Fisi won few times over Alonso as well.

I don't think you can fairly pit Webber and Vettel against one another. Mark is a veteran, got his first win only after 7 seasons and had a lot of dry luck prior to that. In that 8th break out year, he got 2 wins and 8 podiums (2 retirements), which was incredible seeing as he'd only had 2 podiums in his entire career to that point. Vettel had his first win in a not quite full season in 2008 (his only podium) and 4 wins and 8 podiums in his first full driving season in 2009 (3 retirements). They are just on totally different tracks as drivers.

Sorry, - while I agree Vettel is special, your analysis is simplistic to the point of absurdity and shows very little understanding of F1 or of the numerous variables that can affect drivers' careers in F1.

Probably best for you stick to something less complex to analyse in future.

Comparing him to Fisi is going overboard, he's much better all round than Fisi or even DC, but I get the point.

He really seemed to drop his qualifying edge A. going from Michelin to Bridgestone and B. from grooves to slicks.

You need understand my worry is solely directed towards his qualifying confidence. Last year despite Mark's mostly lacklustre qualifying efforts he could make it up in the races with long stints. This year it seems clear that qualifying is paramount. Back to my point, to nail the ultimate laptime you must have complete confidence in the car and yourself. Any seed of doubt in your mind will cause you to overdrive or not push hard enough. So if Mark fails in Q3 again at Albert Park, its going to hurt him.

Now jez33 makes a good point (for once) that Mark is following Fisichella's trend of choking or over driving in a good car. When he was in a midfield car with basically no real pressure he used to NAIL qualifying. This does point to unable to handle high pressure situations. Maybe Mark needs a sports psychologist

the 2010 cars and regs are crud.

Qualifying is now everything.
Almost nothing else matters other than dont bin it and dont break down.

Mark has to find some Q form or his season will be over before Jully

To be honest, it couldn't hurt and I'd be surprised if other drivers aren't using them too.

Top sports men and women in all fields use SPs to great advantage.

At this elite level it's the mind that separates the great from the merely good.

Having worked with some elite athletes (in a totally unrelated field) I've seen the results the right mental preparation can produce.

Given Mark's previous experiences in sports cars and in F1, he may even be carrying some "mental baggage" that he needs to jettison in order to rise to the challenge Seb represents.

I guess the ball is in his court, but I'm certainly not writing off his season after one bad qualifying lap...

He'll sort it out and it could just as easily be role reversal come Melbourne.

Not discounting sports pyschology at all, but a good set of practice sessions without any car problems will help more than anything else I reckon.

MW has put worse cars than this on the front row of the grid.
His qualifying performance of 09 was poor even if you take SV out of the mix.

To be honest I hope Jez is wrong about MW but if this continues it may be the best explanation.



P.S. notice the LACK of excuses and bad luck claims by MW fans.

I highly, highly doubt that. Vettel seems to have Mark's number for now.

If the last race is anything to go by then I'd tend to agree. Mark won't be giving in so easily though so I'm not going to.

Mark also has Sebs number - thought they don't call each other much.
You're suggesting they should talk a little more? Probably - but they get on very well as it is.

He was quicker than Seb up until Rubens took him out @ first corner last year wasn't he?

Seb has certainly settled into the team since then though.

He's got Sebs girlfriends number. Won it in a raffle.

I think you're all over thinking it, he's just over driving because he's trying to match Seb.

He used to NAIl qualifying but was it just a matter of shitty team mates and poor one lappers in DC and Heidfeld?

I reckon it was the change in tyres. Webber was always impressive on grooved Michelins.

Both I guess. If you dominate your teammate, it adds to your confidence, and you perform better. I agree he's a bit like Fisi, he's at his best when he's thinking he's out driving some piece of crap, putting it where it doesn't belong. When you have a wining car, anything less than a win is an disappointment.

guys - first race of the season.... mark stuffed his qualy lap, seb nailed his.

1 - 0 to seb

18 races to go, chillax

no need to break out the sports psychologist lol

Nigel Mansells middle name is "Fisi"?

So what are you going to post when Webber inevitably wins a race or beats Vettel this year?

Or are you going to mysteriously disappear (again) from the vs thread like you did last year when Webber won his first race.
You did watch Germany last year didnt you? His "inability to deal with pressure" saw him win after a drive through penalty.

