And that's probably the reason for certain people to smacking him. It's a lack of confidence. Not on Seb's part but on his forum-brigades.

Luckily Seb is no moron. He is gifted in a very unique way. His F1 career started as a rookie-teammate to Nick Heidfeld, effectively setting up the car with him. Then he was allowed to brush off his "noobishness" for a backmarker team without much pressure before signing with a top team. Which new driver gets an opportunity like that, except for Hamilton? Plus, he also seems to have a good relationship to Michael Schumacher. And he has never said anything bad about Mark. Instead he occasionally stated how thankful he is for the help Mark and even DC gave to him. He knows his time will come sooner than later. So he can afford to be a nice guy in a rough sport.

In McLaren, in Ferrari, in Mercedes?

You know the only driver Vettel beat before Webber was Bourdais who then got beat just as easily by Buemi a F1 rookie, Vettel has a lot of potential but to class him as the fastest driver in F1, faster than Lewis, MS and Alonso, is jumping the gun somewhat

All of whom he beat last year, his second full year in F1, in a car with no Double Diffuser (he beat Rubens) and a 'Factory Second' engine. He beat Webber in equal machinery last year, so the odds are not only that he will beat Webber again, but will challenge for the WDC again in his third year in F1. His 2009 WDC was compromised by poor equipment, bad luck (being crashed into) and inexperience. Hopefully 2010 will be his year.

All of which may be true but I think what is being pointed out is the fact that he has the POTENTIAL to be the fastest. I like him a lot but he has not surpassed FA, LH, certainly not MS. Give him time.

He's in the same league and given time he will be a multiple WDC.

All agreed then!

No, simply Vettel has too many unforced errors in Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Turkey, Singapore. And his start of every GP was very poor and always stuck behind a slow car (Bahrain, Hungary, Italy). I'm sure he will miss WDC again this year , and maybe he will be even worse than Webber. And you say his failure in 2009 was due to poor equiment? Ok, this year,maybe it will be poorer.

I'd put fun money on Webber this year. I'm actually starting to really dig this team. I like the personalities, the livery the talent, the aggression. If I wasn't such a hard McLaren supporter I'd be rockin' some Red Bull merch.

Yes he's certainly got potential but this year he will be up against MS, Lewis and Alonso in competitive cars, no easy task

And don't forget Webber , Button, Massa, even Rosberg. They are as strong as or better than Vettel.

No..they are not.

I don't think you can blame Vettel for poor starts - both Red Bulls were poor off the line. I think it was due to a couple of things - engine (mapping, horsepower) and mechanical grip.

Being monstered by the KERS cars behind them also exaggerated things, but there will be no problem with them this year.

No he has a point, quite a few times last year Vettel started in front of Webber but was behind him by the end of the first lap.

He just needs to improve his racecraft - when cars are all around him - and overtaking before he can take it to someone like Lewis when they both have good cars.

Adrian Newey is probably the all-time greatest car designers. He's also noted to excel when given a blank piece of paper like 2009 was. To say he had poor equipment is a gross over-exaggeration. He had the best car on the grid for much of the season. I think Vettel will challenge for the WDC this year certainly though

I think Vettel's still got a bit of development in him. Even with that though he gave Button a serious shake for the world championship and had he been a bit more seasoned would have almost certainly won it.

Interesting to read the Horner interview on Autosport earlier. When asked about their title chances this year, he specifically singled out that Mark is "in great shape". Is that a backhanded admission that Mark's injuries last year were affecting him more than they admitted, or is it - perhaps - an indication that Mark's testing times have been better than Vettel's this winter?

Of course, it could just be Horner bigging up his GP3 business partner ;).

I would certainly classify Vettel as being the equal of Hamilton..... by the same token I would put Webber in the next rung down to that. Comparing drivers as being as good as Schumacher, im not sure that the 2010 Schumacher will be anything like Schumacher at his peak. He is certainly beyond his best years, still clearly handy, but past his best.... and to think otherwise is risky. I am sure MS will have races where he is brilliant, but I am sure there will be others that are blemished by error, as seemed the case in his last years pre retirement. I believe he will struggle to match Rosberg for sheer pace, certainly initially.

I suspect Mark will struggle similarly to match Vettel again this year.

