7 hrs ago I have posted precisely the same sentiment at another thread; his future is not shaping well with this team. If it is not Webber's ego, than a car won't work 100%, etc.

Just saw this quote from Leggard's Twitter posted on the BBC page:
"How has Mark Webber celebrated his victory? With a packet of crisps! Told his mechanics unfixed his front wing and waved it at Vettel's team"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/default.stm
All I can say is ouch!!! That's not going to ease tensions at Red Bull at all!

I meant he needs to get out because of the image they are giving him and the kind of person they are turning him into. Would be great to see him under frank and head at williams if they had a competitive car. thats the old school sh*t haha

hahaha hey seb have u ever heard of a donkey punch???

I suspect it happens at nearly every race.

And How ? is the part you missed...

You must really, really, really love Vettel. A driver is not happy with the decision that his team took, but before he complains he must consider how that would look on his team mate? Not to mention the fact that Mark has not made any comments regarding Vettel....

Andrew Bensons column is a perfect summation of events. Just look at that photo- the expresion on MW's face, the jaw sticking out on SV', the stare from the mechanics behind MW, and the smarmy gutless smirk on AN face. This is a F1 team in trouble.
Ron Dennis couldnt control the Senna/ Prost and Alonso / Hamilton feuds and he had more brains in his little finger than the nude model has between his ears. Horner has clearly lost control due to lack of effective management.
MW has taken all that RBR have thrown at him so he should be able to hit the German media for six in a fortnight.

So, ah, is the chassis still a dud? Seemed pretty alright to me.

Good point.
After looking at the race photos, I really can't notice a difference among both wings.
I read JA analysis too.

The fact is Newey dedicated resources [time + $] to make the new wing - by some driver request, I suppose.
One of them had a fabrication problem and broke, but Newey insisted on testing the wing.
So to attend the star designer, RedBull had to race the wing.

IF the wing was made by Vettel request, it is logic for him to have it.
IF Vettel is considered the best car developer, it is logic for him to have it.

I think it would be easy for Horner to say that Newey wanted the wing tested and that Vettel is the best tester, but it would be a not necessary ofence to Webber.

But if Horner said is true, that in four years in the team, it is the first time it happens [different equipment], Webber has no right to say that there is an NOT EQUAL #1 driver policy in the team or say that RedBull is giving an UNFAIR treatment to an Australian citizen or the team LIED to him when renewing.
Those are accusations that the well paid employee is publicly making against him employer.

Rossi managed to keep the wall down the middle of the garage, even when Lorenzo started to use the same brand of tyres...

So, is this rivalry gonna go as sour as Jones/Reutemann, or as bad as Piquet/Mansell, or as furious as Senna/Prost?

it's different though it really is more like webber v red bull than webber v vettel

It can't be - it is Red Bull v. Mark - not Vettel v. Mark - even if Mark tries to drag Vettel into it, he's not taking the bait. Not much animosity can form if Vettel gives way on the tarmac so as to avoid another Turkey and refuses to be drawn into a slag match at the invitation of reporters...

As for company v. driver. I find it hard to imagine RBR letting it go on. Ferrari, Macca and Renault have already shown how teams can easily whether moral disapproval. Red Bull doesn't really like to have that image, but it would be better to have it all go up in smoke quickly and air out - than having Webber go on deriding the company for months. Let's see what they do. There might be other problems now too - like Horner and Vettel (I still get the feeling he was the Mr. true face Vettel referred to - just a guess). So it is a mess, but not the on road type - rather the in garage type and mostly I would say between drivers and bosses.

How is it that Mark has driven for a number of teams and was always highly regarded? How is it that Frank Williams made the comment recently about being very impressed with Mark and did underestimate him when he drove for them. His comments also mentioned his always having time for the fans even at airports etc. But as I mentioned earlier Bourbon you just waffle on as I can assure you if MW reads it, it will just make him more determined as he showed the world on Sunday.

Vettel isnt an innocent party in all this.

He is a snide little prick and i wouldnt be surprised if he demanded the wing of Webbers car.After all,when all things are equal Webber is more than a match for him it seems.

He needs every advantage he can get.

Sorry, not true.

It was all solved with the most advanced logic.
I have credible sources that RedBull presented both wings to Paul, Ze German Octopus.
Paul is the one that chose the new wing to Vettel.

This was a screenshot from the BBC who compared the two. The one above is the new wing and the one below is the old one. The new one has two slots on the end plate instead of one, and the new one also removes the cameras from either side of the nose cone. I'm sure there were other subtle differences but these were the two noticable ones.

Thank you Canadablue.

But still...

but still what?

2 down one to go huh? I mean if Webber wins Monza, he would have won the big three this season. Monaco Silverstone and Monza Bah I'd be surprised if a Macca didn't win Monza actually though, but it's nice to wish lol

I feel the same, I don't think Horner is dumb enough to create a situation like this himself, probably Vettel and some calls from Austria forced his hand.

