So I’m watching Speedvision the other night and on comes Legends of Motorsport, and this time it’s this little bit of filler about what various drivers were doing to kill time between the 1964 French and British GPs. Mike Hailwood, just to name one, nipped over to Spa to run the 500cc Belgian GP, so there was Mike pulling on his battered old leathers and those famous boots with the outside edge worn away so his socks are showing through, and then he’s on board the MV Agusta, to which the camera crew is gleefully strapping a camera in all sorts of interesting locations, and all the while Mike is chattering away on the soundtrack about how he really feels safer on the bike because if he falls, he won't get hurt unless he slides into something hard, and in the Lotus/BRM he never knows what gear he’s in and he doesn’t like the way it weaves and slithers around…(amazing footage of Mike and the MV swooping through Eau Rouge and Masta, and, oh yeah, he got back to business on Sunday and won the GP, naturally…)

So then the next day I’m watching this year’s Goodwood, and here’s John Surtees going up the hill aboard another MV, and then at the wheel of the 1967 F1 Honda, and by this time my head is spinning.

Anyone ever write anything pithy comparing Hailwood and Surtees (maybe throwing in Nuvolari and Rosemeyer for good measure?) Who was the artist and who was the technician? Why do we call Surtees Fearless John when it was Hailwood who won a medal for bravery in saving Reggazoni’s life? Did Surtees get more of a charge from building and campaigning his own (ultimately unsuccessful) F1 car than from winning all those World Championships as a hired gun? What were their respective motivations in switching from bikes to cars- new challenges? More starting money? Sticking it to each other? I know who was the greater driver; who was- subjectively of course- the greater rider? Mike’s dead and John's an elder statesman- who was the happier man?

I’m working on a new obsession here.

I can by no means answer all your questions but I am certain your post will elicit many informed comments. I will take a crack at one or two points. Of course they were both fearless in the sense the term applies to the nickname. Surtees had many other nicknames and they all were affectionate while showing a recognition for his no nonsense approach and total commitment to everything he did. I can also say with certainty that although they were quite different in personality they shared a mutual admiration, respect and real friendship for one another. I would say no to your point on Surtees being motivated by the challenge of running his own team as the reason for leaving bikes. Don't forget that he had been out of bikes for round about 10 years before he became a constructor/driver. I came to know Surtees quite well and saw him in many remarkable situations that displayed aspects of his character and intellect that he is rarely given credit for (then or now). I never met Hailwood although I saw him race and around the pits and paddock. So I can't comment as much on him. I do know that he was well liked in both the bike and road racing world and his character and presence will never be replaced.

I am fascinated to know that you saw the Legends piece you refer to in your post. It is actually part 2 of a film called "The Time Between." The first part aired a couple of months ago and I tuned in having no idea what it was. It is remarkable and would be of tremendous interest to virtually everyone on TNF. The premise is that they follow four GP drivers behind the scenes and chronicle their lives off the track and at home. Although it isn't all off the track - Part 1 contains some great film of the French GP at Rouen and the following weekend at the Reims 12-Hour. Absolutely candid wonderful stuff - take your breath away footage - am I making my point? Really, it is that good. There is a great bit for instance with Gurney accepting the laurels and applause at Rouen while the British national anthem plays. All the other drivers - filmed as they are getting out of their cars comment on it and are hugely amused - the one getting the biggest laugh out of the situation is Gurney. I could rattle on but I won't. Well, one more scene that comes to mind. Bruce McLaren is filmed at some length back at his shop with his sports car (Group 7 car) up on jigs being built. What a unique look at the original McLaren shop and what I think may have been the first car to be caled a McLaren - actually being built! This is a great film and that is just a small taste of what it contains. It sounds though from your description that Part 2 may not be so compelling. Unfortunately I missed it. It came on at 2:30 AM and I tried to record it but botched the job. Very frustating as I have been waiting anxiously to see it. Well at least I have a good tape of Part 1. I can't imagine why thy would put such a great piece of film on at such an obscure time. I will keep looking for it you can be assured.

