So all of Webber's 75kg is in his butt? Poor lad.

I give up. Read Alfisti's links.

Come on, - give it a rest.

You're just winding people up here. No one could be as stupid as you are pretending to be.

The laws of physics dictate that changing mass distribution within a body will alter its dynamics.

If you seriously don't understand these simple concepts, you should probably do some reading.

OMFG, Start by removing Webber and Vettel from the driver light vs heavy equation and then rethink what you just said, making a point without the dislike of a driver might bring you back into our physical world.

All components act as if the mass is at the COG (with some inertia parameters sure) including the engine and driver, it's called physics.

COG is not fixed that's the point

Sounds like hubris to me.

Mark is stronger and fitter than Seb so he should have a physical advantage which is offset by the additional weight, though ultimately I doubt their differences in performance have anything to do with strength, stamina or weight.

Seb is just that little bit faster as a driver.

Last year Jenson had the advantage of being in the best car though, not just a better one.I still think you will find that Mark is a bit taller and wider.
Mark is at least 6.1"
Though Jenson did very very well ofcourse. Best driver in the best car that year and I hope he continues his efforts and results.

They are as near as damn it the same size. The RB was no slouch either, so again the too tall is a poor excuse, but to be fair I can't remember MW using it, it's just certain fans who churn it out.

I’am for sure not a poor lad, because i don’t have to look for excuses over and over again.

And who is talking about 75 kg, the official weight difference was 9 kg. But you possibly want to tell me, that all of the 9 kg are stuck in Webbers upper body.

And I’ am referring to this sentences

“Dead is not lighter than live weight but the last place you want weight in an F1 car is up high, as in a drivers upper body. You want weight (if youmust carry it) distributed low int he car where it helps balance.”

And I think, anyone is aware of the fact, that lower placed weight is better.

That was obviously not aimed at you but at Webber. Nothing personal towards you.


No, but some of it is. And that's the whole point.

And 75kg is Webber's full weight, hence I was talking about it.


D'oh!

Again, that's the point. The less upper body weight, the more lower placed ballast weight.

It’s not an advantage, that’s for sure. But does it affect lap times in a significant and relevant way, I doubt it.

Schumacher’s size for example is around 1,74 m and his weight is 75 kg. His Ferrari teammate Massa’s size on the other hand is around 1,66 m and his weight is 59 kg. (According to a statistic from 2005)

Although the weight difference is/was even bigger, i can’t even remember one single moment, Schumachers weight being an issue.

remember its not just how high the weight is, its front to rear balance, less weight equals more balast to play with, the tyre rules last rear favoured a forward weight ditribution, something harder to achieve with a heavier driver. this year that should be better though with the higher minimum weight and narrower front tyre.

which explains the shumacher thing too, the tyre rules left them with more to play with back then, it was a big issue last year when they took away the grooves and increased the contact patch of the fronts more than the rears

Which is exactly why they reduced the width of the fronts this year.

Calling all German Vettel supporters to come balance out the endless propaganda and personal attacks from the Webber brigade.

I my opinion Webber doesn't stand much chance against Seb. I believe like in 09 Webber will be soundly beating in qualification and overall Seb will finish ahead in more races. If Seb cuts out the mistakes, he will dominate Mark in my humble opinion.

That second part is unlike '09 ;) Excluding Hungary, Europe, Italy and Singapore, Webber finished ahead 7 times to 6 ;)

And excluding all the races except Germany and Brazil he won two more races than Seb.

^ you catch on fast!

A single lap of Donnybrook and a few beers after at Sables would settle this argument :-)

I just re-read all of the posts in this thread from this month and can't see any evidence of the "endless propaganda and personal attacks" to which you refer.

Forgive me being obtuse, but I can only assume that was sarcasm?

No it's because we are already up to something like 6 moderations in 10 pages! Maybe we should change the thread title to something like: "The Mark Webber appreciation (and they are facts, not excuses, you @#$*!%) thread 2010".

Well someone looks hurt.

Relax, we're not attacking your wunderkind at all.

There's nothing wrong with the discussion in the last pages compared to the thread title.

