I don't get it, really I don't. This is the second time in two years that Renault has been allowed to make engine modification. Don't they already have the best fuel consumption out of all engines in F1? Rumors are that they start the race with 10kg less fuel than Ferrari's, yet Ferrari is not asking anyone if they can make their engine better. I also don't get in what way is their engine weak, they already have the best fuel consumption and this year this is far more important than maximum bhp.

I guess Redbull crying about their engines for years now has made an impact with FIA. Yet they are the ones who wanted to go with renault engine the first time around. Anyone remember how they didn't want a Ferrari engine a couple of years ago? Or how last year they could have switched to Mercedes but they didn't.

Maybe Ferrari should ask FIA if they can make a brand new engine in order to improve mpg. Seems fair to me.

The only difference between Renault and the other engine suppliers is that Renault make a fuss and send out press releases when they make 'reliability' changes because they want/though they had an actual engine freeze whereas the other manufacturers just apply for them and keep quiet.

Everyone knows that ferrari are always trying to improve their engine so it's not really worth writing about. Back in 2008 they even had a 15-20 hp advantage over the entire field in the beginning of the year.

Judging by the last race there isn't much wrong with the Renault engine that a new bag of spark plugs won't fix.

The really stupid thing about all this is that the teams do not appear to have to demonstrate that there is an actual problem that needs fixing. The FIA really does need to decide if they really want the freeze or not.

Are you sure about this? I was under impression that it was McLaren, and perhaps also Ross who shot that effort down. (... so they could NOT switch engines)

bring back v12 turbo's

They might be right, but that sounds so wrong for what is supposed to be the peak of motor racing.

This. It's a complete mess now. One of the headlines on Autosport (or other site?) went along the lines are 'Renault made the mistake of not developing their engine during the engine freeze'.

Tell me something, who on earth decided that Engine freeze was there to equalize performances ?

Ferrari fans complaining about Renault being allowed to make 'reliability upgrades'....

<snigger>

Ferrari asked a lot and were given a permission too.

Besides, it's not that FIA said: "You're underpowered indeed. Go on and do whatever you want to fix that". Renault "proved" the changes they want are related to reliability and costs and that's why they were given an allowance. It's within the rules and every current F1 engine manufacturer had exploited this. Renault is just a little bit late to the party.

P.S. Mind that Renault's requests related to fuel consumption were rejected.

The FIA should just cancel the engine freeze if the manufacturers are still allowed to develop their engines.

We seem to be in this no man's land, half way between an open and a spec formula. I'm pro open formula, but the FIA really needs to make up its mind, one way or the other. The current situation is silly.

yea they should just try to cap what they can spend each year upgrading the engine.

it wouldnt be any different to capping a teams budget in terms of monitoring (people will either lie and get away with it or wont like people could lie about how much wind tunnel testing they are doing right now)

"Back"? I think the only turbos in F1 were I4 and V6. Though a turbo V12 would be something to see!

I agree.

The obvious solution is that the manufacturers have to demonstrate that there is a reliability issue, and then only the part(s) identified can be updated. Under that rule and taking last year as an example I can see no reason why any engine should require updating.

they should see if the money cap would work for engines and let them do whatever they want with them as long as they are within the cap.

Other engines had modifications for this year so non story.

F1=farce.
NASCAR is better than this.

you're only alllowed to make changes that increase reliability and reduce costs.

you're not allowed to make changes that increase the raw performance.
that's why ferrari isnt allowed to do anything, their engine is reliable while the Renault one had huge problems in 09 and now even 2010, atleast for redbull.
Torro rosso hadnt had any problems in 09 although they used the exact same car for most of the season.

and please dont tell me it's because of vettel driving style, that is bullshit.

Well, Todt is French ..and Renault is?...Okay I will grab me coat!

Part of the problem with engine equalization is that it limits overtaking on straights if everyone has the same amount of power. In the old days, you may have had a car that handled better but was underpowered, which meant that the cars had advantages in different sections of the track, and often could exploit them. It's only one reason that overtaking is difficult, but if the FIA was seriously interested in having more overtaking, they would not conjure up ridiculous rules.

How does equalization in the middle of the lock down period make any sense? If a manufacturer created an unreliable piece of SH*T, that's really too bad! They had every opportunity to do it right like the others. Is this a competition or a farce? The FIA may as well have a one engine series, why pretend otherwise?


Cooper

because no one will want to stick around being beaten repeatidly with no chance to catch up, especialy in a high profile, high cost compertion

Yes that Renault powered Red Bull was really slow at Bahrain, almost got lapped by Hispania.

Renault (the works team) had no engine failures last year in races, and RBR only had one race engine failure (although I think Seb had one in practice as well also at Valencia. Mark had no race problems with engines IIRC. They dont seem to have an issue with engine unreliability.

The Renault powered cars speed is not exactly shabby..... at Bahrain Renault powered cars featured in the top 4 or 5 cars in every speed trap in the race, always within 1 kph of the fastest non McLaren cars..... and even Mark Webber topped the speed charts overall in the sector 2 speed trap! (Vettel clearly disadvantaged with his plug problem). Button and Hamilton topped the other 3 speed traps, but not by alarming amounts. However the McLaren straight line speed advantage is not one of engine output but is more due to their aero anorkel device. Im not saying the Mercedes engine isnt fast or not the best, but the Renault isnt far behind. Even Kubica featured in the speed charts. Plus it has the benefit of a better fuel efficiency.

