Shanghai
Silverstone
Suzuka
Abu Dhabi

4 wins all in dominating fashion.
Good performances at Bahrain & Singapore too.
A few retirements, a couple of accidents and a few forgettable races.

All up a pretty solid championship campaign.

Ok,Bahrain stuck behind Toyota and Singapore speeding? Still good?
So these are the proofs that Vettel is better than Button by far?

I'd say because Button's history shows he's good in a great car, but absolutely terrible in a bad car.

Vettel's not had an absolute dog to drive yet, granted, but I think we all here believe he has the talent to drive around car problems and get the maximum out of a package. He might put it in the wall occasionally as a result (eg Monaco last year), but at least he'll be getting the maximum from the car.

I'd say the same for Mark to a slightly lesser degree. The one blip on his record is that first year at Williams, and that had a lot more to do with Mark being frustrated that his dream of winning races for Williams was dead before it started.

As far as Webber and his detractors ... I think the most vocal anti-Webber commenters were fans of drivers that Mark got in the way of at some point, either by getting a seat 'their' driver should have had, or by beating that driver into the ground. Pizzonia being primary example, as that's when the most vehement anti-Webber people seemed to turn up.

So you cherry picked two cases over the obvious 4 he pointed out at your request and you want to have a sensible discussion?

Guys, the thread is Vettel vs Webber 2010, Button has no place in here.

Are there any of these still around?

I don't think it is Anti-Webber to suggest that Vettel's 4 year career is so far "metoric" in comparison to Webber's 9 year career. Comparitively, 2009 was the best year of both of their careers - and Vettel was clearly the stronger of the two. Webber gets the award for longstanding competitive driver between the two - but that is a rather meaningless title.

let`s be honest, it`s highly unlikely vettel is able to stand close to webber this year when the letter is full comfortable with the car. last year despite he had the best car on the grid ( especially in the second part of the season) and underperforming button he dropped the ball. without injury webber would`ve been wdc last year imo. remember that vettel had full support from the whole team and webber had initially troubles with the car, how it was important to get know with the car we could see when fisico jumped into ferrari.

good one

ok, vettel is good even better than i thought before last year, but for sure he`s not as good as you think he is. this year, as we can suppose red bull among the fastest out there, the truth will be soon unveiled.

As a Webber fan, I can't let this load of rubbish pass without comment...

Mark was compromised last year, sure. He's had much better preparation for this season, and goes into it fit, healthy, confident and knowing the car. All things that should help him push hard through the whole year. But to claim that he's miles better than Vettel is just plain wrong. Vettel's strong, and he'll only have learned from last year. I'm forseeing a pretty even battle again this year, with neither driver gaining much of an upper hand.

If one of these two gets pounded this year, it'll be Mark and it'll be because Seb steps it up a gear having learned from last year.

Just to backup Webber's talent, RBR team boss Christian Horner has come out and rated Mark the dark horse for this years WDC. Also notes Mark is NOT at the end of his career rather in his prime. Nice to hear praise from Horner and things that us Webber fans have already known for years...

----------------------------

HORNER BACKS WEBBER TO MAKE IMPACT

Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner feels an overlooked Mark Webber is the dark horse of this season's Formula One world title battle.

"I don't see any reason why Mark can't be a contender," said Horner.

"People overlook him, but for me he is the dark horse of this year's championship.

"For sure, Sebastian is a prodigious talent, and to be challenging for a championship last year was remarkable for a guy in only his second full year of grand prix racing.

"A lot of lesser drivers would have wilted under the pressure of having Sebastian as a team-mate, but he hasn't.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Full story

Ahhhh ... that puts some more context to Horner's interview here on Autosport recently. Clearly Horner believes Mark has the ability to beat Vettel, and for the first time we have a clear admission from the team that Mark *was* compromised by his injuries last year.

Webber has been compromised and injured for 8 race seasons? He got his third podium - as well as his very first win after 7 full seasons of driving - literally 100's of formal F1 races. As Chris says in the interview - many in Webber's place would be intimidated by Vettel - and even if Webber is not, there is a reason he said that.

lol you made me laugh.

What are you getting at? So what if it took Mark a long time for his first win. Various factors contributed to that over the years. You obviously don't read closely alot of the threads about Mark because if you did you would know that up until last year has has not had a car that was able to win races on a regular basis. Only a handful of times in a few years before that he was able to put the car further up the grid than it should have been and almost bagged his first win, but cruelly was denied though no fault of his own. A few examples....

