http://agnarson.com/F1LM_alx.jpg

Good speech by Ron, on business generally...

"In 2009, for example, Toyota topped the car manufacturers' global R&D league table with an annual R&D investment of £6.4 billion - a 7.6% increase on the previous year. By contrast, the gross expenditure on R&D in the UK in 2008 was, as a proportion of GDP, just 1.8%"

And a Dare to be Different message.

Pitpass

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85485

Still a long way to go... Get rid of the frankly annoying and obtrusive title sponsor. Start making cars and your own engines. Get rid of Mercedes. So much to do, but the ambition is there nonetheless and the MP4-12C is a good start, and they're in the process of booting Merc and becoming properly independent.

I think title sponsors, especially the obtrusive ones like Vodaphone and Petronas take away alot from a team's image.

Grrrrr, I just posted this in the MP4-25 thread because I couldn't find this one despite a search!
Couldn't agree more on the sponsors and, as I commented in the other thread, I think a lot of the support is down to lewis and jenson rather than the team...
Mind you, as a lewis fan, macca will probably always be my team from now on although I'd have split loyalties (more towards him) if he left.

Watch the 2nd video down, Jo Ramirez and Gerald Donaldson reminisce about Senna's pole lap at Monaco in 1988.
http://mclaren.com/heritage

Ron is at NASCAR this weekend...

Working the good people to branch out the electrics side of Macca:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85523

MPC is taking shape:
http://twitpic.com/2buroa

McLaren showroom at One, Hyde Park, Knightsbridge.

Ron doing it in style.

Nowt (nothing) wrong with being ambitious, but the chances of McLaren becoming bigger than Ferrari are slim.

Why? Ferrari only sold 6,250 cars in 2009.

McLaren's current plan is for 4,000.

Already...

Given the history, probably true. But if Ferrari keep pissing off the fans by fixing races and lying barefacedly to the press they'll be doing McLaren a favour. I'm not judging Ferrari myself on such matters, but their image definitely took a hit over Hockenheim, however slight.

McLaren have been seen as one of the big teams for quite a while now, but such things are cyclical. Renault, and Williams, and Lotus before them, were all big time teams once upon a time and look at them now. Ferrari - despite their form in and around the 80s, have always been one of the major players.

Ehhh? Have you forgotten about Melbourne 2009, Hockenheim 2008 not to mention the 2007 spygate scandal? Mercedes left for a reason. Withmarsh has been very busy changing Mclarens image. Also, for a reason.

Judging from the unpopular SLR project, Dennis better be wise to stay a bit more realistic. 4000 cars a year sounds a bit too optimistic. They have a chance if the press gets raving but theres lots of other things wich need to be adressed before selling so many cars will be achieved. A large dealer network. Will the car be reliable. Is maintenance affordable. The F1 came for a normal service at 30.000 pounds.

???? Huh - wasnt that the race where Lewis Hamilton had to overtake the top 5 cars (to win) including Massa's Ferrari after McLaren botched his stratergy?

Surely that made the McLaren Image look awesome?

It was also the race where Mclaren used exactly the same team orders as Ferrari did 2 weeks ago. In fact laid down the blueprint on telling driver A that driver B was behind and faster. Most sensible F1 fans and media noticed that and defended Ferrari last week using this example instead of getting into a hysterical tirade.

Oh I see

Yeah the McLaren image is awesome. It's hard to think of another car launch with so much going for it.

The difference was Massa earned and would've won if not for those team orders much like his compatriot Austria '02. Alonso was not fast enough to get past Massa this year at Hockenheim and that's what pangs so much, we saw a fabricated win. It's not quite the same as 4th/5th. Once Lewis got past Kovaleinen for 4th in '08 he went on to pass another three cars for the win and was about 0.5s a lap faster than his team mate. Lewis was coming by whatever Kovaleinen did such was his pace advantage, IMO Kovaleinen didn't respond to a direct team order to let Lewis through he simply didn't fight Lewis because it would have been futile to risk fighting his team mate who clearly had a much better pace at the time. And look what happened, it was justified. And McLaren definitely didn't get caught out with any ridiculous "coded" messages.