I see.

Well I only went back to the beginning of this month and perhaps I missed the subsequent comments because they were modded-out before I saw them.

I guess wherever there's blatant trolling, you'll find passionate rebuttal, - it's the INTERNET!

Right, in the case of Vettel, there are 9 kg more movable ballast to play with. Never said otherwise. In a posting on Jul 20 2009, i said for example

“And it was never denied, that Webber has less moveable weight on his car to play with, what could make it a little bit harder for him to set up the car perfectly.”

But this was not exactly what I got, reading his posting about the vertical position of the “upper body”. A misunderstanding possibly.

About the higher minimum weight of 620 kg. Minimum weight is the car with driver, additional ballast but without fuel. I was reading somewhere, that the basis weight of the 2010 cars could be up to 25 kg heavier than the basis weight of the 2009 cars.

The reason is, that the cars are larger and wider (= additional structure). Because they start with around 80 -90 kg more weight (additional fuel), they have to use more robust suspensions, and so on.

Although the minimum weight is now 15 kg higher, this 15 kg could be eaten up by a higher basis weight of the car. That means that the movable ballast could remain the same.

I excluded the four races where they had two DNFs each, 1 from contact and one from a reliability issue. We can count them if you reaaaally want, but it changes nothing from my original post - Webber: 9, Vettel: 8.

Not likely some of the weight may be taken up by additional structure to fit in the extra fuel but that isn't really the point and this year isn't really an issue for Webber, the whole question of driver wieght was brought on by how much of the cars weight was getting taken up by a potential KERS fit. Now this isn't being fitted to cars the window for a drivers weight is broader than it was a year ago with KERS.

I don't know why this argument has started for this year as I think it will mean little. The problem last year was Newey thought it would be hard to implement KERS and fit Mark in the car with any playable ballast there was some conjecture that Mark may have to driver over 605kg with the system fitted regardless, which is not a reflection of how heavy Mark is but the inability of RedBull to build a car that could fit all the design parameters.

This year shouldn't be an issue though again Seb has more movable ballast to play with than Mark and all lighter drivers get this small advantage over their heavier team mates.

I think, this isn’t the point either. This is a discussion about the movable ballast, fitted in the car to get the minimum weight. And because Vettel is 9 kg lighter, there will always be 9kg more moveable ballast to play with, of course.

That Webber was carrying additional weight, that even lifted the car weight over the minimum weight limit was discussed in the “Is Webber carrying more weight?“ thread. But this is another story.

I didn't mean to start an argument, I just stated that theoretically and all other things being equal a smaller lighter driver would have a slight advantage over a taller heavier driver even with the increased weight of the cars this year.

But as you say any advantage is probably very slight and will make 5/8ths of f*ck all difference in the real world...

It's exactly what I am talking about, the lack of movable ballast was not because Mark was heavier it was because the car could have been innately heavier leaving Mark on the verge of not being able to sit in the car with any movable ballast, which is a part of balancing the car during setup. Seb had more margin because he was lighter. Newey stated is as one of the reason they were not going to fit the Kers to the car as despite the possible performance advantage they may loose it in the inability to setup the car especially Marks. Now that there isn't a impost on this ballast and the car is now actually heavier by regulation there will be plenty of ballast for both to play with however Seb will have more.

So with a normal car that is very much underweight its not much of an issue.

With last years car fitted with KERS it was going to be an issue.

This years cars will again not be an issue.

2009 proved to me that Mark is an outstanding driver, but unfortunately. he doesn't have that undefinable 'it' that will get him the WDC. There were too many occasions last year when he could/woulda/shoulda done better. I can't substantiate anything, so flame me all you like, but there is an old military adage that says: Never trade luck for skill. Mark has always been unlucky.

I hope I'm wrong because I think he has the speed and skill.

Button doesn't have the 'it' imo either , but he won a title. If there's enough of a car advantage, Button proved that any monkey on the grid could win the title.

So, the fact that Vettel is lighter than Webber explains why Vettel has 5 wins and 119 points in 2 years of F1 driving while Mark has 2 wins and 169 points in 8 years.

No.

