I was just preparing for the new season, browsing through the articles, when I found a Tony Dodgins article on the top ten drivers 2000 - 2009 - Always interested in a top ten and wondering how he'd explain that Hamilton was actually better in that time than Schumacher ;-) , I took a look.

Contained within the short blurb on Hamilton (2nd) was the interesting comment "Without the spygate shenanigans, there's little doubt Lewis would have been a first year champion".

Interesting.

I mean - I've heard various reasons as to why LH didn't win that first year he competed in, but I don't think I have ever heard it suggested that Spygate was the reason. I can understand the attraction of using "spygate" as the reason, because then it isn't LH's fault, it's someone elses, but I can't really say that it's supported, at least from my point of view.

We are all familiar with the drama of the final races of that season, but I don't recall seeing a drop off in McLaren's form that would suggest that spygate caused the result. Obviously it was a huge distraction to RD and co, but I think the main reason LH didn't get the WDC is the fact that Alonso was his team-mate - the same way that Piquet and Mansell fought each other all season in their dominant (1986? 87?) Williams only for the consistent Alain Prost to slip through between them.

Anyway - thought it was something of a strange comment - do you? Have you ever heard spygate mooted as a reason for LH not winning that year? Tell me what you think....

cheers -

Yeah great - new season and so its time to drag 2007 up again

I think we all understand the damage to F1's credibility had McLaren won the championship that year. Whether that influenced any decision making is an entirely different matter.

If anything, i'd suggest that the FIA's reaction to McLaren winning the championship that year and their subsequent decision-making might've done more damage than a McLaren championship win would've managed....a quick look at the Forix review of the season shows one significant factor....McLaren only DNF'd twice in the last 6 races (post-Hungary to the end of the season) but only took two wins from 12 'starts', Ferrari took 4 wins from 12 starts (Massa at Turkey, Kimi at Spa, China and Brazil) and Kimi never finished outside the top 3 in any of the last 6 races....i suspect that that's the championship in a nutshell

I can think of a very good reason why Hamilton was not a 1st year champ in 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ybMTrohKCs...feature=related

I've always thought that Stepneygate increased the stress and desperation in Ron, that probably caused the fatal strategy switch for Lewis to a short second stint on options, in Brazil.

It was a poor decision, uncharacteristic for McLaren, because it didn't take account of the fact that they didn't know how fast the primes were wearing. Only when they looked at the primes that came off did they see that they couldn't possibly do half a race, and so a 3rd stop would be needed. That was the final nail in the coffin.

Just my feeling and a bit tenous I admit, to put that down to Stepneygate, but it was a stress type mistake.

Anyway there were plenty of ifs and buts, as usual. If Fernando hadn't lost his cool in Hungary, he'd have won it. Did the feuding affect the Shanghai tyre call? Who knows. Kimi won, 6 wins, well done than man.

Utter BS.


edit: I mean, we can speculate how good Mclaren would have been in 2007 if not for the spygate but to say it hindered Hamilton's chances more than Alonso's is just silly talk. Lewis and McLaren have them selves to blame for letting the WDC go to Kimi.

My thinking too - something doesn't quite sit right with me about '07 and I doubt we'll every really know what went wrong but in principle i'd agree with the Author of said article Bruce - imo without the Spygate shenanigans Lewis would have been WDC in his rookie season.

maybe without crashgate he would have been a 0 times wdc by now

this "what if" works both ways you know

Without spygate would Ferrari's floor have been exposed? How much faster would they have been with it?

Who cares?

Ifs and buts would have won a lot of drivers a lot of championships.

People forget that Lewis had the championship more or less in the bag but that he threw it away in China and Brazil. The same nearly happend in 2008, luckily for him, he was more lucky that time. So spygate or not, he threw it away.

This thread is going to go nowhere very quickly. Rehashing 2007 always ends in tears. Ducks for cover.

Whenever I see that I just think, how could that ever happen. There were yellow flags being waved on multiple places prior to the pit entrance. Looks like he's barely steering at the apex. Just doesn't make sense.

You're right, and Tony should've known better.

must of produced alot of stress and uncertainty within the team and lewis, and they just needed one thing to go a little bit better and he would of won

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ybMTrohKCs...feature=related

That has to be the most embarrasing moment in F1 ever ....

Watch the rear tyres. Mclaren were stupid to let Lewis stay out so long when it was clear his tyres were gone and had no grip. He was even 4 seconds slower than ALonso in the same car, while with good tyres nobody was as quick as him.

Remember Canada and Alonso with good tyres?

Massa still would have lost because in the pitstop, Massa would have dragged the fuel hose and later spun again dropping him back down the grid

Massa lost that race due to a pitsstop drama and by spinning. And if the FIA didn't steal away SPA and the Japanse GP ( penalised the wrong Mclaren since Heikki was the one that blocked Kimi )

The mysterious electronics problem in Brazil... never adequately explained by McLaren. Must have been annoying to have to induce that fault as they surely would have thought they had done enough in China to ensure that they wouldn't win the WDC.