/golf clap.

What a load of rubbish, we have had one race and your writing him off already. FFS he made an error in quali which anyone could have done and paid a hefty price in the race. Case closed. He can minimize the risk from now on by doing more than one run in Q3.

Mark drove very well last year and missed out on alot of points in a 5 race stint due to factors mainly out of his control as detailed before. When Seb and Mark are both on it there is not much between them. Wait until the end of the year before you go making such foolish statements

Amen.

while we're on the subject... what was the point of the only one run in q3, i would have thought the advantage of saving a set of tyres would have been nulified due to everyone one stoping?

the others comfortably squeezed in 2 runs.

I don't know who you think you are, but I do not like your tone at all. If you cannot speak more pleasantly in response to my opinions, don't bother speaking to me at all. I am not an analyst, nor have I ever claimed to be. But I gave my opinion as a long time viewer of F1. 30 years and I don't understand hydraulics or the wonders of wind tunnels, but I think all the time and money spent entitles me to an opinion of the sport. So keep your nasty comments to yourself. In MY opinion, comparing Webber and Vettel as drivers is unfair to Webber.

+1

I didnt get that either, A least with two runs they get another chance to bank a lap. I guess it was a long lap, maye that had some bearing.

Another thing about mark, Horner said they had never ran the car wth qualy fuel before Bahrain qualy 3. So he hadnt any experience on how the car would behave although seb managed fine, Mark will know now.
.
Bahrain is one of marks worst tracks along with Valencia so im expecting a big bounce back. Pole and the win in Melbourne. Yes for sure.

Exactly my point...

The lead cars had pitted but mark had an astonishing amount of fuel onboard - it was going to be very close for him coming out in p2 at the end.

I don't think Albert park is a bad track for mark - results aside he's been quick there before so I don't think he's at any particular disadvantage heading there.

yeah I think you are right because it was a long lap and then having to refuel after a run it was going to be touch and go to squeeze in the 2 laps but still doable in hindsight. You learn from your mistakes and I'm sure RBR and Webber will be onto this in future races.

Your earlier post seemed to imply that because Webber took 8 years to achieve his first GP win and Vettel had been more successful in only a season and a half, that Mark didn't deserve to be on the same track as Seb (completely disregarding the different paths they travelled to reach their current positions).

I apologise if that was not your intended meaning, but given the general tone of your comments concerning Webber throughout this thread, it was not an unreasonable inference to draw from your post.

I now understand your real position, but I personally think Seb and Mark can be compared as team mates regardless of their respective journeys to this point.

That Seb had the upper hand last year is undisputed, but it's still too early to draw any sensible conclusions concerning this season, or to be writing any driver off.

Would that be Kates Dirty Sister, or Luscious Liz?

It seems to me like Mark is back to his old days of overdriving. Perhaps a result of having been dominated pretty much by Vettel, who to most with two eyes IS on a different page to Mark. Obviously it doesnt help his confidence levels and that has just magnified the problem.

The season is long and in the end everything can happen.
My personal opinion is that Vettel has an extra something ... This doesn't mean that Webber can not beat him. He can and maybe he will.
In my opinion when discussing comparation between teamates some take into account only the facts (results) and some only their personal feelings towards a driver. Either way is understandable as long as it reasonable.

My take is that Vettel has something more than Webber just as I think that Hamilton has over Button but that doesn't mean that you could write them off. At the end of the season they might beat their teamate.

God one mistake and he's "back to his old days", haha. Funny. Whats he going back to anyways? Being epic in qualifying? Lets wait and see what happens. As ever, it's knee jerk BS from people who have pre-determined theories and favourites*. It was the same after Silvy last year, about how Seb had shaken Mark off, Webbo was out of it, getting dominated, whatever. 2 races later Mark was ahead of Seb in the championship and even that didn't mean a trend was coming!

(*I'm sure I do this too, but I don't think that should stop me from pointing out others doing it!)

From Lom and Webbers comments it now seems like the smoke on the first lap wasn't a typical oil overfill, and did kill his power through and out of T2 - bit of a pity, could've had Michael later in the lap rather than having to repass JB. Webbers website (so I'm not taking it 100%) reckons the pitstop mistake cost around 4 seconds.

