Purely from a layman perspective, If you didn't try then you never know.
Somewhat like a high jumper who needs to slowly raise the bar one step at a time - until he fails
Well except for the failing part in F1 !

But you may as well be right - I am not a race driver myself (except on XBOX), so cant refute or confirm it fully.
Maybe therein lies the skill - that you know exactly how much faster can you go.

Not true. It was quite a while before Sebastian's drive through was called in, and then another few laps before he took it and there was a gap between the two that allows a direct comparison over that period. From memory there were about 8-10 laps. Even when Seb knew he had a drive through and really pushed it in an attempt to keep in front of Massa when he came out...he couldn't match Mark's pace.

I've seen comments from rival team bosses that were in awe of Webber's race pace in Hungary, give the guy some credit.

Umm, just to be sure I'm missing something with the tenths problem. We know this is 100% correct and e gap in FP1 was not 4 tenths but 4 undres of a s

I think Mark typically stays just under 100% on Friday, and does his full-on Q sims during FP3. Whereas Vettel seems to like being top of the time sheets, or at least faster than Mark, in all sessions. Interesting psychological comparison.

This goes all the way back through Mark's career. I remember when he and Pizzonia joined Jaguar, during the pre-season testing it looked like Pizzonia had a slight edge over Mark on pace. Come to the race weekends and Mark consistently outqualifies and outraces Pizzonia, which went against a lot of pre-season expectations.

I have no problem giving him credit. He did beat Seb quite comprehensively in Barcelona and I admit it I changed my view of Webber from then on.

But that's not how I remember Hungary at all.

Mark could have been faster for a few laps but if you do simple maths - Seb finished about 20 sec behind and took a hit of the 22 secs due to drive thru ,
so even with ignoring dirty air vs clean running , overall Seb was quicker than Mark by 2 secs over the race distance.

So how can you make the assertion that Mark was faster in race pace.

no reality?
beginning with hockenheim, Vettel is always ahead of Webber, the only way Webber could beat him was something stupid coming to Vettel's race...

Mark was beaten comprehensively in Hungary - FPs, Q, Race (until the Seb brain blunder).

Interesting use of 'comprehensively.'

Simple. About two-thirds through the race the team very obviously switched to engine management, as they always do. Webber's times dropped off a cliff at that point, I remember it clearly. When comparing race pace you can't look at the overall margin these days as the cars go full tilt for differential proportions of the race depending on what they have to gain or lose.

Webber was quicker than Seb during the race in Monza and Spa too, by the way.

Ok I give you that.

But then the only conclusion we can gather is that "there is no conclusion" regarding that race pace debate.

Or for that matter any race because the leader is always managing the engine or fuel.
Qualy remains the only measure of pace.

I think we have been robbed of seeing these two in close combat on a number of situations, either through rain or punctures (Silverstone) etc. I want to see them go toe to toe during a race on a track where there is overtaking. We haven't seen that since Turkey.

scoob. FP1 was only 0.048. FP2 was 0.395

Correct scoob, the domination in FP1 was a staggering .048 i.e half a tenth. Seb's fanboys can get desperate at times.

Which seems to happen fairly often

On top of that Webber said his front left tyre was shot for the last ten or so laps on the softs at Hungary, yet he was still pulling 1+sec a lap on Alonso. An amazing drive really.

Amazing drive - Yes !
Faster than Alonso in race pace - Yes ! perhaps because its RB6 best track.
Faster than Seb - Inconclusive ... because we didnt see them go head to head as gointhedistance pointed out.

The only way to test race pace vs each other would be a Turkey like situation which will not be allowed at Redbull at least this season.

Monaco and Barca was pretty conclusive on race pace.

Seems vettels chassis was ok for qualy at Barca only .1 of Webbers time, but during the race he was 1 second of the pace........

Also in Monaco he was .4 of Webber in qualy(and would have been closer if he hadnt of muffed his best lap) but 1 second + of the pace during the race.....

The margin in qualy between them maybe small but come race day Webber is a far superior driver.Better pace,better race management and better overtaking.