Snide ,thats a good word you don't hear anymore,but as much as i want Mark to win the WDC i think Seb. is just as committed,its typically Old Bull v Young Bull(sorry) and i'm sad to say the young Bull usually wins in the end,i just hope Mark has a WDC in him before that happens and i'm sure Horner in his heart feels the same way and is doing his best to give mark a fair go despite having Marko. breathing down his neck.
Going to be a great 2nd half to the season,Bernie must be rubbing his hands with glee,all he needs now is a competitive Female driver on the grid and a US based team.

This is patently untrue when you consider the actions of Pilbeam his engineer and MW's support team. You will find the MW is very highly regarded in the pitlane, do you honestly think the same would be said about Vettel? Look at the public and professional support for MW at this time. Look at the public and professional support for MW after turkey.
If you are brave enough do a poll on this site and wait for the results.

Thanks for that,i know they are taken at different parts of the track,but comparing them side/side there seems to be some subtle(as you said) angle changes with the nose and surrounds. Horner apparently admitted to the BBC(anyone clarify?) its an "slight improvement/advatage over the 'old' one"

You have zero evidence that Vettel had anything to do with the decision.

Sounds like a witch hunt to me.

I didn't say I have evidence, we don't have evidence of the contrary either. But isn't it strange that there's a sudden breakdown in the relationship between Webber and Horner, and Horner looks like he's trying screw Webber. Why is he doing that? Doesn't matter to him who sells more energy drink, does it?

backstabbing, yeah sums up Webber for me

It is interesting to note listening to the BBC it is pretty clear DC has a lot of respect for his former team mate and rival Mark, DC and Adrian Newey are well known to be mates, DC obviously also gets on well with Christian Horner, draw your own inferences.

Vettel obviously is a very talented driver and future WDC but Red Bull (ie Dr Marko) are taking the wrong course with him, even after Mark is retired it will cause them problems.

Dr No ie Helmut Marko holds the real power in the Red Bull garage.

What about Spa?

I wouldnt be suprised if MW's outspoken approach is counselled by DC. Ill bet that with hindsight DC would love to have taken the same approach during the Hakkinen saga, and watching MW get the chance to speak up against a similar injustice is pleasing DC no end.

DC never did get another chance at it... and next year most of the pack will have cottoned on to Red Bulls tricks and caught up so the time is right here, right now for Webber. And he is going for it using the entire arsenal.

DC wasnt Webber's biggest fan before they drove together, i think it was Turkey 05 he had a bit of an outburst directed Webber's way after the race. Perhaps that changed after they drove together though. Perhaps DC is simply supportive of somebody, who like he was at the end of his career, had to cop the wrong end of Helmut Marko.

lol believe it or not, I had forgotten about Spa! yes that too, the big 4 then

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-...o-201007122898/

Mate,that was bloody funny i had a hearty laugh.

Mark drove a very good race at Silverstone and nailed the first corner, i bet he went through that scenario so mant times before sunday.
Seb tried the old squeeze trick but he should know by now that webber wont lift or budge if it comes down to it.
And i love the "not bad for a number 2" quip at the end. Shows he won't bow under to the pressure being exerted by upper management. I wonder how many drivers have wanted to have the balls to say that at some point in their career.
I like is honesty and by putting it out there it puts pressure back on RBR to be fair.
Seb made a good charge from the back although it was heavily assisted by the safety car. He did struggle once he got up against some quicker cars and im afraid he still needs to stop leaning on other cars to overtake.

I'm wondering whether something else has gone on between Webber and Seb that has led to the deterioration in their relationship.

People talk about PR and stuff, but their relationship before Turkey was fantastic, or at least much, much better than today.

They would embrace when the other won or at least acknowledged the others performance and they seemed to genuinely get on - I remember specifically after Monaco where Vettel went over and embraced with Webber for example.

Compare this to when Vettel offered his hand to congratulate him on his victory yesterday - Webber was not going to shake it, then it seemed the PR stuff kicked and he did, but his face was full of bitterness.

The thing that goes with this is Vettel's comments about Webber's status within the team:



'What happened in the past'.

'See their true faces.'

For me, there are two possibilities.

1. When Vettel went alongside Webber in Turkey, then got half a car length in-front, it was with the understanding of a team agreement between the pair of what would happen next in that situation, which was that the defending driver backs off, and the leading gets the space. If you look at other instances between the pair, there has always been more room given, both when Vettel is attacking, like in Malaysia, and when Webber is, like in China at the start. Vettel gave room yesterday when racing Webber also.

Vettel sees that in Turkey, and here we are. The difference of opinion spoken of post Turkey comes because Vettel understood there was an agreement, whilst Webber thought he was being screwed over by the team, so broke it understandably. This may have been why Horner was saying move on the radio, and subsequently after says that more room should have been given.