A misunderstanding. I too apologize. Where I am from, it is an expression "to be on a track" - which means to be on a different path in travelling to a current position. I didn't mean the race track - lol. Of course they belong on the same race track - in fact, Mark was there first! Sorry I was not clearer - my fault.

Oh really? I quite like Webber the driver, but the issue here is that for the last two seasons Vettel has gotten the better of him. At times, quite convincingly, while the same can't really be said about Mark. He had a nice spell of good races last year, and then...?

I have no doubt Webber can match Vettel on his day, but the difference is his days seem to be far and between compared to young Vettel.

The analysis between Webber and Vettel is interesting, but I get the impression there is a subconscious bias towards Webber when explaining some of his performances against Vettel. Lets clear up one misconception regarding Bahrain. Webber was not unlucky to qualify 6th. It was his error, his mistake and he has taken full responsibility for his sector 2 balls up. The reason he messed up sector 2 was because he now has to drive outside of his comfort zone in order to match Vettel. Add in the fact Webber is under the spotlight(now Red Bull is a leading team), he is expected to deliver constantly, and for a reputed top-line driver has failed miserably to qualifying consistently high up the grid, in a car more than capable. This happened on occassion in 2009 and at the very first race in 2010. The most alarming aspect for me, is qualifying was meant to be one of Webbers ace cards. Against Vettel, Webbers qualifying speed looks distinctly average.

Applying the principal of Ockhams razor when judging the relative strengths, weaknesses, qualifying and race results between Webber and Vettel, IMO the answer is clear. Webber will truly be exposed this year by Vettel and neither is this a knee jerk, one race assessment or reaction. Bahrain just reinforced what I witnessed in 2009.

+1 Couldnt have said it better myself.
Webbo=Good Vettel=Better

Hmm - interesting to see that Webber did the third fastest race lap (1:59:487) versus Vettel 12th (2:00:218), despite Vettel leading and being in clean air for 2/3rds of the race. Also interesting to hear media reports today quoting Webber that this year's championship will be the most boring in years unless the powers that be do something urgently. Couldn't agree more after the Bahrain procession!

Did you actually watch the race or just the fastest laps results?

Maybe try reading before replying:
Couldn't agree more after the Bahrain procession!

I did read but did not reply to that.

You can't come up with any reason why Webber's fastest lap was so much quicker then Vettel's?

Yet again you miss the point. It's not about thumping in the 3rd fastest lap. Given the car he is driving, nobody should be surprised at all. Winning a WDC is about delivering the goods consistently and delivering when not at your best and under intense pressure. The first race of the season is pressure for everybody, and its extremely important to get off to a good start. Vettel and not for the first time, has a knack of delivering the Q3 qualifying goods on 1 flying lap. Believe me I'm not a fan of his, but that is impressive. Webber under the same conditions, ever since Vettel joined him as a team mate looks flakey. Bahrain 2010 was just another example.

Not really considering Seb had his engine dramas.


There's nothing subconscious about it. 30% of the people in this thread are Australian Webber fanboys. 30% are Australian Webber fans, 30% are about 50:50 between the RBR drivers and the final 10% are German Vettel fans. Yes I just pulled those numbers out of my arse! I'm 50:50 by the way, and starting to shift from Webber to Vettel.

The way people are writing Webber off and criticising him in here is bordering on moronic. F1 drivers are not perfect, no human being is and they will make mistakes. The carry on over his quali mistake is like listening to a bunch of chooks going beserk over a handful of chicken feed! Ridiculous. Get a grip people its the first race of the season. How easily some people forget how many mistakes Seb made last year. Both guys did a good job in 2009, but neither was perfect so clean the slate and move on to this year. Any kneejerk judgement of Mark at this stage of the season is pointless and unfounded so give it a rest until the end of the year when we can make an informed assessment of how each driver has performed.

He was overtaken on the straight each time, the only blocking he could have done was weaving. Apart from being against the rules, it is simply dangerous, especially in a car that is obviously sick and down on power. Petty isn't the word I would use.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Awesome.

Webber

Bring in Kubica

One season and one race dude...

Which word would you use?

Heidfeld was better than both - I'd rather see him in a top team.. His consistency would provide perfect cover for Seb in both championships.

He is in a top team....