10bux Mark webber wont make it past the first 3 corners in Melbourne.

Well he certainly hasn't had much in the way of results or luck since his debut race with Minardi in '02 when he came 5th.

'03 - Jag - Q 14th - Ret. Rear suspension failure
'04 - Jag - Q 6th - Ret. Gearbox failure
'05 - Williams - Q 3rd - Finished 5th
'06 - Williams - Q 7th - Ret. Gearbox failure while leading race
'07 - Red Bull - Q 7th - Finished 13th after throttle malfunction and jammed fuel flap
'08 - Red Bull - Q 15th after front disc brake failure - Ret. after contact from Davidson damaged suspension at Turn 3
'09 - Red Bull - Q 10th - Finished last with damaged car after he was turned into Heidfeld by Rubens at the first corner

Love to see him on the podium at his home GP - a win would be unreal - but I won't go getting my hopes up lol...

Is this the first season Webber has come into a season knowing his car can (should?) fight for wins straight off the bat? Last year I don't think they thought Red Bull would be at least #2 car going into the season.....

I reckon he probably thought the '05 car was going to be a race-winner, qualifying 3rd in Australia and finishing 5th wouldn't have been too disappointing.

Complete rubbish. People forget in 2006 Vettel was officially the BMW reserve driver, including 3rd driver practice for BMW after JV left and Kubica took his race seat, from the Hungarian GP onwards. That was 6 races until the end of the season. So Vettel had 6 GP's worth of driving in FP1 + FP2, in a bona fide F1 car gaining valuable experience. In 2007 whilst he was the official BMW reserve driver, after Kubica's Canadian horror crash Vettel had his 1st F1 race around Indianapolis. Four races after his GP debut for BMW, Scott Speed got the sack and Vettel got to drive the remaining 7 races of the 2007 season for Toro Rosso. At the end of 2007 it was confirm Vettel would get the 2008 Toro Rosso Drive full time which he did.

Vettels 2009 balls up of the WDC was not down to a lack of experience, like he was thrown in at the deep end and told to swim. Vettel only has 8 races less experience in F1 than Hamilton, and Hamilton gets no slack what so ever. So excuses for Vettel and his alleged lack of experience, just wont cut it. Last year Vettel only had Button to fight for the WDC and he couldn't do it. If pre-season is accurate, not only will he have Button, but also the 2 Ferrari's, Hamilton and Schumacher. Any f**k ups this year by any driver, will be punished more severely in lost points, than any other season to date. IMO if Vettel is not seasoned now, he never will be and neither can he cry about "the little magic KERS button" On track overtaking during a race, will be even more vital this year. A weak point of Vettel's in 2009.

Good post.

He might still look like a kid but he certainly has build up enough F1 experience over the last couple of years to not be considered one anymore.

And that KERS rant in every PC was indeed very annoying.

This is the fact!!!

I think that you forgot to make Seb responsible also for climate change in Antarctica.

OK, you say, which one is not his responsibility?

The subject has been discussed ad nauseum over the winter, thus I have no plans to start all over again one week prior new season. Follow history, before you post. You will find that while a few on this BB will happily agree with you, but in depth analysis reveals not all incidents were black and white issue as you are painting it, which is a main reason why I dismiss your accout as they were all Seb's errors.

In depth analysis by Vettel fans?

Ok, let's look forward to watching the first GP. This season will prove Vettel's true value.

Always refreshing to read the views of someone who watches with their eyes open

Indeed. Your whole post centres around Vettel being almost as experienced as Hamilton, which aparently suggests he should be a seasoned F1 driver by now. Yet Lewis has been as, if not more, erratic all throughout his career. If anyone "ballsed up" a WDC it was him. And there was plenty of slack coming from his camp and the media. Australia, Monaco, Italy, etc. were all excused with inexperience/age at some point.

Vettel will be a much calmer driver this year. I won't be surprised if the points margin to Webber doubles TBH..