Of course, though, Horner could have just wanted Seb past, and Vettel just thought he owned the track, which brings me to:

2. Vettel is the new Schumacher in one sense - winning at all costs. Vettel just clearly thinks he made no mistake in Turkey, and thinks nothing of taking Webber's wing and enjoys/supports/doesn't mind Marko's ideas. This is why Webber now really dislikes him and cannot stand him. This is supported by his sometimes cocky attitude and petulence, and snide remarks, but they could just be poor attempts at humour and making light of situations and a result of his youth contrariwise, he's not the first driver of his age to do it.

However, on every occasion Vettel has made a significant mistake in the past whilst racing which has cost the other massively, he has apologised. He apologised to Kubica after Melbourne for example after his mistake in miscalculating the amount of understeer he would have. But contrariwise, it could be has now dropped that approach and feels he needs to portray a different attitude.

To go with the former though, there is his comment about people showing their true faces and now focusing on himself after the past. Could be he is just beefing up the story for the press though.

Either way, something has changed and more so than just their crash in Turkey, and I don't see how the relationship can be repaired, which in the end I think is going to cost RBR big time.

Indeed it is funny! I love humour!

Nice post SK.

"The controversy started before the Silverstone race when Webber's car was stripped of 90% of its parts to make an amusing sculpture for Vettel's dressing room. But the Australian won the race despite his car consisting of a chassis, three wheels and a wing mirror."

OMG

The quote under the picture gave me a good chuckle as well as referring to EJ as the miniature racing pundit.

We only know what Mark and Horner tell us. They are the only one's talking - and their stories don't contradict either. Both rendering a public image of Sebastian that is contrary to all we know about him.

Did Horner really think he was pulling a slick one when he said that he made the decision to change the wing over - based on 12 champ points and a FP where the two were terribly close in time? Did he think it went unnoticed that he slipped in the fact that both drivers had tried the wing and while both liked it, one of them had shown a special preference for it. And when asked which driver that was, he replied: "that driver was Sebastian" Is there any better way of saying "what Sebastian wants, Sebastian gets"? Oh - except of course the wing was on Mark's car - so I guess that little inuendo fails once reality is taken into account. But that of course is only if one continues to think about it - which the reporter doing the interviewing did not - or found he had a better story if he didn't follow that final bit of logic and include it.

What is funny is that I kept asking people on here for a link to where Christian said it was already on Mark's car. And there was none. Only the reporters were relaying that piece of information in a completely different context (taken from Mark's car and placed on Sebastians - never why it was on Mark's car in the first place which is what Christian was addressing timewise with his statements). Perhaps Horner was convincing to someone out there, but I would like to know why the wing was on Mark's car, seeing as Sebastian had a preference for it - and why he felt he needed to relay that information at all if he wasn't going to explain the situation in full. I am figuring Mr. True faces wasn't a reference to Webber at all...

Maybe he's running a racing team trying to win a WDC/WCC combination . . . . just food for thought.

I dunno, I think he meant it about webber. I think it's possible webber just used this as ammunition against the unfair treatment he has received as a whole, when the wing may not have been that much of a help anyway. It's possible webber didn't like the front wing as much as vettel, but caused a stink over it to get a point across. Which is why vettel called him 2 faced. Just a guess though, but that's what I reckon.

If I were webber I'd be using any ammunition I could find. he has to.

From my own life I know too well how answers are formed when one is in a hurry and has more than one issue on his mind. It is for that reason why I would give gladly anyone around pitwall and/or in the garage a benefit of doubt during racing times, before I would decide to call them Two-faces person. Webber however has done couple of things which are very suggesstive of premeditated act, rather than spontaniety. What makes me most angry, how Autosport, together with others, with exuberance of tabloids exploring those situations, and steering vitriol as much as it will go. In final analysis, is it good for F1? I doubt it.

Maybe, but I am convinced it was Horner. The guy seriously made Vettel look like a spoilt brat who gets whatever he wants - Mark's comments just reinforce that even if he did so quite innocently - trying to force a point against the bigwigs at RBR. But note, neither of them explain why the wing wasn't on Sebastain's car in the first place (since the spoilt brat gets whatever he wants as secret driver #1 - and he wanted that wing). This is what I was saying yesterday. Vettel gets the collateral damage and I feel like Horner/Webber think that is fair because he would get any benefit of Mark being a secret #2. But the problem is, as shown in my current example with the wing, it isn't going like that in reality - where Sebastian says "I like!" and it appears on his car. It was on Mark's car. Then Horner made a decision about it - then Horner revealed everything to the press. Then Mark went to the press angry as heck.

I aint much of a mathematician, but I can put 2 and 2 together.

sorry I dont understand wht you are trying to say. why would they have to explain that it wasn't on vettels car in the first place? what do u mean?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85247

I'm pleased to see that Vettel is keeping it classy and refusing to rise to the bait that Webber's side of the garage are trying to lay for him and the Red Bull management.

Webber is not being classy and he will regret it. If he thinks that whining in public is going to anything except decrease his chances of winning the title, or even beating Vettel at the end of the season, he is greatly mistaken. Just look at what happened to Alonso in 2007. Moral victories are not written in the history books.