DC might dispute that.

Maybe it was the other price McLaren had to pay for Spygate to Max
This one would have hurt more than 100.000.000$

I know it's only conspiration, but this theory exists since the mysterious problems Lewis had in Brazil
and that surprisingly a Ferrari driver took the WDC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xl6QV85N7g...feature=related
true

I would say that Alonso is the biggest victim of the sad circumstances that occured during the 2007 season.
He was robbed of a well-deserved WDC.

OTOH, Räikkönen benefited the most, being practically gifted the title.

Hamilton stands in the middle, I would say that he did not deserve the 2007 title and that he made his mark well enough. In 2008, well, that's another story.

Ok , in a second thought , I think that this one is even more embarrasing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCsG0DlXkU...feature=related

This is the mistaken thinking I see over and over ...

Because of Picket fence's crash there was extra pressure on to get the car out as fast as possible, NASCAR style, with a pitlane full of leading cars - pressure that would not have been more than normal.

What a stupid "what if" thread, what if Mclaren had no info from the Ferrari source, they may have had a dog of a car that year.

Nothing of Ferrari was found on the Mclaren

edit: And Massa lost that race because of the pitstop and spinning in that race. If Massa didn't spin and Ferrari did their pitstop correctly, they could have challenged for the win. It's an excuse for Ferrari and Massa making errors.

Enhance! Oh wait, this isn't CSI.


If his tyres were gone and had no grip, he should have come in way earlier.

And I'll wave back to you, for whatever reason it may be.

He should have. If Mclaren called him in much earlier he could have won that race. Or atleast settle for 2nd place behind Kimi.

I think Alonso lost points to mechanical error only once I think (France).

And lost points at Hungary for his own actions, which is not the same as mech/fail or bad team decisions.

Hamilton Lost mech/fail points at Germany, Turkey, Brazil and bad team decison at China.

So I think Alonso was lucky to score the same amount of points as Hamilton. Hamilton was the better driver that year by more of a margin than the points tally shows.

Highly doubt it was Ron Dennis himself who made the call...

Of course. Weren't you around for MaxFan1/Columbo's brilliant insight into the matter? 'Pactgate' or something

He would have had a healthy lead going into the stop, and the opportunity to stop in the pitlane right away IF he indeed took of the hose(this happened due to the pressure, I believe) rather than drive to the end of the pitlane.

He probably wouldn't have spun either, as he was dodging Trulli's coasting Toyota when he spun.

I still believe Lewis was in the wrong at Spa(runs for cover), but Japan was always a bit iffy

China was pure driving error from Hamilton. Worn tires are no excuse for going too fast and running off track. He could have driven slower and he would have been WDC. Turkey was also his fault for wearing the tires too much.He had the same problem in 2008. He also lost a lot of points at Nurburg by getting stuck in the sand when it rained and putting him in last position. . Alonso lost points in Canada because of the stupid SC rules. So they were pretty even.

If it wasn't because Hamilton crying at Monaco and Ron being the boss of the team, Alonso would have been world champion that year.

Lewis is the one driving the car being able to feel how the tyres behave. He could have pushed for an earlier pitstop.

He could have settled for 7th. Boy it's easy to say this afterwards.

With a better BMW, I really think Heidfeld would have been the 2007 champion.

But crucially, if noone had had any mechanical failures that year [excluding the debatable China incident] Lewis would have won the title. In theory.

The usual suspects are out I see...

Something really strange and as of yet unexplained happened in 2007, whatever it was.

I accept the official results but my opinion is that McLaren should have been thrown out of both of the F1 Championships in 2007. It is a farce that they were only thrown out of the Constructors' Championship. You don't separate the drivers from the team just like that. They either are in the team or they are not in the team - you can't have both at the same time.

How do you figure that when Hamilton only had one undeserved mechanical failure which was nurburg qualifying?. That's equal to Alonso.

I agree. Anyway, the commercial interests and powerful lobbies were obviously too strong.
McLaren was not thrown out completely (with a ban to compete in the remaining races and a suspended ban for 2008) and quite probably some fiddling with the results occured in the last races. So, the championship was manipulated to prevent the bad guys who should not have been in the championship from winning it, giving it to good guys instead who would have won it anyway had the rules been applied properly.

But the driver of the year, as far as driving goes, was Alonso, no doubt.

Did it still happen to Massa without crashgate?

Well, it's not all bad. McLaren may have lost on purpose - which admittedly rarely looks good in sports - but at least we know who the moral champion was that year. So what if the recordbooks don't show it? Isn't it enough that our hearts know the truth? External validation is so overrated!

You mean like we know who the moral champion was the year after?

is this thread really needed? this is old news and there is no new info about spygate so its seems to be a bit pointless to me, anyway to answer the actual query, no he wouldn't, simply a case of a ferrari kimi combo better over the course of the whole season, much like 08 lewis macca combo was better over the course of the whole season than a massa ferrari one.

Without spygate, Ferrari would have won the title much earlier.