So finally after all teams have the double duffers and literally designed their cars around the DDD. The FIA has something to say on it and it is to happen right from the next race and they will have to redesign their diffusers again or change it which is still going to effect in the downforce of the cars and many cars specially the Mclaren will have to rethink theirs.FIA's ruling will prevent teams adding another layer to the diffuser by exploiting the hole where the external engine starter fits.


http://en.espnf1.com/bahrain/motorsport/story/11176.html

I usually am a very regular reader and never bother posting a new topic or even replying but this really shocks me that the FIA has to do this after the first race and all winter testing and even before they were sleeping.Its really difficult to understand that how such an organization is being run...


RGRDS
ZAVI

I thought they handled it well by not enforcing it this race. Not a major problem.

I'm not sure its specially McLaren, I think a lot of teams will need alterations, it just seems to be a story thats getting tagged as McLaren only.


It'll be interesting to see all the teams involved.

Motorsport total are naming McLaren, Mercedces and Renault as the teams affected and having to make adjustments before the next race.

I wonder if the ride height adjuster should also be looked at, any chance of anyone protesting that?

That could be one of the things that McLaren was saying they are looking into, regarding other cars.

As long as it is externally controlled, and can be done only during the pits, I don't really see anything wrong with it (not knowing how the system actually works)


Also, I don't mind the way the FIA has handled the diffuser situation at all. It's really refreshing that they didn't actually shaft the teams completely and gave them some time to sort out makeshift solutions.

what ride height adjuster is that?

Redbull are rumoured to be able to adjust there rideheight.

hope that does get banned. really want to see the drivers coping with a compromised set up. they have it too easy otherwise

No it's (or was) awesome in Oz Supercars, during the pitstop they adjust the roll center height for changing conditons and fuel load - making adjustments at a pitstop has always been a part or racing history.

This is really stupid from the FIA. You design a car within the rules and now teams have to redesign the car because of poorly written rules. I'm starting to like Max more already than Todt. This is probably the end of Mclaren and Mercedes GP since their car was build with this diffuser in mind and will have to compete with a compromised car for the rest of the season.

It was like this for all the years under Max as well. This concept of 'clarifying' the rules is nothing new.
Another McLaren example is the 'tractor brakes' of 1998. Legal for the first race in Australia, banned by the next race in Brazil.

This is only a very small area of the diffuser and will not see a big impact on performance.

It's not like they can simply fill the hole and keep a similar performance from the diffuser, is it?

The car is gonna need to be started..

I think the impact from this for the teams involved might well be more significant than the overall effect of the Mac snorkel thing..

Make of that what you will..

They can epoxy in an angled plate with a hole cut out for the starter, won't have a big effect as they can retain vast majority of the bottom element's flow.

It's not a case of poorly-written rules, it's a case of clever designers finding loopholes in the rulebook. They always push the envelope, it's what they're paid to do. The teams can afford to employ the best designers, because the designer want to be working on the cars, not on the rules. The FIA can ony ever employ the next-best aerodynamicist to write the rules. And you can't let the teams set the rules - just agree to them - because then you're leaving yourself (and the rulebook) wide open to teams creating their own loophole within the rules.

The main thing I don't understand about the FIA is why they block certain loopholes and yet keep others open. Seemingly at random.

I got no problem letting the teams race with the parts for this race. It's the consistant FIA way. They don't want to rock the boat. They could just as easily have waited until after the weekend before informing them to remove it for next race. Different method but same result.

I don't think it's "racing with illegal parts", it is technically but it's just giving the teams some time to change their cars. It's changing the rules race to race though.

One of the defenses for McLaren's wing thing.. "what rules broken?.. it's legal". Legal today, could be illegal tommorow. Because that's the FIA way. If Lewis or Button bumps accidently stalls the wing midcorner and they fly into the wall, it could be banned all of the sudden.

If a team creates an innovative part, and then communicate with the FIA for a few months before the first race, and then show up at the first race for it to be banned.. if they did this with the DDD or McLaren wing, it's not fair to those teams. If they want to ban these parts they should say no in the initial stages of it's design when the teams first ask about it. That way the teams don't waste money on it for nothing. Once it gets to the stage where they get to the race track it should be rare that parts are banned and if they are banned, there should be penalties. Harsh and consistant rather then random and generous.