Again, a pretty one sided view of the Vettel´s shortcomings. Sure, he made a few mistakes last year that cost him in the end, but to compare him to Hamitup and not mention how he lost the title in 2008 because of a series of stupid mistakes, is to ignore the obvious.
Odd how Lewis was able to make the necessary corrections needed to gain the title the following year, but according to you, Vettel is incapable of eliminating the mistakes, and will continue to make the same errors he made last season. You also overlook the fact the Hamitup had literally thousands of hours preparation in the most sophisticated simulator that existed in the world at the time, and was heralded as the best prepared rookie ever to enter F1.
Just thought I´d bring a bit of balance to your post.

Some of us are with F1 over 25 years, and I have been Seb's fan shortly after MS retired (first time), when many on this BB, especially Kubica's crowd, had dissmissed young Vettel as a messed up prospect.

Then yes, you can take your smirk of your face, dispose of your sarcasm, and realize, that not all of us are the same.

I think what a lot of people fail to recognise is tha neither Vettel or Webber had been in a title fight before. Its one thing being in a midfield, back of the grid car to being in the championship race. The pressures are different. There were errors and car failures on both sides. If the Red Bull had been as bullet proof as the Brawn, the championship results would have been very different. Put the mistakes aside from both drivers, reliability from the car was the ultimate factor.

One thing I did notice was Vettel's mistakes dropped as the season progressed. Vettel grew up a lot last year. He showed towards the end of the season that the pressure didn't get to him and he battled harder. If the Vettel that finished last season had started 2009 with the same mindset and maturity, I believe he would probably lost less vital points.

Webber last season was hard to juudge due to his injuries. Like Vettel he was a novice to this situation, however his overall maturity did show. I think his injuries did hamper him and was therefore unable to show his full potential in this situation. As his injuries have virtually healed, we should be able to get a more accurate assessment of how the 2 fair against each other.

It all depends upon how things are viewed. What one person considers thrashing their teammate and another says is only just beating them is open to interpretation. Under the previous points scoring system is 1 point a thrashing? Or does it have to be 10, 20 or 50?

Oh that I did not claim at all, did I?

It just sounded so vague.

Something I'm getting very tired of in this thread is the constant generalising. Vettel diehards saying the Webber fans are just making excuses. Webber fans saying the Vettel fans can't analyse history properly. etc.

FFS, aren't we all a bit more intelligent than that? There are completely unreasonable fans on both sides, but in both cases those specific individuals do not represent the group as a whole. I'd say by far the most common group in the Webber fan camp are people who are Webber fans first and Vettel fans second. Like me. I'd prefer Mark has a great year, takes the WDC or at least beats Vettel. But at the same time I'll be quite happy if Vettel wins the WDC as well, just as long as Mark shows the same quality driving he did last year (minus the chopping moves that got him that drive through).

Similar story with a lot of the Vettel fans I see here. They're Vettel first, but they can see the quality of Mark.

What I really hate, though, is that there are some people here who are just Mark haters and pretending to be Vettel fans to try to disguise it.

They're both damn good drivers, and both showed last year they have the potential to be title contenders this year if the car is competitive. We're all winners here, because RBR has a great driver line up and the battle between the two of them should be something worth following this year.

^ here here!

Unabashd Webber fan here, but the quality of Vettel cant be denied, so if Mark's running him close all year that will do for me. Vettel's certainly Red Bull's most likely championship challenger based on last year's form, but I wouldn't discount Webber making a run at the title now he's almost 100% fit.

What annoys me are the outside fans of other teams coming into this thread with personal agendas, whether that be to express their predictable outrage that Vettel's being mentioned in the same breath as.... omg... GOD Hamilton (sacrilege!!), or the longtime Webber-bashers who have hitched their cart to the Vettel bandwagon just to keep putting sh*t on Webber.

The genuine & balanced Webber & Vettel fans respect both drivers. Go RBR, go Seb, GO MARK!

There is alot of pointless fanboying in this topic but I guess that's the point of these vs topics right?

It's impossible to say where Vettel would be against Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher etc etc. Who would have thought Lewis would match Alonso in his first year? Who would have thought Massa could beat Kimi in a Ferrari? Who would have thought for the second half of last season Rubens could outqualify Button every time and battle for podiums or wins while Button is in midfield? Every set of rules is a different ballgame, every team is a different ballgame, heck even tyre brands make a big difference. Even brake brands are said to make a difference. Can't compare until the two drivers are in the same car.

