Give it 10 years and I reakon he may be in the discussion.

The ignore function works well.

There's very little Webber could have done in that incident with Kubica. To call it a 50:50 incident displays a stunning lack of knowledge about motor racing, the laws of physics and/or common sense.

Pretty much we've come to expect really...

Kubica tries to fit a 1.8 metre wide car into a 0.5 metre gap, and it's 50/50.

....and don't quote Robert when he admits the mistake When we were going into the first apex unfortunately again I was not able to avoid him.
We get very different statements from drivers when they're not at fault.

...and I've got the still of Alonso missing the corner at Monaco by about 10 metres at MWs first attempt to overtake Alonso - so don't start on that one either princess.

....Oh why not get in early this year.

I guess it was inevitable but can we try to stay on 2010.

What I wanted to prove is that even though Webber has a much greater experience in F1 driving, he was left behind by Vettel after three seasons. I don't remember Webber having a car that's not able to win races in the last two years and yet Vettel scored more than twice as many wins. It's obvious. Webber is someone like Irvine, fast and good for wins if he has a fast car but he's not the one.

No sh!t Sherlock - we're not saying he's 'the one' either. But your argument is flawed. BTW I don't remember RBR having a car capable of wins in 2008...

They had the car, just not the engine!

docronzo I appreciate the effort to join the discussion but the stats you posted just don't tell anything. For example lets substitute Alonso for Webber:

first year
Vettel 12th
Alonso 22nd

seccond year
Vettel 8th
Alonso - demoted to test driver

third year
Vettel 2th
Alonso 6th

They are bogus stats, you need to look closer into each season to pull the performance of the driver from it.

Too true...

Correct analysis of the analysis

You can put his mistakes down to inexperience which i would imagine if he will improve upon, however more important is out and out speed and Webber can't rely upon Vettel making mistakes

Fuel adjusted Vettel was 0.14s quicker and beat Webber 11-3

As a close pair yes but is Vettel at the same level as MS, Alonso or Lewis?

You think he had a dominant car in the second half of last season?

You know i rate Webber but the Red Bull was one hell of a car, thats why most of the teams have been copying it this year

I think most people think that Webber deserved a WDC capable car and last year he got it but he didnt win, and to boot he got beat by his teammate. I know there's quite a few people that believe put MS, Lewis or Alonso in last years Red Bull and they win the WDC, Button was there for the taking in the second half of the season.

I don't see why Webber deserves to be WDC, its there to be won not given, if he can win it without a car advantage i'll take my hat off to him

It's the same problem with a lot of drivers, like Heidfeld and Fisichella, or even Barrichello. They all looked like doing an amazing job in some bad cars from time to time and when they finaly had a top car, they failed comparatively to their teammates. It usually turns most of the fans around very quickly. Webber looked more impressive during 2003-2004 than last year. He indeed did a damn good job in 2009, but in last years Red Bull, who wouldn't?

He made contact with a few cars last year due to his own doing if you're going to be that agressive don't be surprised if you post DNF's due to incidents

You can watch it on Formula1.com. You can see Webber cutting across Kubica's nose and catching the front wing. Not saying it was deliberate, it would be next to impossible to see Kubica there but he clearly has gone into the corner too deep and then tried to rectify the problem. It's worth noting that it was the left hand side of Kubica's front wing that was damaged. if he'd've turned into Webber it would've been the right hand side which was damaged because that's where the Redbull was. Webber lost his line, then cut across to try to get back on track clipping the left hand side of Kubica's wing with his left rear spinning himself into the gravel. a 'racing incident' but you'd have to say webber was at most fault.

OK I guess we are staying with 09... By the way Yorkie you can click quote on each post then reply once.

He clearly rammed Rubens @ Germany but which other incidents was he at fault for? Rubens (@ Melbourne), Kimi and Robert ran into the back of him.

I don't know if Webber is WDC material but he is an elbows out kind of racer like JPM and F1 needs these kind of guys for entertainment. IMO he had best overtake of the year @ Spain restart on Alonso (yes Jez, it was a re-pass). Best overtakes in the wet of the year @ Sepang and China and best defensive driving of the year @ Abu Dhabi on Jenson.

How many DNF's did he have last year due to collisions of his own making?

Apart from the Kubica incident which im not sure about then none, however he took out Kimi and Lewis and got penalised for driving into Rubens

Hang on - earlier your saying the fault lies with Webber for the Kubica incident yet now you're also blaming Webber for taking out Hammy?

