they? If we look at how badly MS struggled with tyres and handling last year we can say that if he was an unknown driver he would have been labelled as useless and dumped. The ream stuck with him because he was a proven talent. If MS's teammates came in, struggled with a car they didn't like and under performed, they didn't have that luxury, they were simply dumped.



The logic of focusing on the faster driver is fine but you can't say that a driver who enters a team which is already focused on the other guy is ever getting a fair crack at it. From day one he's stuck with a car who's handling he may not like and as we've seen from Schumacher himself, that can rob you of enough speed to make anyone look average.

Isn't it true what some people say that driving today is more like a computer game with the almost non-existant torque of the engines? It's almost like a button bashing left to right at the maximum grip level and the perfect track line to within a centimeter. Like repetitive surgery.

Back whenever 85-91 with the massive torque and 1400hp it was more about managing the brutality and violence of wrestling with the car and manual gears at the same limit.

Maybe Schumacher is better at driving in the classical sense rather than the surgery type precision.

Didn't he beat Vettel at the 2010 ROC?

Michael said at RoC that he needs to see the front tires. He isn't suited to touring cars for example as his record proved.

I am quite sure this is something that works against him. Back when driving was actually driving, he was master.

Vettel just beat him in the semi finals at the 2010 ROC I believe.

He lost to Vet in quarters, Vet lost in Semis.

The don't think the gaps are that unusual from the past. They only really became close when they changed to having to qualify with race fuel on-board.

No the quali gaps are insane now.

Like

5th. 1:18.735
6th. 1:18.752

That is literally a gap that is almost of no measurable conscious driving input. A consequent half a tenth gap was unheard of back in the 80's and 90's.

Back then the difference between 1st and 2nd was on the order of 0.2 or 0.3 secs usually, bar expectional circumstances like Senna's 1.5s gaps in qualy to everone else.

Or that massive fluke in Jerez 1997 where 3 people set the identical pole position down to the thousanth of a second.

EDIT: They qualify on race fuel capacity now?? I didn't know that. That's so dumb!
Why do they do that?

Wouldnt call it a fluke lol... abit dodgy.

You think Tag Heuer or Logines or whoever it was f*cked up?

Could be I guess.

Perhaps, but don't want to go off-topic here since this topic has been discussed to death XD.

They don't now. They used to, from 2003 to and including 2009.

what was schumachers average qualifying gap to massa during the seasons they raced together? what is the average between massa and alonso? massa and raikkonen? i bet it says schumacher is atleast on par with them and not some average tard who got lucky

According to Ferrari engineers (quoted in Italian newspaper back then) Schumacher was always half a second faster than Massa in his testing comback in 2007 (same fuel load and aero configuration etc.).

Looking at the gap between Massa and Alonso this season, you can hardly say the same applies. And this is Alonso in his prime!
I think you can compare Massa - Alosno vs Massa - Raikkonnnen. MS is (or was) in a league of his own.

BTW: I don't know how people get the perception that Massa made life diffiult for MS in 2006 and was geting closer to him. Are people forgetting the strategy they were using in 2006 (connfirmed by MS and Todt)?
MS had to finish in front of Alonso every race to still have a chance for the championship back then. But they needed someone between them. Massa had to finish in front of Alonso too. So they decided to qualify Massa lighter so that he starts in font of MS. That way MS could buffer Massa to stay in front during the first stints in the race. Massa always had slow starts and was almost passed by Alonso at the starts. They knew MS would eventually get Massa anyway once te pistops came along by putting those famous fastest laps before pitting. It was the only strategy to play so that MS could catch up faster in the Championship.

Actually it does apply to Alonso. He is on average 4 tenths quicker than Massa, and unlike 2006 and 2007, Massa is now in his prime.

You're having a laugh if you think this is the prime Massa, he's never been quite the same since Hungary 09. Very few who have the kind of head injury he did come back to the same level. He may well have exceeded his showings in 2007/8 but for the accident, but that'll be filed in the "we'll never know" section.

Which drivers are you talking about who had the exacty same injury did not come back to their previous level??? And what makes you think he is not the same since Hungary 09? Apart from being slower than you expected against Alonso. Hakkinen had worse injuries than massa and came back to win two titles. Massa is fine and in his prime and best years as a driver.

It's dumb to say Massa isn't the same after his accident in 09.... He's had some solid performances since then, but let's face it....

Who on earth would be motivated when you know you are up against someone who is infact regarded as the defacto number 1 in the team, and let's not forget he's actually out performed that 'number 1' on certain occasions.

Massa just needs to leave Ferrari and get with a team that will let him race and be himself. He's still talented, and is WDC quality after 2008, he very nearly won it, and the accident hasn't really affected him that much.... More like Alonso has 'affected' Massa, let's face it.

Getting your ass kicked and having your career on the line would be great motivation. You excuse is no better than the head injury excuse. Why the need for fancy excuses? Is it that hard to accept Massa is as good as he has always been and that Alonso is simply that much better? geez. Not like Massa was driving like fangio before Hungary 2009. Give me a break. Alonso was not defacto number 1, he had to earn it by dominating Massa. You are confusing cause and effect.

Ha, Ferrari made it clear from day 1 that Alonso is the number 1 in the team.... It doesn't do Massa's motivation that good, why can't you accept that?

I'm not even a Massa fan... Yet it's just so clear to see...

"Alonso is faster than you.... Move over please Felipe" what else is there to say....

Basically, Ferrari are stuck in their old ways of having to have a number 1 and number 2 driver, thinking that, that will bring them back to the glory days of Schumacher/Barrichello kind of setup.... But it won't work... People will see through it, and it will also destroy the driver's moral who is to play the number 2, in this case, Massa at the moment.