From all indications Vettel seems to be on pace with anyone in F1. In the same league as Lewis, Alonso, Kubica etc etc.

His racecraft needs work. But Lewis fans shouldn't throw stones from their glass house, I've never seen Vettel or any of the other main guys put the car into the wall with an unforced error while in a podium position like at Monza last year. Lewis is a better overtaker then Vettel no question, but he also has a fair share of silly errors that cost big points. In racecraft, there's no way you'd pick Vettel over Alonso or some of the others. But he's young and has plenty of time to improve. He's not in a big hurry like Webber is. Webber's racecraft since 2006 has been really good. It's his pace this year that needs to lift. Never thought I would have been saying that a few years ago.

Bit of balance my a***. It looks to me like you either didn't read, or totally failed to understand the post that you replied to. Rather than trying to deflect the discussion to Hamilton you should try addressing the Vettel issues that were brought up.

Looks like I understood it perfectly, if your rather rude reaction is anything to go by.

Yes, good point. I think of all his years this one surely must be his most confident going in. For some reason I've always thought Webber as a more 'confidence driver' than Vettel. But that could be more my projection of some of his historical 'luck' and the assumption that in some ways Webber had his confidence eroded.

Thats what an 4WD head on will do to you....erode your confidence.

The injury excuse does not cut it.

Why was Mark driving better and more confidently in the early races leading up to his first win in Germany compared to the later half of the season when presumably his leg would have been in better shape yet his driving form dipped almost to the point of desperation at times ?

It WAS a bit of balance. With the logic of your arguement, (his MASSIVE experience) Massa was done for before he went to Ferrari. All that was argued is that maybe, just maybe, Vettel is still not to the peak of maturity. You seem to argue that last year was as good as it gets for him. Well I humbly disagree and I do so for the ignorance of my own opinion of Massa. I learned with him to not call it over so soon. Vettel has a lot of potential. If you do not agree, ok. But there is no need to berrate those of different opinion than yourself. Also, noone has EVER come into the sport as well intigrated with a team and all of it's cultures and workings as Hammy. I don't think anyone should use him as an example for why driver X is no good and cannot make it.

Sorry didn't mean to derail your thread, just wanted to inject a bit of reality into the discussion that started in another topic - before you rank young Seb alongside WDC's let's wait till he has one eh? If we're to believe the hype surely it's a guarantee for this season?

I'm not stupid enough to rank Lewis alongside Schumacher because I can see he hasn't achieved as much, shame some other driver fans aren't able to view things as they are in reality and not in fantasy-land

Like I said apologies for swaying OT a tad but come next weekend all the bullshit stops then we'll really see what's up

I see it as deflection off the real issue. Webbo is on the hot seat to deliver or be replaced. The injury excuse won't cut it this year. It's time to either put up or shut up. He is a GOOD driver but not great and that will be why RB send him off to retirement at the end of '10 IMHO. I hope I am wrong for I like his character. Not one of the PC boys!

I agree with the first part of your post but not the last.

Yes Mark is a good solid driver but does not display qualities that define the greats.
Mark will keep Seb honest this year which will probably be enough to give him another 1 year extension.
His problem will be that the points spread between he and Seb will become wider being dictated by the revised points regulations that will better reward drivers who are faster, more aggressive and take larger risks.

I would think the same usually. But the comment by DM leads me to the conclusion that the thought of replacing him is not off the table. They might put Buemi in the RB if he improves this year.

On the other hand you have the comments of Horner recently where when asked about their title chances this year he chose to pick out Mark as the driver to comment on. I suspect there's more than meets the eye to the testing times RBR were setting, and that Mark's actually been the quicker of the two ahead of the season.

It's either that or Horner is admitting - without admitting it - that Mark's injuries last year were a much bigger factor than anyone in that team admitted.

Anyway, just a quick reply to jez: I don't think Mark's confidence or driving was any worse in the second half than the first. The car was off for a few races (Seb did just as poorly), and there was a run of no scores that only the Webber haters can put Mark at fault for. Horner's taken the blame on the team for the Spa pit release, Monza was at worst a racing incident (my personal view is Kubica was at fault for the contact - unless Webber was supposed to cut the chicane to avoid him).