When the car was average both drivers were average, when there was a wide gap in performance it was usually down to driver/engineer error or in Vettels case broken cars as well. I think both drivers got a lot out of the car and I don't think the Redbull lull post Hungary was down to just the drivers the car sucked there for a while and both struggled to get it to work. Only team in recent history that blew a WDC was McLaren 2007 what those goons were thinking is anyone's guess.

Brawn stopped development on their car "early" in the season because Ross viewed their lead to be substantial enough to justify development shifting to the 2010 car. That is the only reason Red Bull caught Brawn toward the end of the season. Red Bull continued development, Brawn (essentially) did not. The idea that Red Bull had a championship winning car last season is false and entirely excludes Brawns efforts - or lack thereof.

Where did i blame Webber for the Kubica incident?

They stopped development for a while, the Red Bull was a competive car throughout the season, apart from 1 or 2 races good enough for podiums, in many races good enough to win, there's only 2 points between 1st and 2nd and Rubens was nowhere in the first part of the season, you only have to see what Lewis did with the McLaren in the 2nd half of the season to realise whats possible with a competive car allbeit not the fastest car.

I think you'll find from the German GP onward that Lewis was driving a car that was quite different in it's level of performance.
Average qualy before Germany was 14, average after it was 5th....and that includes his 17th in the wet in Brazil! Not the same car, by any stretch of the imagination.
Hamilton may have been driving the fastest car from Hungary onwards.........and I've never read anywhere that this was included as a factor in Red Bull not catching Brawn.
Just because Heikki was a no-show all season - it shouldn't have distracted people from the performance of the McLaren itself. If anything, I would say that Brawn was the leader in the first half and McLaren in the second - Red Bull were there, or thereabouts everywhere (almost!).

Hamilton's qualy stats are a surprise - to say the least .....and I'm glad you raised the point - it gave me a very different perspective on part 2 of the season.

Care to elaborate and provide evidence to back this up?

Mark had a lean patch of 4 races where he didn't score points which I have mentioned previously, due to mainly things out of his control unlike Seb who crashed numerous times. Both of them if everything went right had a chance for WDC so no good pointing the finger at one particular driver. Anway RBR were pretty lucky that Brawn had a slow patch in the second half of the year otherwise Button would have walked in the championship.

Does it really matter? It was about 11-3 fuel adjusted BTW.

Do you think Webber dropped the ball on qualifying compared to his previous record or was he just as fast and Seb quicker?

I really have no idea but it was damn impressive from the youngster.

Well evidence helps but I've looked it up and yes its correct but alot of the time when they both made Q3 they were quite close which hardly equates to being destroyed by Vettel as some people make out. If you look at purely that figure you could reach that conclusion but what I am trying to say is when you look closer it was not like Mark was smashed. Anyway why are we arguing about qualifying? The race is the most important aspect and both guys did a good job last year. You could even argue Mark was the better driver during races last year as he made less mistakes. Either way they both have thier strengths and weaknesses and it will be great to see how they go this year.

If MW or SV had had a team mate as sub par as LH did. they would have had the WDC wrapped up

In most cases when MW or SV came in with a win the other was not far behind
Unlike JB who had a very under performing RB to contend with for more than 7 of the early races
and LH who when he finally had a fast car may as well not had a team mate at all.

The ONLY reason an RBR driver DIDNT win the WDC is they were so evenly matched (contrary to what many people here seam to think)

As for the Q stats, Fuel really makes it hard to tell.
But as a MW fan I am willing to bet SV wiped the floor with him, but only by a small margin in each Q
Anyone following qualifying closely and who has followed MW over the years would have seen the mistakes he made.
Consistently he would drop 0.2-0.4s in one or two sectors on his final run.
When we were lucky enough to see the runs it was hard to miss his mistakes.

This is NOT consistent with any other year in F1 for MW.
You could argue it was the pressure of having a fast team mate.
However when he was so far of his Q2 time I suspect it was more to do with his difficulties on fresh rubber and heavy fuel that often effected his out laps.

Some here have suggested the new Q format will help MW and I hope they are right.
What worries me is that if he had trouble last year on Heavy fuel, how is he going to hand having a whole race load of fuel on board at the start.