The other thing is if they allow a part like the McLaren wing or DDD, it is really really silly to ban it a few years later. Either ban it straight away or leave it. What a waste of money all this develop on DDD's is. They won't be on the cars next season. The wheel covers are now banned but they should have never been allowed in the first place.

Excellent Post


But what of the other teams which have got to adjust their design accordingly.There is more then one team having it and as Martin indicated that their's, its not that big then many other outfits so this seems to be that maybe many of them have to change it and lets just hope that no performance is lost by any competitor due to it(which is hard to imagine) and after it we have no rule changes what so ever and let the season be as it was intended to be ,maybe a few tweaks but they shud just act for me a bit more professionally...
Still according to many experts here is it really gonna have some ifluence or its just that it wont be that big of a deal??

Because they're not aware of them being loopholes. Car designers actively go looking for loopholes when the regulations are published. If the FIA had someone like Adrian Newey setting the rules, maybe it would be avoided - but the best designers will always work for the teams.

Although the writers of the rules didn't anticipate the double diffuser when they wrote them, they didn't outright ban it either, which means it was legitimate. So what's the point of now banning it? The teams have all spent many millions developing their own in the wind tunnels, all wated. If it is the intention of the FIA to fix F1 design rigidly, and prohibit all innovation, they should simply say so outright. "Whatever you start with Race 1 must be exactly the same until the formula runs out . . . " but that's hardly cutting edge technological advance, is it? That would make F1 like Formula Vee, except a million times more expensive.

For Pete's sake, stop forever tinkering with the rules. The engineers will always find "loopholes" because it is absolutely impossible for anybody to write any rules which don't leave room for innovation, ideas, development, specially ones they didn't think of. So let it happen. It's progress.

The point of banning it is because the double diffuser increases the turbulence generated by the car, making it harder for others to pass. You call for the FIA to stop tinkering with the rules, but if you do that, all that will happen is the developers will keep exploiting regulations and making cars that go faster at the expense of competition. The teams might want to "improve the show" with more overtaking, but they will happily sacrifice that if it means they will be faster.

What I don't understand is what is the process being used here?

I don't think the technical regulations can be changed at such short notice, so they must just be saying "after this date, we are going to ensure that everyone associated with the FIA interprets things in this way"?

I think that this is indeed an issue of interpretation, and they probably do have the right to change it. Team are supposed to have these holes for the stated purpose of using the starter.. therefore any change that simply ensures the hole can only really be used for the starter puts the teams in a position where in order to object they would have to admit they were using it for another purpose, which of course they are.

Exploiting the rules and making the cars go faster at the expense of competition is what F1 racing is all about. If it isn't about going faster than everyone else, what is it about? Besides, loose rules mean innovation, tight rules mean stagnation.

If they eliminated front wings, rear wings and diffusers altogether, that's fine. But dicking about with endless tiny modifications to the rules doesn't achieve anything except waste teams' money. I doubt that the change will, in any noticeable way, increase overtaking anyway. Specially on Tilkedromes, which consist of straight, hairpin, straight, hairpin, ad nauseum, with few if any long sweeping high-speed curves.

Lack of overtaking is caused by many factors: ultra-restrictive rules which mean everyone has the same power output and the same weight, running on the same tyres and hence practically identical performance; bad track design (for instance, you can now have a big off, and not even lose a few hundredths of a second, never mind get stranded); too many people over the wall for pit stops (there used to be a maximum of 3 in the late 60s!); the list is endless.

As far as I can work out, there is no effective cure for lack of overtaking. Fiddling with diffusers won't do it. What will? I don't know. Nobody else does, either. Maybe someone should sit down and ask fundamental questions like:

What is GP racing for? Drivers testing their talents? For manufacturers of road cars to hawk their products (ie advertising)? Just a lavish reality TV series? Cutting-edge technology? Public spectacle?

These three teams had created very strange shaped starters to get around the rule, I think the FIA is correct on this one. The hole is only supposed to be big enough for the starter to get through, making a bigger strange shaped starter is not going to be viewed as anything other than trying to cheat.

Renault don't have to alter their diffuser. The team said that there were no contacts with FIA about this topic, these rumours on ESPN and Motorsport were just rumours. Only Mercedes and McLaren have to change their diffusers.

This is what happens when a body or organisation is accountable to nobody except themselves. It is the lack of consistency when applying their own rules, which drives people mad. I've long got to the stage of not getting angry about FIA decisions like this, because in reality we're powerless to do anything about it.

This has been kept quiet and nicley handled without without too much coverage. Well done for Todt for that.