Massa still has the speed to be honest, but his moral and confidence is definitely affected having Alonso as the clear number 1 in Ferrari's eyes.

Ferrari should learn to be a bit more like Red Bull.... Relax a bit... But quite clearly they don't have the car and so they are stuck in a bygone age where they think having to establish a number 1 or 2 driver is the way forward...

Well I'm sorry but we are not in the early/mid 2000s anymore and it's about time they modernize.

Massa should leave Ferrari pretty soon if he wants to salvage his career, he's still a really good driver.

Because what your saying is not true. How did they make it clear from day 1, when Massa got more testing km's than Alonso in pre season 2010, and when they let Massa hold up Alonso in the australian gp and cost them a chance at victory, or hold him up and Malaysia? That proves they had equal treatment. Of course you are free to provide specific evidence for Alonso being number 1 from day 1.




Ah but that happened mid season, after Alonso was already dominating, so how could that be the reason for Massa being dominated. That logic might work in the twilight zone but not here.



No, they are just back to the old ways of having one driver much faster than the other. They are on equal terms and have equal treatment. Germany 2010 was 1 race, it does not apply to all races. Massa is allowed to beat Alonso if he is fast enough, like he did at China.

Additionally, Massa also appears to have a similar driving style to Schumacher, both tend to like grippier front ends, that's why Massa was quite comfortable with the car in 2006 and was very quick. This is no longer the case (the current Ferrari drivers have different styles altogether) so I think that's part of the reason why Massa is himself not as quick as he should have been.

wow, so the F10 was designed for Alonso prior to him even joining the team and despite Massa being the incumbent Ferrari driver for 4 years?

Are you saying Ferrari have not designed the car around their number 1 driver?

This isn't the Ferrari or Alonso trhead, anyway, I'm simply commenting on Schumacher\Massa in 2006.

Yep because it would have been impossible to do that before he even joined the team as you are comically suggesting.

Anyone with half a brain that has followed F1 for a while would know Alonso prefers a car that tends to understeer when pushed rather than over, I'm sure an actual F1 team with the pedigree of Ferrari would have known this having been in contact with their future favoured number 1 driver from 2008.

Once again, this is not the Teflonso thread, you've already taken this far enough off-topic with your replies to intothepits.

And have I ever suggested that he was some average tard that got lucky?

Of course. Massa literally copied Schumacher's driving style back in 2006 and it worked for him.

alot of people have

and more people will....

And those that do, will be as wrong as Neville Chamberlain waving a piece of paper & claiming "peace in our time".

Alonso, Massa, Ferrari and tards are pretty off topic. Please discuss Schumie.

For the benefit of all here, can you please clarify what exactly are you suggesting about Schumacher ? Please let us know where you think Schumacher stands and what his fans (and additionaly who among them) have been suggesting to the contrary.

SparkPlug, Jazza has been pretty clear. If you go to the RC forum page, click on the number of posts against the thread title, and in the small pop-up that appears look for Jazza and click on the number of posts he's made. The result will be a page comprising only his posts in the thread. Read through them and it ought to answer your questions.

Schumi's Sekret Tageblog: Petrov
http://www.planetf1.com/off-on-f1/7015848/...Tageblog-Petrov

Massa is - theoretically - in his prime. There's nothing quantifiable, psychological or qualitative to suggest that he is however other than speculation based on age and supposition.

He is a driver that performs at his best when he is 'comfortable' mentally but not when there is a lot of psychological and constant pressure. In his Ferrari 2008 campaign, he had a lot of pressure but the full weight of the team behind him. Mentally that propelled him. Now, that luxury has disappeared and he is at sea, it would appear, most of the time.

Yes he is the best journeyman driver in F1.

Remember in 2008 he had full membership of Ferrari International Assistance but it didn't do him any good..

Two events affected his mental disposition more than anything else; spring-related accident. I really do not think that he is fully recovered, and second one - realization that Alonso replaced Michael, and his chances ever being No. 1 at Ferrari are non-existent. I do not wish to read tea leafs, but I really suspect it demorilized him a lot. The vitality we have seen in early years is gone; at least I can't see it anymore in him.

If so, Michael needs to clean his mind up. It is not his business about who to become the Ferrari's No.1 Driver. He is a driver and the management decides, period.

So your basically saying Ferrari designed Schumachers title winning cars around him. No wonder the likes of Irvine, barrichello and massa had no real hope of beating him. In 2010 in a neutral car that neither rosberg or schumacher liked, rosberg nearly scored the double amount of points that Michael achieved.

A 41 year old version after 3 years of retirement

Michael? Did you mean Felipe?

1st post and you come in and spout this. Plus your username is guaranteed to make sensible people roll their eyes. There's no hidden agenda behind that is there?

MS clearly worked with Ferrari & Bridgestone to get the ideal combination of car & tyre. Then he put his skill to use in giving it the best he could. Is that the sign of a bad driver or someone who maxed out his potential to win? No doubt you'll believe RB could have beaten MS every week had he had the chance...... and blame Austria 02, despite MS gifting him 3 wins later that season (for some reason RB never mentions that fact in his many whines).

Your comment about the "neutral" MERC is incorrect as most qualified people say it was just about as far removed from a MS-preferred car as could be, plus as Mike says, he was retired for 3 years! Year 2 and the MERC is coming around and believe me, NR is learning plenty from MS, despite having an edge in 1 lap pace his race mind leaves plenty of room to improve. Not bad for the oldest driver since god knows when!