It would be ironic justice if Renault, in gaining some horsepower in their search for reliability, sacrificed some of their fuel eefficiency! As for their reliability worries, do they not realise they are allowed to change the plugs? That would be a good starting point.

Judging by your username, it's pretty obvious you don't think anyone should be allowed to make changes if those changes mean they can challenge Ferrari.

And the reason why Red Bull didn't go with the Ferrari engine is because Ferrari have a history of only supplying engines to teams that cannot compete with them and they have been known to use their engine supply to influence teams that carry their engines. If it came down to Red Bull and Ferrari for a title, Ferrari would no doubt try and get Red Bull to do their bidding.

Is there any reason to believe that Ferrari would even be willing to provide Red Bull their engines? I've always assumed they wouldn't.

Ferrari didnt seem to have a problem with supplying Red Bull with engines for the RB2(?) in 2006.... RBR ditched Cosworth at the end of 2005 to take the offer of a Ferrari engine for 2006, before Red Bull passed the Ferrari engine deal on after a year to the Junior / sister (STR) team, and took on the Renault engine for itself from 2007. Ironically STR, at the time certainly only a midfielder went on to become the only time since 2006 that Ferrari had an engine win the Italian GP at their adored Monza, Vettel of course doing the honours with the win in a year when the Marinello cars only managed one car in the lower points position. That Vettel win is of course also the last time a Ferrari engine won at Monza.;)

He never said that, he only questioned Renault's legality to do so


Oh yeah i could picture it, Domenicali having a hot-line to Horner just in case there's a red bull car in front of a red one. If the relationship would have been so obviously biased I'd doubt Toro Roso would have bothered running the engines nor Red Bull have wasted their time in talks with Ferrari to run the engine either.

At least there's someone on this thread that has a clue...

Exactly, Ferrari is more than happy to sell engines to teams that they know are not competitive with them. That is what RBR was for the first few years of its existence -- not a threat to Ferrari. However, these days Red Bull is competitive. Thus the McLaren and Ferrari keeping the good engines away from them while being more than happy to sell consistent back-runners like STR and Force India whatever engines they want.

His username is Tifosi, and he specifically called for Ferrari to be allowed to make engine changes - there was no mention of Mercedes or Cosworth. What am I supposed to think?


In 1997, one of the Ferrari minnows claimed Jean Todt approached them and told them to aid Michael Schumacher and Ferrari at the end of the season.

I think the issue with having a Ferrari engine supply is not just the possibility that Ferrari may call on the supplied team to do them a favour , but that they may not necessarily get the same spec engines as that run by the Ferrari team...

Alfa Romeo had V8 turbos but they weren't too successful (Osella and Alfa Romeo teams)

I'm pretty sure the rules state that customer engines have to be identical to those used by the supplier. If it were discovered that Ferrari were manipulating race results by deliberately supplying inferior engines to competitors, the resulting fallout may just kill the sport outright. Ferrari are arrogant, but they're not stupid.

Tell that to STR - iirc they were complaining pretty hard in '08 until they recieved newer spec engines from ferrari and then they promptly went out and won at Monza...

Are you claiming that STR won in Monza due to engine? I thouth it was only due to rain and that main competitors started race from behind.

So what about races after Monza? STR didn't won anything afterwards.

No I'm not saying that it was only due to the engine - a decent chassis, the weather conditions, and a good driver all played their part. But the new engines were markedly better than the ones they were using previously.

That Monza they had a competitive driver. Green as can be, but competitive nonetheless. With both pieces of the puzzle (good engine, good driver) they were able to beat their sister team (same chassis but poorer engine). These last two seasons, however, they've got Alguersari and Buemi while RBR's got their good driver. A sufficient explanation right there in and of itself.

+1

Yeah, they've all been making updates. The "freeze" just slows the pace of updates and reduces costs.

+1

Nicely put.

I'd like more details of what the engine suppliers are requesting in terms of updates, and why. To be honest we cannot really judge as we are not told much.

I don't think you're going to get it. I imagine the exact details of engines is Secret Teams Business.

For sure, but it does mean we can only do tabloid speculation and throw wild accusations about.

FIA = French and so is Renault.

Teams can manage their own budgets I think.

If costs was the real issue and not equal engines, then simply force engines makers to use engines from their road cars. It can be tuned and modified but the base engine must come from their roadcars. One of the most powerfull F1 engines came from the BMW roadcar so it doesn't mean the engines will be weak

Engines shouldn't be performance differentiator, during freeze.
In fact Renault had one of most powerful engines at end of 2006/beginning of 2007, but others developed during freeze.
So im happy if Renault can regain few HP.

I think that cost was an issue, BMW were spending like $100M on engines back in 2004. They said that they were spending more on engines back then that they did on the entire team in 2008.

If they do put a cap on it then we can know who has the best engine under equal circumstances and it will be interesting how everyone manages fuel conservation with bhp.

What they have now is dumb, they are upgrading the engines but everyone is keeping quiet and trying to act like they are not.