Looking at the rule in question, I think this is spot on:

"solely" and "minimum access required" makes it clear to me that the hole should be used only for the starter, not for any other purpose, and that is should be as small as is required for a starter to be used.

To be honest, I think the FIA were quite leniant to the teams who they allowed to get away with this for one race.

really they should be a tube that connects the diffuser to the starter crank that were there would be no air hole for anyone!!

I have read that the teams using this loophole in 2010 were using the same interpretation that Brawn, and maybe others, were allowed to make during 2009.

If it is true that they were using specially designed engine starters, of an abnormal shape and size, to necessitate an abnormally large engine starter hole - then I think it's pretty clear they weren't relying on the same interpretation.

The wording of the regulations is loose. The starter has to be put in very fast e.g. after a stall at a pit stop, the minimum required is relative, for fast restarting it can't be too small. FIA should put there exact number, e.g. not more than 100 mm wide etc.

Firstly - glad the FIA have acted - sometimes it seems everyone is afraid to rein the teams in at all.

Secondly - gosh, a team has to redesign some aero, and the world isn't ending. This idea that the car is designed around a philosophy, so they cannot change the aero is nonsense. This is a smaller change than banning DDD completely, but for sure, the teams would be at the next race, if the DDD was banned completely. Give them 6 weeks and they would all be able to get rid of them and it wouldn't be such a biggy - these are F1 teams, they should be able to react - its politics and the inertia of the big teams that is why its not being banned forthwith, not the small teams.

Thirdly - spirit of the law. Its all very well to say that the designers look for loopholes, but there has to be a line, where the teams think of the greater good of the sport that pays their wages. The diffuser reg changes were brought in for a very good reason, and all the designers knew what that was. That three teams chose to ignore this, and exploit a loophole, even though they knew the consequences, is shame on them. I have huge respect for RB, but in this specific case, he was very wrong to let this happen - he should have instead forced the rule qualification, gone public with it or something. That would have been both the best thing for F1, and the best thing for the good of the sport.

If you make it smaller, can you get the starter in? If so, it's more than the minimum required.

If you don't have to redesign your aero because of this, what's your problem with it? If you do have to redesign your aero, were you really using the hole "solely" for the purposes of the engine starter?

I don't see this as a loophole being closed, I see this as a loophole never having existed.

Exactly, and it's no biggie really. it won't effect the diffuser that much, I guess the only difficulty is in manufacturing it in time. It may hold back other pieces being developed.

It hasn't been kept quiet - it hasn't happened.

It would require a change to the rules which would have to be published as an amendment. There isn't one. The FIA are yet to issue a clarification.

is the starter standard?
if not, can't I design one that can't fit in a smaller hole?

I'm not surprised at all FIA blocked it, actually I'm surprised no team lodged a protest over it: the explanation that the 'minimum size' is not defined so it can mean anything is fishy in my opinion, as one can argue it is defined by the size of the starter itself so if the hole is 3 times wider than what it takes to put a starter through it, it's blatantly illegal. But good to see FIA solve it quietly, I fully support that.

They haven't blocked it. Nothing's been done, there has been no clarification as yet.

One race?

What about getting away with winning a championship?

We should be comparing starter holes (pictures) with last year's on the offending cars.. I think we would be surprised.

Ok, so it's been closed now!

This thread is most cryptic, whats being closed, the door the loophole, the thread?


Edit: Ok its twas a little poke to explore the home page, I see.....

Apparently the FIA is doing something it should have been doing way before the season started, since the 'problem' was simply carried over from last season.

Because of this, I won't rule out good ole suspect political manipulations by the FIA.. business as usual I mean.

The other alternative is incompetence, again on FIA's part..

FIA does it again.... sigh.

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13246600

the sauber one looks quite big, i wander if they are the 4th team?

Does this mean Mclaren and Mercedes (or Renault) will be slower this next few races?

I think so yes, it looks huge!

I don't think they're changing anything, per se, it's a matter of interpretation. To be honest, I don't have any particular problem with what the FIA has done here. The regulation states that the teams are allowed to have a hole in the diffuser for the sole purpose of allowing access to the starter motor. It's quite obvious that several teams have made the holes a lot larger than is necessary for access so, strictly speaking, it can't be said that the sole purpose of the holes on their cars is for access.

Its wierd that the 'sprit of the rules' is only ever considered when Mclaren are going to be affected.