Australia in the Williams in 06 (leading the race mechanical failure. DNF)
Monaco in 06 (strong 3rd possibly a shot at the win after pitstops, wiring loom burns. DNF)
Japan in 2007 (Vettel runs into the back of his car. DNF. Was flying before that catching the leading Hamilton in the wet)

Anyone with half a brain knows its virtually impossible without luck to win a race in a substandard car. What he did in some crappy cars over the years was at times astonishing. Luckily those that matter most recognise his ability and its part of the reason why he is still around in F1 and able to hold his own against any of the other drivers. Injury free I think he is peaking at the right time (Horner believes it too). If we saw what he can do last year with injuries and interrupted pre-season I can't wait to see what he can do this year. Hopefully opinions will change if he does well this year, but even then some probably won't. Its like the old saying from that movie Cool Hand Luke.... "What we've got here is failure to communicate....some men you just can't reach..."

That's all true .... but I back Vettel this year ;)

As will most people when looking at the RBR duo.

The first few races will let us know if Mark has any chance in 2010 or if 09 gave us a good idea of the relative gap between the two.

Yeah it will, whilst Vettel looked the faster I still maintain Webber had a few races where other drivers were just plain idiots. He could have been leading Vettel by a dozen points after Germany.

I wasn't getting at anything. It takes some people longer than others, I agree, and that doesn't mean anything because many have more experience before coming to F1, better cars, etc. I was merely making the argument that Vettel is the stronger driver in my view. I have watched Mark since he came to F1 - and Sebastian as well - and that is just my opinion. The only reason I brought up the podiums was because I wanted to show why I felt Vettel was stronger at this point in his career. In other words, it hasn't taken him 7 seasons to achieve what Mark has in as far as winning. Mark has experience, but that is not always enough - as we have seen with many drivers. I am new to forums, but I've been watching F1 for a very long time, so you are right, I don't know what everyone here has "agreed" upon already - but I have formed my opinions on my own.



There is no reason to be defensive - I have never missed a race. Mark is a good driver or as you say, he would not have lasted in F1. However, the thread was Vettel v. Webber 2010. I happen to feel Vettel is the stronger driver. That is merely my opinion and I am okay with everyone feeling it is worthless, lol. I am not a "Vettel fan" - so for me, if Mark were WDC in the end, that would be great. But I have to be honest, I think there are a number of stronger drivers than Mark out there and they are all going to have to have problems for him to mine a path to a WDC, imo (including Vettel).

Well no surprise I am backing Webber ;) Going to one of the best seasons ever I think, so competitive up the front, new variables etc. Can't wait!

Ok I think Vettel is a great talent, but its still to early to say how good he really is. He made a few mistakes last year which you learn from through experience, but then again he hasn't had to battle with some of the very ordinary cars Mark has had to put up with in his career so far. If Mark had have gone to Renault instead of Williams who knows he may have already been WDC and we may not be even havng this discussion. At least this year I think things are going to be quite a bit more even with no different qualli fuel loads so it will be very interesting to see how that side of things pans out.




Defensive maybe but it annoys me when people keep hammering on about how long he's been in F1 when we all know you need a good car to win races and only last year did he have that. Even Horner highlighted that point in his article. Its very hard to judge who is better than who over their careers as many a good driver has never won a WDC or even won a race over the years. Also it would be far easier if every driver had the same equipment from day one to compare with but then thats not F1 is it? Therein lies the problem. Either way they are both great drivers and it will be very interesting to see how they go this year. Roll on Bahrain!! Go RBR, Go Seb and most of all GO MARK!!

As far as race consistency in 09 goes, Mark proved he can manage his tyres very well which is going to be big again this year. The best thing to take into this season from Webber fan's is how buoyant he has been in interviews. He is usually very reserved pre season and even during race weekends. I think his confidence is running extremely high at the moment which can't be bad. IMO he needs to nail qualifying in Bahrain to start off on the right foot and not get trounced all year in qual.

Right - Senna and Prost were like 5 years going in and Raikkonen 7, Mika 8, Alonso 4, Mansell like 13, Schumi around 4 - to name a few. They were all great drivers and hooked up with the perfect car at the perfect time. Hamilton was quicker, but most aren't. So I'm not hammering on about time. I am considering what was done in that time. Mark seemed to always finish between 10-15 or so (if memory serves). Everyone has had to deal with reliability issues and losing seasons, but Mark's results were fairly consistent. He did great last year, comparatively, so we'll see how it goes this year. On another note, one of my best memories from 2007 was Mark exiting the pit on a spin in the first race and missing that barrier by a hair. It was a miracle that he got out of that unscathed - so I do have some good memories too.



I disagree with this. I think Webber needs to shut up. He is really quick to speak badly of others, holds grudges and let's his anger get the better of him on live broadcasts with the cursing and such (which I find hilarious, but not for the kids).

Most of the guys you mentioned had at least a couple of years in a decent car. Mark has been a long time in very average cars until last year and was noted as the unluckiest guy in F1. Still he managed to do some great things in those average cars, but until last year couldn't win a race through mainly no fault of his own.