I think you have started a great thread and I look forward to hearing other responses and perspectives.

I am looking forward to this thread. I know little of Big John (sometimes used by DSJ), or Mike the Bike. DSJ spoke highly of both as no-nonsense guys, which he related to (a biker thing?).

One little comment. I would never think of John as a hired gun. He walked out on both Ferrari and BRM mid-season when the nonsense levels got too high. I remember seeing him at Silverstone in a works BRM (196?),leading the British GP on the 1st lap. "This looks good", thought I. Then he braked hard and the suspension broke. I think that was the end of the relationship...

The Time Between, indeed. And trust me, Part Two is plenty compelling. And doesn’t Speedvision drive you crazy with its sometimes less than elucidating program listings?

“Hired gun” is, of course, my rather glib description of drivers who don’t quail at switching teams according to whomever they think will give them the best chance of winning or the best compensation in doing so- which probably describes almost all drivers who reach the top. But then there’s that quixotic few who eventually get seduced by what Jack Brabham must’ve made look deceptively easy in 1966 and '67. My musings concern Surtees’ abilities as engineer and administrator contrasted with Hailwood’s persona as free spirit and instinctive genius- almost a dancer on a bike (watch aforementioned The Time Between, Part Two, if you can, to see what I mean.)

And I always thought that Surtees was unceremoniously sacked by Ferrari, rather than leaving of his own volition. Didn’t Ferrari plan to hand him his papers after the 1966 Belgian GP (too much public criticism of you-know-who, wasn’t that the usual crime in those days?), only to have Surtees undiplomatically win the thing from pole, plus fastest lap? And Ferrari’s team manager was just too embarrassed to do the dirty deed then and there, waiting until the middle of practice at a subsequent sports car race?

CV, I was being glib, too, though it appears that Surtees no-nonsense behaviour instigated the nastiness with Ferrari. You've caught my curiosity, because I'm having trouble guessing who was 'the you-know-who'. I know nothing of the inside of that story, but my first guess is the Old Man himself.

Any more info?

Although I have never met John Surtees personally, I am, as some people will realise, a cousin to Peter Connew who begun his race car designing career with 'The Old Boy' as he was affectionately known.

From Peter I learned much about the character of the man; some of the stories could not possibly be repeated here for legal reasons - he might sue me. However, I'll relate one which may or may not be true. (I have no reason to doubt Peter, by the way.)

During the design process which led eventually to Team Surtees' first in-house F1 car, the TS.7 which raced for the first time in the 1970 British Grand Prix, a discussion was ongoing between the Boss and the design team. Big John wanted, if my memory serves me aright, to use a three-eighths diameter bolt in a certain position on the suspension, while the designers were mindful of the stresses this particular bolt would have to endure, and preferred a half inch bolt.

Enter one Dennis Davis. Now Dennis was getting on a bit at this time, I gather, and had very much done the rounds of the teams as a racing mechanic. He knew the business inside out. (I should mention here that Dennis used to be known at Team Surtees as the 'NO WAY' man. It seems he used the expression often, at a time when no-one else did.)
Anyway, to get back to the story, Dennis was no respector of status and/or position, and on hearing the argument vis-a-vis the bolt, he ventured an opinion.

You have to imagine this being delivered in a slow, fairly rough, English drawl; to Surtees:
"Listen, mate, if you use a three-eighths bolt there, you'll be going along some track at 150 mph and that bolt will BREAK. And you'll go over......and over........and over.....and over.......and you'll be DEAD!

Surtees, slightly ashen faced, "Er, I think we'll use a half inch bolt, lads."

I report this story as well as my memory recalls it, it having been told to me nearly 30 years ago.

Although when Peter Connew left Team Surtees to begin building his own car Big John was not a happy man, I am pleased to say that the problems between them have long since been forgotten, and Peter tells me that occasionally he rings John for a chat, and finds him most agreeable.

Barry - what a terrific story! Absolutely in character for Dennis Davis too. I knew Dennis fairly well and he really was one of the great characters and lots of fun. At the same time he was just a very nice guy. I wouldn't have thought he was that old at the time but I'm not sure. But your description of him is just the way I remember him.

