wow, no, you are speaking out of your rear end.





well done

It's a bit hard to compare Mark's single use of it last year (at the request of a photo journalist) with Seb's nauseatingly constant, belligerently aggressive and profoundly immature, self aggrandisement.

LMAO are you genuinely annoyed by this? I find that hard to believe man! seriously? lol

I think it's better just to ignore people like that. They are so focussed on negativity that it becomes their default state of mind.

Vettel got pole. you know - the guy with the new wing? You know - the guys who's broke on his car?
Don't make a dill of yourself.

I think Lleyton Hewitt is one of the worst sportsmen around!! I don't think you realise how many australians think he's an ABSOLUTE TURD. Vettels finger doesn't hold a candle to hewitts idiocy. Dont quite see the point of bringing him up though. Not much of a dare either!!! He's constantly made fun of for doing it in aus.

(on a side note hewitt is sueing a tiny aus clothing label for using "come on" as a brand name. what a tool, I don't think he's even trademarked it anyway, but he's dragging them thru the courts to make them broke) WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OT (sorry!)

If hock ends up being the same as canada and strategies come more into play...

If a driver feels they are having the wrong strategy forced on them, what would happen if they pitted when they thought it was right instead of the team? Has this happened much before?

pls I'm not trying to bring up the previous debate of webber in canada, altho I spose it is. I'm just curious of what may happen in this situation. You know what I mean!

I do not really see the point why people dislike the finger gesture *that* much as it just means that he got P1 at qualy/race. The discussion has certainly gone way too far.

Driver's don't know enough about the distances to be able to make such a decision. That's what their crew is for at RBR, and also what the tactical guys at RBR are supposed to do. The driver assists by communicating issues such as grip, but in fact the team knows that anyhow due to the telemetry. Drivers often contribute to calls about tyre grip though, for instance if its raining, whether they could stay out for a longer period of time. But even then, the driver would not know that the times being done by some other cars on different tyres might be ... the drivers are team dependent for tactical strategies.

that's what I thought and that's what you would think. but if a driver can see his own laptimes tumbling and pitted cars already catching him it would have to make him think about it, no? especially if bad strategy calls had been made in the same situation not that much earlier, and if you are paranoid about being a little disadvantaged here and there...

Great post - sums it up for me.

I can see it now that you quoted him.

I could possibly concede immature, arrogant and boastful, as he is a young adult who beat the best 20 drivers in the world and has cameras shoved in his face with 300 million spectators, but frequently unjustified? Not just occasionally unjustified, or sporadically unjustified? You go too far! Too far indeed. In fact it could be said you are finger pointing! How immature, arrogant, boastful and frequently unjustified of you!!

I think you just need a hug from Christian Horner and Adrian Newey.

To call Vettel arrogant really shows that some must be new to this sport. Young Schumacher or drivers like Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet would have make your head explode with some of their antics. Also shows a certain double standart or selective conciousness when coming from Hamilton and Webber fans.

MP was spot on, the driver reports how the car is behaving and what he thinks the tyres will do, and the team then runs their 10,000 iterations and may come back with a changed strategy.

Drivers would often override the team on pit calls in changing conditions, safety cars etc. but calling a strategy from the driver seat is rare.

ooops, meant to say he won the race.

so sorry.


ps. my mispost doesn't make Webber any less pathetic or juvenile!

Exactly - Vettel cant be a more gentler person if he tried.

Initially people saw the Finger as a caricaturist celebration (bordering on comical) done in good humor.. now after Webber & the team have this brouhaha going on - people suddenly see it as Arrogance. It about the fickle audience and Vettel is too stupid to realise that he should tone it down.

I think there is some definite projecting going on here. In Valencia, everything was fine and dandy with Webber after qualifying - except he lost pole to Vettel. Then he began behaving arrogantly, immature and nastily, when he ignored his team mate on national television afterward. Everyone else came through and at least gave a thumbs up, but Webber completely made himself look foolish, by behaving like a jerk. You just don't treat people that way in general - let alone people you actually know. This type of behavior, together with his midfield recklessness, is why I cannot support him. It isn't just his team mate, he has had no problem being rude and saying very nasty things about his co-drivers over the years - and he never apologizes for any of it.

Nonetheless, I think Mark has been a very bad team mate for a young, developing Sebastian to have. All the jealousy, pettiness and sour & dour behavior is unnecessary and just makes Webber largely unlikeable. His midfield driving is also a lesson in what not to do. So to me, Vettel would have been way better off with someone like Kubica or Raikkonen as a team mate. The object isn't to find a slow team mate you can beat, because pushing one another is good. It is finding one that doesn't go all emo both on and off the track, so you can actually learn from/with.