Vettel's had all the favors this year and still cant beat Webber,i expect Webber to snuff out Vettels championship hopes at Suzuka this weekend.

Okay not all Webbo overtakes are so good (which way past this 'ere Lotus, might try one up the in... whoops), but tyre management a top point

You cannot use Monaco and Barcelona as demonstrations of Webber's "superior pace" because Vettel and the team have stated that there was a chassis fault at those races, and the chassis was replaced. After the chassis was replaced, Vettel returned to his usual stronger pace, reeling off four poles in a row, and would have had far better race results were it not for his own mistakes and some bad luck.

The other races that Webber's fans like to point to as examples of Webber's superior race pace are far from clear cut. Seb was miles ahead in Hungary before his brain fade, and then spent the bulk of the race managing his lead, or being stuck behind Alonso. Spa wasn't exactly a very long appearance by Vettel, who was running ahead of Webber and stuck behind Button before his mistake. In Monza, there is no conclusive superiority of speed from Webber, considering he was once again running behind Vettel, who was slowed down by traffic.

I see no evidence that Webber is faster than Vettel in either qualifying or race pace, although it can be close at times, it can also be 0.5s in Vettel's favour at others. What I do acknowledge is that Vettel has made mistakes and has had worse luck. Webber has had a couple of good drives, but has had virtually perfect reliability, and made as many, if not more mistakes, but has got away with all but one of them.

And to suggest that Vettel is not intelligent is simply an insult. If you have heard any of his interviews, you will see that he is very sharp. Intelligence doesn't mean an immunity from making mistakes though.

No one is perfect and all drivers have made mistakes this year,but Webber has shown some great skill in overtaking all year long and managed his race and tyres beautifully at Singa and Hungary.

If you look at his qualy lap at Singa on f1.com his car was over steering all over the place and is there is one thing Webber hates its oversteer,3rd in the race was a great result.

The car looks almost perfect this weekend and Webber made a mistake at the hairpin which is what cost him in sector 2 compared to Seb in FP2,hope its dry tomorrow so we can see a good head to head in qualy with no excuses.




Why didnt the chassis imbalance/damage show up in qualifying?He put in a great lap at Barca??Excuses....

What 4 poles in a row?After Monaco Webber was on pole in Turkey and Webber outqualified him in Canada aswell............................... what planet are u on?New chassis didnt do anything because there was nothing wrong with the old one.

Without the team favoritism that Vettel had earlier in the year he would be no where.

The only reason the WDC isnt wrapped up already is because Webber wasnt number 1 from the start of the year,he is more consistent,less prone to errors and faster over a race distance.

Agree on most aspects of your post.

I guess you took offense at my saying that he isn't bright... I dnt mean to insult anyone - its more to do with immaturity.
It may have been badly chosen phrase on my part but I was seriously surprised at that race edit radio quote (they didnt show it in the race)

Mark was bound to be ahead if he went on a drive thru soon after the SC ...
The only reason for confusion would arise if the team did not tell him that Mark was on a different strategy and has not pitted at all ...
But this also he could see because he was right in front of him the whole period SC was deployed. Did he mistakenly think that he himself (SV) was the leader of the SC train ? and hence the 10 + car length gap brain fade?

Something is amiss here ...

And agree to your point of SV coming across as a very mature and level headed guy in interviews - much more mature than his age.

His race craft is immature,he seems like quite an intelligent guy with a good sense of humour.

Europe/Valencia, Great Britain, Germany, Hungary ... Earth

I have heard this before .. but the answer remains the same
- that there was no reason for RBR to make Webber #1 judging by his performances.

Your argument might make some sense next year because of Webbter's strong performance.
But then again - this argument can be applied to all top teams and virtually any driver Seb included.
Like if Mark had given up his position to Seb in Turkey & Silverstone 1st lap - Seb would be leading comfortably.

Indicate where Red Bull team favouritism has materially benefitted Seb.

If you take the two incidents where favouritism may have been at play (Turkey & Silverstone) Seb actually went away with zero and minimal points. All his points were due to good drives, all his points lost were due to terrible driving mistakes. Favouritism had little to do with anything besides create a media sh*tstorm.