Where is FastOne when you need him? I guess he could make a good contribution to this thread. And I distinctly rememer him posting that he had a picture of FJ driving a GP car on two wheels (I'd say he was resorting to his two-wheeled expirience to make the car go faster than it would normally go)!

CV - I was pleased to see you knew that film "The Time Between" and appear to share my enthusiasm for it. I'm still trying to find part 2 on some future Speedvision airing. Your account of Surtees leaving Ferrari doesn't quite jibe with what I remember from the time. First of all I certainly don't think Enzo Ferrari wanted at all to let Surtees go - and not just because how good he was (I believe his win at Spa was his 4th in a row that Spring for Ferrari - Syracuse and the Monza 1000K plus another that I can't recall just now). I think Ferrari really liked and respected John. The way I always heard the story is that problems had been brewing for some time between Surtees and the team manager (Dragoni wasn't it? - sorry, I don't have any reference books close by and I'm doing this from memory). They all came to a head at LeMans and that's where the big blow out occurred. Ferrari apparently sided with Dragoni on whatever the specific issue was and Surtees left as a matter of principle. That is completely in character for Surtees who was (is) very strong minded and highly principled. Of course the problems were likely very deep seated and much more complicated than just this. Certainly Ferrari had been very upset when Surtees had his big crash in the Can Am late in '65. Ferrari didn't like it that his star driver was driving anything else and then would have the temerity to miss some races because of an injury. So I do remember that it was a very complex story. Your version of the team manager being set to unceremoniously let him go after Spa and being thwarted because of the win is a version I never heard before. That's not to say you're wrong. It's just not the way I remember it being related at the time. The other thing I wanted to comment on was your statement that Surtees won Spa from the pole and set fastest lap. You are of course completely correct but it wasn't quite as easy as it sounds. Jochen Rindt passed Surtees on lap three (despite having spun at the Masta kink on lap one at something like 150 mph when he hit the wall of water that famously eliminated roughly half the field). I wish I had the lap chart I kept that day close by - it's in New York and I'm writing this from Chicago - but if memory serves me right I believe Jochen held the lead until lap 20. It was such an exciting race. The track began to dry late in the race and Surtees went by to score a magnificent win and his last ever for Ferrari. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Surtees had done 57 races for Ferrari and won 12 and finished 2nd 12 more times. Having attended every GP that year I will always believe that whatever the true circumstances surrounding his departure from Ferrari - it cost Surtees his 2nd world championship and Ferrari the contructor's championship. CV, this is just my recollection of it from long ago. I don't pretend to have the complete story.

Two things stand out here... Mike's incredible memory for a year that nobody could forget... and Barry not having met Surtees.
I also recall both drivers/(riders) and saw them race. Hailwood in a Lotus 18 at an Historic meeting where he was the guest of honour (and rode a bike as well), Surtees in the Lola 2.7FPF and later in the TS-whatever F5000... come to think of it, I saw Hailwood in that car too, both at the same circuit, Warwick Farm.
My regret is that Lola T70 crash, for he was geared up to do the Tasman and it all went out the window because of the long hospital stay.
Fast One is also a fan of FJ, and who can blame him?
But in the constructor business, FJ seems to have hit rock bottom. Quite apart from sponsorship from toymakers and condom manufacturers, he conflicted with virtually everyone around him... as Barry describes. Two of my acquaintance who often mention this are Larry Perkins and Harry Galloway.
The Surtees I prefer to remember is the one sitting on the floor at Gary Campbell's workshop, talking about racing over the years while the boys worked on the car. I had a nice chat with him that day, but for the life of me I can't remember much of what was said!
As for Hailwood... going down through the gears one at a time under brakes for Creek, just like on a bike, but with the Chevy making the noises between the gears....
Ya had to be there...

Johns venture back into 2 stroke GP bike racing has sadly not been going to plan so far. Hajoue where are you going with that gun in your hand?