^^
what this guy said.
seems to me Webber is more arrogant and immature than Vettel.

I'd be quite impressed if you would genuinely welcome Kubica as a teammate for Vettel. It would be close, and I do think Vettel is a little bit quicker than Kubica, but I would make the Pole a slight favourite (55:45) in that fight because he seems to have stepped up his performance this season (albeit against a substandard driver who is no real benchmark) whereas Vettel seems to have gone backwards - assuming Webber is performing at the same level this season as he did last.

When's the next race??

Kubica would have turned the team upside down at the slightest hint of favoritism going towards the other guy... he's arguably one of the most ruthless teammate out there, very Alonso-ish.

As for Raikkonen, he doesn't give a sh*t.. so yeah I guess that would be a better example.

You still haven't grasped that Webber has earned the right, through his results on the track, to fight for himself and his position within the team.. in that sense I think he's the perfect teammate for Vettel, who doesn't need his head artificially inflated further so early in his career.

When Vettel convincingly beats a gritty Mark Webber over a season it means he'll have achieved something... beating an aging Webber who bends over for everyone isn't worth a damn.. thankfully neither is happening.

Such reactionary comments are worse than the people you criticise. Webber's not perfect behind - but have a look at the rest of the field. For instance, in the British GP, Alonso. And why not look at your hero's drive? I'll ignore the first corners, but at the end of the race, Vettel sat behind Sutil for lap after lap after lap, and then collided into Sutil, a move which he was lucky to escape from. Sutil said " then he just seemed to drive into me and I lost the racing line and had to move over into him in order to get by."Naturally, there's been no apologies from Vettel. But Vettel has made another on track enemy. And those are getting more and more out there. And yet at Silverstone, Vettel's car was three seconds a lap faster than Sutil was. But Vettel simply could not find a clean way past the young German. There was no doubt whatsoever that Sutil was the superior driver between those two at Silverstone, and but for Sutil's skill, Vettel would have taken them both out. Increasingly Vettel shows evidence of a driver who cannot control his " red mist " - time after time Vettel gets angry in the car, and then he makes significant mistakes. If Webber had driven that badly, you'd be moaning about it for the next month. If you pulled away from your bias for a minute a day, you might realise things are not as simple as the black and white view that your arguments increasingly portray.

Vettel finger on Saturday and Sunday please

Actually The Finger on Sunday is more than enough and much more satisfying if he finished what he couldn't in Turkey... Overtake Webber successfully on track.

Prolly Webber will cry about being overtaken while getting disorientated by the fan noise in Vettel's favor. Favoritism in yet another form!

no wonder mark want his wing back, its worth 7500 pounds
http://www.f1-247.com/items_sale.php?o=5&a...Range=&d=10

People are just looking for excuses to not like Vettel. It's pretty straight forward.

He's made one mistake so far this year, with the Turkey Incident.

Everything else that someone would say they don't like Vettel for is fan based hype.

People saying they don't like the finger is strange, it's just his version of a fist pump, he's excited because he won the race, I'm failing to see how one gesture like that makes him an arrogant, spoilt, stubborn ect. ect.

For example, Silverstone and the Clutch.

He didn't BLAME his team for the clutch. He said "I think we we're a little bit out of the window with the clutch. I had a bad start, Lots of wheelspin so I lost the immediate Pull away."

WHERE does he say "It was the team's fault for the start I had"?

He goes on to say, I think we tried a little bit to hard, but that's life, always trying to get the optimum. again, he's not blaming th team, he's saying that him and the team tried to aggresively on clutch setup. This is the guy that has the name's of his team and engineer's on his helmet ffs.

He then jokingly (keyword) talks about hamilton touching him.

People misconstrue what he says and blame him for being immature. He never blamed the team, he wasn't saying hamilton is deliberately trying to take him out of the race.

If you don't like him, that's fine. If you think he's immature and arrogant or whatever, that's fine too, your entitled to your opinion, but It's getting pretty annoying when I have McLaren and Hamilton Fans trying to impose their F1 Beliefs on me because I like the guy, and using stupid examples like Silverstone to back up what they are saying.

Long story short, If you want to try and prove to everyone that he's a Twat, get some decent evidence.

All I've seen from him this year, is smiling, laughing, joking and being a top quality F1 driver for the amount of age and experience he has. With the exception of Turkey, he's drived exceptionally well this season.