Why would Red Bull back a driver who was beaten last year by his team mate, a driver who had one of the worst starts to the season (Bahrain, Aus) over a driver who was appreciably quicker and had at that stage only lost race leading points due to mechanical failure?

So his chassis finally came good once he started outqualifying Webber!!!Not after Monaco when he got his new chassis but in Valencia when he got pole.Fascinating stuff!!

Lucky he got pole in Valencia (by half a tenth) or his chassis may not have come good till Siverstone where he needed a front wing that gave him .3+ advantage over Webber so he could beat him to pole position(by .1)........






Turkey,Silversone,Canada and they are just the ones we know about.

Webber was on the back foot all 2009 and still had Vettels measure up till Spa till he had his run of bad luck/outs.

Sure i agree it wasnt possible to back Webber as the number 1 driver this year but backing Vettel to Webbers detriment was a foolish mistake.Equal status from the start of the season would of seen Webber with another 12 points (10 in Turkey and 2 in canada) and backing him for number 1 from Monza onwards would have seen another 6 points added to his tally.Webber would have a healthy lead over everyone bar Alonso.With Vettel driving wingman this weekend the title would have been just about in the bag.

RedBull are going to do it the hard way instead.

You still have not demonstrated where team favouritism, even if it even existed, materially benefitted Sebastian Vettel.

Turkey and Silverstone the intent was there and Canada they told Webber to hold station behind Vettel because he was having problems.

Even a blind man can see there was favoritism,if positions were reversed in the standings right now Vettel would be number 1 no doubt.

I find it hard to believe that if the roles had been reversed at Monza (i.e. Vettel was leading the championship and Mark was 24 points back) that Mark would have been given the superior strategy and allowed to nab points that Vettel could have used against Alonso and Co.

I dont think that Vettel was given the superior strategy,Webbers just didnt work out.When he came out from his stop he just missed out on getting infront of Kubica which held him up badly and then they both got stuck behind the Hulk.

If it wasnt for some bad luck getting stuck behind those 2 Webber easily would of been infront of Vettel and rosberg as he had much better race pace.

He didn't get pole in Turkey and Canada.

I don't think they 100% knew it was a better strategy - in fact it was Vettel that pushed for it. To me it seemed a better strategy at the time. But the point is that a team like Ferrari would have crunched the numbers and realised there was a significant chance of that strategy leading to Massa coming out in front of Alonso, and would have gone out of their way to make sure that didn't happen.

Red Bull have enabled Vettel to stay in the fight - I really do approve of that, but it hasn't been good for Webber. I think Webber's poor attitude after the race in Monza was him being cheesed off that the team had allowed Vettel to pick up those points from him when in Canada he'd been asked to turn his engine down and hold station behind a mechanically hampered Vettel. I'm sure he'd love those points from Canada now.

Truth is, there is almost no way to judge Hungary, monza, singapore, Spa because they both got duff starts and were up the arse of other cars all race.

Regarding rain, I agree that the RB6 has looked sketchy in the wet. One thing we can agree on is that Seb and Mark are proven drivers in the wet, both pulling midfield cars to the pointy end of the grid in the past in the wet. In China the car looked AWFUL, really bad.

it seems to be Ok in mixed conditions but in real rain it's a mess.

Ye i see what you mean.

I too very much doubt that Webber would have been allowed to have finished in front of Vettel had roles been reversed at Monza.

If Webber misses the championship by a couple of points heads should roll.



The redbull ate its tyres in china,in Spa Webber looked faster in the wet than the dry and he was awesome getting pole in Malaysia!!

It hasnt rained enough to tell how good the redbull is but in the wet you need downforce and redbull have plenty of that,i dont think the wet will pose any problems.

If we are talking about favouritism again, Holly Samos and David Croft did an extended interview with Webber in the latest 5live Chequered Flag podacast, and they brought up the issue of favouritism with him. He was quite frank about it, saying that among the people who were working with the drivers there was no favouritism yet there probably was amongst some of the team management, but that Horner, Newey and Mateschitz are very fair to him. One name was conspicuous by its absence there. He also acknowledged that the team probably weren't expecting him to challenge for the title.