I don't think he needs to shutup. F1 needs characters like him otherwise we may as well be watching robots. Don't know where you have the holding grudge thing from? In the heat of the moment he gave Seb a hiding after Japan, which wasn't theright thing to do, but you can understand where he was coming from after almost getting his first win after many years and battling along. They always congratulate each other on good results and they both get along great now. Hardly call that holding a grudge.

You talk about anger on live broadcasts, what about DC on Massa saying he was "going to kick 3 colors of sh#$ out of the little bastard!" after a race a few years ago in Australia! lol

Mark pretty much doesn't mince words and is your typical larrikin aussie, but he does respect and give praise to other drivers quite often as well. Not to mention his charity work for kids with cancer outside of F1. A top bloke who is often misunderstood.

10 - 15? You've been watching F1 how long? In past pre-2009 seasons, Webber has generally been a 6th to 10th finisher .... when the car held up. Mark's non-finish-due-to-car-dying record is quite a ways ahead of anyone else in F1 with more than 50 races under their belt.

.... and it was entering the pits too.



I think you're forgetting he's Australian. It's how we are. I dont think he's quick to speak badly of others by any means, but he will say what he's thinking (like compatriot Alan Jones did/does) unlike most of F1. If you dont want his honest reaction, dont stick a microphone in his face when he's obviously pissed off!

He's only done that once hasn't he, after Fuji, I think if he's pissed off he tends to go into hiding for 10-15 laps before he talks to the media. Fuji was a blip because she caught him while he was walking into the medical center. Sneaky!

We were discussing driver standings based on total points for the 7 seasons - not race finishes.




Well being Austrailian is a bad excuse for cursing while being broadcast, lol. And remember, I don't think less of MW for doing it or hold it against him, I am just saying that because of the kids, he probably should just not speak to the media, except in controled situations - precisely because he gets too angry.

I think you'd be surprised what the kids can say these days - Webber has nothing on them lol...

The reporter must take some of the responsibility for their actions as well. They are after a story. They egg it on by going after the driver when adrenaline and testosterone are pumping and then throw the very thing they are out of the race for in their face. Don't run up, kick him in the shins, and when he curses yell "for the kids sake!"

This is a sport that we should not forget has life and death consequences sometimes. We are not watching Sesame Street.

Give him a break. He brings some humor into F1. Like kids don't know curses.

Since last year drivers have not been allowed to leave the circuit and must make themselves available for interviews first or face a penalty.

And with the rules as such the powers that be should not be surprised by a bit more "questionable behavior" from the drivers. I like Webbo for speaking his mind. Right or wrong you know his stance.

I agree that the media have to take some responsibility also and choose their times better. MW is ultimately in control of what comes out of his mouth though and there is a certain amount of responsibility that comes with his position as a driver. I don't think the answer is to ban children from watching it. I realize they know curse words and curse themselves - and often their parents curse in front of them, but the point is that many parents don't want them listening to their sports "heroes" cursing because they like them to act as role models. And it only applies when they know they are being broadcast for certain. We are speaking of Mark, comparatively with Sebastian and in light of that, you see much less of this type of thing from Sebastian. I would conclude that it makes Sebastian a more family friendly driver, at least at present. But in the Vettel v. Webber battle, that means nothing at all.

Great Post

The only reason people talk about him like he's a kid is because he cries when he messes up, which is quite often.

He has as much experience as the other young drivers on the grid - he is just more accident prone.

This post is an utter piece of hui. You were on my ignore list, but occassonally I check whether there was a change and I should remove your name. However after reading this, back you go on the list. Good Bye.

The RBR boys seem to get on fine. Why can't we?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/mar/0...-bull-interview

It is always funny to read about that topic

So, who will win the mighty teambattle in quali and race?


H2H

edit: Vettel. ( posted in wrong thread )

Hmmm... Webber looking like he might have the edge over Vettel atm. Qualy should be interesting - Vettel has been known to pull one out when it counts.

OMG snap...

No way did i expect a margin like that., even hopped MW may take it to SV this year.
ho hum

Quali

Vettel 1-0 Webber

What a performance by Seb, pulling out more than a second on his teammate. That has to be applauded.

Webber clearly made a mistake in the final sector. Was +.2 through the second sector to Vettel and ended +1.18. As I recall had the overall fastest sector 3 in Q2.

Very disappointing.

Mark buggered up sector 2 something awful.

Not surprised by the positions, but the gap.
I would like to know what the tyre choices were.

It was difficult to tell, but I think Mark was on the primes and Seb on the options in the final Q?

That would make sense from a team perspective, - split the risk and run with two separate strategies.

I stand to be corrected, but I hope that's the case. (Either that or Mark was almost a full second slower in Q3 than Q2 for no apparent reason...)

Everybody exept Sutil was on softs in Q3

The One lap Wunderkind

Assuming Mark was on softs then again a disappointing Q3 for him...