For that matter... how is SV going to deal with tyre wear when the car is so heavy (considering this was a problem for him last year)

yeah I thought Mark has done some very good stints on a heavy car especially in races last year. he did some really consistent stints q few times after the first pit stop being long fuelled so I'm hoping it will be to his advantage this year. Seb did have issues with tyre wear on a heavy car as seen in Monaco,so it will be very interesting to see what happens. I just wish it would hurry up and start. All this suspense is killing me!!

"Fuel corrected Vettel was faster 10-7 in qualifying, which isn’t as dominant as people make out." http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/my-t...he-2009-season/

Q2 times in 2009 were 7-7

No evidence to suggest that a heavy fuel load will affect Webber - look at his long middle stint in Turkey for one example....

I read somewhere last year that what hit Webber in qualifying was basically the differences in how the slick and grroved tyres before. If that`s him not being able to adapt, I guess we can say he wasn`t up to his usual standards. But I also think he just met a guy who way faster than anyone he has ever been up against.

I had also read this.
It was just opinion (as most of this is)
It was not a comment or report form the team or MW

I dont think they are right. If they were he would have had trouble in Q2 and Q1 which he didnt (more often than not he was faster than SV in Q1 and Q2)

As to your final point...
I think there is not doubt that MW has never had a team mate as fast as SV.

I think we will know within one or two races if it was the tyers or some other factor (like the weight distribution or his injury or the car in general)
As all other factors have altered this year
He will be fit.
He will not be penalised by the weight distribution.
With a full winter program he should have enough time to develop set up strategies.

Cant wait... roll on race 1

Anyone wants to throw JV in the mix?

The Red Bull is designed for Vettel so I'd be suprised if Webber can match him. Last year he was recovering from a broken leg so not really a fair comparison.

But Vettel will beat him this season.

Then Sebastian Bourdais must be one heck of a driver since he outperformed Vettel a couple of times

If Webber didn't have a broken leg, things would have probably looked alot different.

This is clearly nonsense. The races where Vettal ended directly behind Webber would only have gained him 5 points, not enough to win the championship. If the RBR was truly a championship winning car then the only reason they didn't win is because the drivers did not do a good enough job, not because they took points off of each other.

Oops... My bad.

Sorry - it was late when I posted and I must have mixed you up with someone else.

I'll get my coat...

Unlike some I try to look a little deeper than just the numbers.
Whilst you are correct in saying the total points SV lost due to having a capable team mate was not enough to give him the WDC (it was in fact 7 points for SV or 6 for MW)
The team did not have a definite No1 driver and as many SV fans will attest, had they given him that status he would have had better results in several races.
Unlike LH who was the undisputed No1 at McLaren and was treated accordingly (I have no issue with this)
RBR compromised both MW and SV from race to race as they switched the prime strategy between the drivers.
Not only that but at least 2 pit stops were muffed in attempts to optimise the strategies of both drivers.

Red Bull didn't have a definite number 1 driver, but neither did Brawn. To speculate about the possible results for Vettel or Webber is pointless.

We will see this year. Vettel is still super young compared to Webber, more room to improve

Sanjiro I thought their lack of team orders was refreshing and helped them push each other on right until the final race...

I think that you are making an assumption that they were racing each other, something that I doubt. Whilst it may have been true initially early in the season, towards the end it was more like focus where the Brawn was, and drive to finish the race in P1. Japan was a clear example of that, whereas Interlagos was complete disaster for Seb. Until today I am not sure whose idea was to send him out to quali in wet? (Might have been just bad luck, but Webber got a dry laps in, and rest is history).

It was.
I have no issue with the lack of team orders.
I also didnt make that point with the intent of say oo look they could have been WDC
It was to counter the arguments put forward by some that either MW and or SV are not top shelf drivers because when given a race winning car they didnt win the WDC.

As for the JB RB situation, they may well have had no team number 1 but RB defiantly felt he was getting the short end of the stick.

2009 was very random.
Top cars in one race where nowhere in the next.

Thats your opinion and certainly not Autosports own opinion, the McLaren was that quick in the second half of the season that it was able to lose huge chunks of time to the Red Bull in high downforce corners, i can remember Lewis losing nearly a second to the Red Bulls in one sector alone. At seasons end the Hamiltons said they hoped this seasons McLaren would be a much better car and i do think the fact that Heikki wasn't even able to ever get a sniff of a podium shows it wasnt the fastest car.

I took the trouble of doing a spreadsheet for all the drivers during last season for my own satisfaction, data is not biased