Of course, none of that really covers any possible on-track favouritism like Canada, but it was an interesting interview nonetheless.

Still, despite the accusations, no one has provided an example of where favoritism has benefitted one driver over the other in a material sense.

Canada is a conspiracy theory. Even if Mark caught Seb there would be resistance, and the team would not allow that given what happened at Turkey. I don't see how Seb leading Mark at Canada, then the both of them finishing in that order, was an indication of team favoritism at play.

in turkey sure he didn't - the stabilizer broke on his flying lap. he already had a 0.4 gap to webber on sector 2 - then he had to do the last 3 corners driving on 3 wheels, as his front left (?) wheel was in the air.

Sorry mate, I don't remember it like that. I though vettel's problems was in section 1 in his final hot lap for Q3 where he run wide (because of the car) or something. He was never .4 ahead of Webber in section 2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong since it was a long time ago - with some evidence too.

You are right RME,when he came to turn one his front wheel was off the ground.His car was already damaged on his out lap.

Zava is thinking of his first qualifying lap in q3 not his second.Everyone improved on their first run times in Q3.

Vettel was looking faster that day but he was favored by having a new aero package given to him on friday when Webber didnt get his till just before qualy.Vettel had a lot more time to perfect his setup.

If you run an illegal car too low you just KNOW you're going to be in trouble with ride height in the wet.

Is that the best you can do mate, fair dinkum. Just the same old dribble

Um, you do know that cars run higher in wet conditions right? If the Red Bull is flexing illegally they can't stop it by altering the ride height. Ergo in the wet it is likely to have an issue. Logical, no?

Please explain how Red Bull are allowed to run an illegal car

In Canada, Webber was told to slow down, but Vettel wasn't. Webber's crew did not pass on the full instructions, because they did not want Mark to give up his lead. Matershits did. Webber defended his line, and there was a collision. Matershits blamed Webber, because he did not follow team orders. That's all material.

Next race, amongst media frenzy, RBR state that there is no team bias. Webber's new design front wing is removed from his car, Webber's team did not even know. The wing goes onto Vettel's car, who had broken his wing. Webber wins the race, and says 'not bad for a #2 driver'. RBR clarify that the championship leader does get preference. No one knows if that only applies to Vettel when he's leading the championship.

Of course, there is no team bias. And a nod is as good as wink. Say no more.

Uh because their cars pass tests but contravene rules? Have you not been following?

Uh where did you get that story? Webber's team in the garage didn't see the Vettel side pinch the wing that Mark couldn't tell made the car any quicker??? WTF??!?!

What are you smoking mate? If they have passed all the tests then there legal. What part of that don't you understand.

Which part are you missing or not following Kanga? No they aren't legal. They pass the TESTS but don't adhere to the RULES. Because the TESTS are flawed and don't reach the LIMIT of the RULES. You've either had a Fosters too many or you just haven't been following this whole bit.

Favoritism doesn't have to have a material benefit to prove it's favoritism. At Turkey it was obvious the team wanted Seb to win but he made a complete meal of the pass. At Silverstone Seb got the new wing & grabbed pole (clear favoritism with a material benefit). I don't blame Seb for taking the wing because Newey wanted it used & only one driver could have it. It was very poorly handled by team management though & in the end Webber beat Seb off the line & drove brilliantly for the win.

p.s. Again, i don't blame Seb for the decisions made at Turkey, Canada & Silverstone. I blame that d***head Marko who clearly wants Seb to be number one. Seb would be far better off if he was free of Marko's influence. He's blown so much sunshine up Seb's ar$e that Seb already thinks he's a world beater & it reflects poorly on Seb imho, the fingerboy stuff after qualifying for example. But Seb will mature & i'm sure he'll win at least one WDC. But this season i really hope Webbo wins it. Mark has shown that when he's fit & given a competitive car he can match it with anyone. It'd be great for him to take the title in the twilight of his career, he deserves it.