I am pretty sure that kimi is have much more fun being a logger in wrc atm than he would be having in F1 and imo kimi would be worse than mark as he does no media commitements, and ain't that good in testing from what i hear. Since MW does a heap of the media stuff then if kimi where there poor little vettel would have to do that and he might throw his toys out of his pram (literally)

Kubica has a nice team being built around him that is getting better and better each race, if they had someone like heidfeld instead of petrov i am pretty certain that they would be right behind ferrari in the WCC

I am a Webber fan and I would agree with that. That doesn't mean Webber wasn't mistreated, though.

I dont normally agree with you ....but this is spot on. MW was never going to accept being beaten by SV - whether or not the circumstances are fair or unfair. Unfortunately, the circumstances are unfair so most of us are sympathetic to a guy who normally does not deserve sympathy (and who probably wouldnt normally seek sympathy anyway... cause he's just that kind of guy). Its more of a pity because all Redbull had to do was stop SV's car breaking down and he would have been beating MW handily.

with due respect

in racing , you are overtaken in a rather clumsy way , what would you say about the overtake ? No good words about it i presume

oh they touched and it was clumsy , but it was nothing like he ran into him . He came in too hot , happens when drivers are 'trying ' .

Could it be that Sutil defended well ... that he couldnt get past him

he seemed to accept being beaten last ok though year didn't he? and what has he said about his previous team mates? (bourbon) Not trying to argue that one, I just didn't follow as closely back then so would like to know.

and jj I don't quite understand your post. the circumstances are unfair so most of us sympathise with a guy who normally does not deserve sympathy but wouldn't seek it anyway cos he's that kind of guy why does he normally not deserve sympathy, especially if nothing is going wrong. doesn't make sense. ha even when I try to ask a question about it I'm not saying he does, I just don't understand what you have written

None of the F1 drivers will accept getting beaten by their team mates. They are all ultra competitive animals, and would not be where they are if they did not have ballooned egos. Some just hide it better than others, and in fact if you were to compare Mark v Seb I think it is Seb that is actually the one that cannot accept getting beaten - this based purely on the post-beaten reaction, body language, comments, and the frequency of this post-beaten behaviour.

OK. I'm looking forward to the various excuses and explanations that are bound to come, telling me I'm wrong to see team bias in the emailed newsletter I received from Red Bull Racing today:




Perhaps I read it too quickly. Did I miss a mention of Webber in this newsletter? Or is it all about Petal?

Maybe he's "the winner of our holiday to Thailand"....

It is his home GP so kinda makes sense really.

What is Petal?

Oh come on. Nothing for the Webber fans? I sure as hell didn't sign up for the Princess.

Lol. Looks like this week's upgrade for Webber might give Petal a slight advantage

Why are you calling Vettel Petal and princess? Are you engaging in youthful name calling? Or is this a basic attempt to get a rise from his supprters? Either way, can you desist?

As a Webber fan, I find your insistence on using that name for Vettel really puerile. Grow up.

+1. Its really not important that he's not been mentioned, there probably was nothing going on that warranted him being mentioned individually, and of course there is going to be more PR focus on Vettel at his home Grand Prix, just like there probably was on Webber at the Australian GP.

Just a hint - if you stop calling Webber names such as 'Emo' for instance, it will add more weight to your request for people to stop calling Vettel 'Petal' and 'Princess'...

saying Webber is behaving Emo in the press and placing a hardship on Vettel thereby is one thing. Saying Vettel is behaving Petal makes no sense. I asked what it meant and got no response. It just sounds like name calling to me without any particlar purpose.

Calling Vettel "petal" is silly (I think he means pampered and so forth by that), but so is saying Webber is acting Emo. I presume you mean that he is feeling sorry for himself when you say that, but what he has actually been saying doesn't back that up.

Childish insults at either driver is silly in both cases.

I didn't use it as a nickname and would not. There is a big difference there. Saying Vettel is pampered would be fine. Done with topic now.

Of course Sutil defended well - his car was 3 seconds a lap slower than the RBR behind him. Sutil indicated that if he (Sutil) had not of moved his car, if he'd have stuck to his line, then they'd both have crashed out. Driver's remember that stuff, and one day, Seb may pay a price for that move. When it happens, remember back to 2010 Silverstone ...

quickly now, move along people, nothing to see here.......

ha you outmanouvered yourself and now you cant call him emo webber anymore. looked like you were starting to enjoy that one!

I don't see what's all the fuss with finger.

Thing that Vettel should be concerned about is that he is so far being beaten by a guy that was never considered top tier driver. In my view, so far the peak of Vettel's career has been Monza 2008. - everything else is sub-performance for someone regarded as top-tier.