Yip, it´s all down to the weight of his dingle dangle, which, if he gets an errection during a race, will shift the weight a bit higher and cause him to get beaten.
Elementry my dear Watson.

First of all, I’m not the one who brought it up and i never said that it will be an issue this year.
In the contrary, i’ am not even thinking, it was a big deal last year, because they were not running KERS. You should address your postings to the right persons.

And this a quote from Webber before the start of the 2009 season about running KERS, what they didn’t. Doesn’t sound overdramatic at all.

“Mark Webber fears that one of the consequences of the introduction of KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) next season will be that Formula One's heavier drivers will be put at a disadvantage. With KERS weighing between 25 and 60 kilogrammes, there will likely be less available ballast for teams to move around their cars to help with weight distribution.
And Webber believes that such a circumstance will make it harder for heavier drivers to achieve an optimum weight distribution for their car.
Speaking to autosport.com about the penalties for heavier drivers, Webber said: "It's certainly not going to be an advantage. I'm not exactly fat, but unfortunately it looks like the guys on the heavier side could potentially find it more difficult.
"It will depend on things like tyre choice, but if you're lighter you might have more choices.
"The guys who are in the mid-70s (kg) might find it tougher than the guys in the mid-60s. This shouldn't be used as an excuse, though. The weight distribution could turn out to be absolutely perfect once the car is designed. It is just there's less scope for the heavier guys."
The Australian reckoned it could be the first time in two decades that a driver's weight has an impact on lap times.
"It's an unusual situation," said Webber. "I've not really suffered because of weight since karting, but next year could be the first time since the 1980s that guys that are heavier are penalised by it."

I am thinking, that whole weight issue is totally blown out of proportion.

I am now thinking someone doesn't that's about all I have gleaned from two pages of shite on this matter, enough Vettel will again be faster than Mark the reason wont be weight the reason will be that Vettel is simply the better driver, my last contribution to this farce thread until I summarize at the end of the year.

Better? How? And mention that Webber's flying lap on final day in Barcelona is quicker than Vettel's.

Well, whatever you say.

You really dislike Webber don't you?

Those facts are irrelevant anyway regardless of who's heavier (ofcourse). Mark has had one season in a car capable of winning a race. It really pisses me off when people compare statistics like that... between any drivers. Statistics get thrown around F1 and you can use them to prove anything...fourfteen percent of all people know that. The "fact" is that while past results may give an indication on who is better than who, there are way too many variables to claim anything as fact.

Right here, right now, who is the better driver? They are only as good as their last race (read: current form) so right now it's Vettel. In 2 weeks time Mark could have the upper hand.

Despite being heavier, which means he's a lot better than he would be if they weighed the same. Good work Mark!

So apparently Webbo either sucks or is god. Ok, how bout this. How is Webbo any different than Heidfeld? Consistant and in front of his teammate most all the time. Yet one is out of a drive and the other in a top team? I don't dislike Webbo. He seems a very down to earth guy. Up for a few beers with the boys. Am I completely nuts for seeing his as a good, consistant SECOND driver who can bring it home when opportunities fall, but lacking that extra IT factor to keep him from tier one status???

That sums up my feelings as well, though i'd back Webber in a fast car over Heidfeld. I think he's quicker over a lap by a smidgen but Heidfeld sitting out the year is outrageous given his pedigree.

Webber could be a #1 driver in practically any of the other teams. It´s just a pity that at the moment he´s paired with the fastest driver in F1, that´s all.

Except McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull.

Well, yes. But I wouldn't say it was a pity. He's liking it i imagine. A superb car, a fast teammate to live up to... As long as he keeps up with Vettel (sort of), which I think he will and think he did in a way last year.... he's going places....

I mean he's at the height of his career so far... and he could really show something this year...

I'm going to hold you to that...

And Renault perhaps

LOL No he wouldn't. He's what we call 'experience over skill'.

He has experience in an F1 car and naturally means he will be more comfortable in his working environment, but in terms of talent and skill I could name 40-50 drivers that have more.

Oh, WE do, do WE. LOL. You got a canary in your pocket?