They didnt? What was the difference in what Mclaren told Heikki vs Ferrari telling Massa? The argument was that Ferrari was helping Mclarens image by 'lying to the press and the fans'. I am scratching my head over this one with above mentioned incidents in mind.

To go back to the aim of Mclaren to topple Ferrari..many manufacturers aimed to do that and failed. I also think the comparisment goes away when you see the long history, the legendary cars and brand members. The racing history, the passion. Or the fact that Ferrari builds their own engines where Mclaren uses a Mahle built V8. Lets see if that appeals to people who consider buying a Ferrari.

The difference is there were cars in front of Heikki. No need for any head sctratching.



It's not Ron's aim to 'topple' Ferrari I think, more to join them. Which he looks certain to do, with what looks like a huge waiting list for the 12C already.

well, one thing we can agree on, which is the truth is there was no backlash in 2008...and loads of backlash in 2010. So you can try to argue all you want that it is the same thing that happened in both cases, but the media and fans clearly see it differently which is what matters when it comes to how it affects the image of the Ferrari or Mclaren brand.

It's designed by Mclaren and Final assembly is done in house - however i think Mahle cast the block.


Not that it matters
Lotus use Toyota Engines.
Pagani Zonda use Mercedes Engines.

Ferrari use several outsourced parts in their cars.

Yes IIRC they have aready got a multi year order book...

I really don't like the veyron approach to the job, it weighs, as you say, a staggering 700kg more than the F1 to begin with. I've never seen a back to back on a racetrack, only drag races but i'd bet a fair bit the F1 would blow it away because ot this alone.

The F1 has a higher power to weight ratio of 550bhp/ton against 530bhp/ton of the veyron. (627bhp/1140kg against 1001bhp/1888kg)

The veyron has a higher top end of 253mph but to achieve it you have to come to a stop, turn off the car and switch to the low drag/low ride hieght configuration. Without doing that it'll hit only 220mph, the F1 will go from standstill to 241mph in standard configuration.

The F1 looks far better too.

The Veyron was built for drag racing and top speed runs, the F1 was designed to be the ultimate driving car and i think i prefer that approach best.

Is there any win under Veyron's belt?


To be a racing car you must have some heritage, they even sell it under the price


Read more: Bugatti Veyron - Wikicars
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

Think this is it.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/data/tec...y-of-a-supercar

5thDriver just twittered the McLaren SAP statistics explorer!

http://mclaren.com/sap/

So what if there was no backlash? Fan opinion remains only that. If they even are fans in the first place.

Perhaps youve misread my comment. I asked what the difference in communication between the team and driver, and team vs media/fans was.




There was some backlash, as Brundle noted there was booing going on at the podium ceremony, wich had him remark that it was strange to see a Mercedes driver being booed at a Mercedes home GP.

What we can agree on, is that the spygate 2007 wasnt in the best interest of Mclarens image, nor was the insistance of having two equal drivers in the Heikki years (the Alonso year might also be open to debate), nor were the various penalties Mclaren and its drivers got throughout 2008 and many see the Melbourne 2009 incident as the culmination of all these incidents wich made Mercedes Benz decide (along with Mclarens decision to build their own sports car)to pull the plug being Mclaren works engine partner and part owner. Compared to that, the backlash of last weeks Hockenheim looks like peanuts.



I think using a few outsourced parts is a huge difference to having your engine being made, or partly being made by Mahle.
I also think the engine does play a huge part in Ferraris history. The famed engine notes. The high quality and performance. The passion many people have for it. The Ferrari logo being in the top 3 most noticable and iconic signs for years and years.

Its true Pagani uses AMG engines, and Lotus uses Toyota. But Lotus also has a lot more racing heritage than Mclaren. Still, the production numbers dont lie. About 8000 elises where built over a 6 year period. After that, the numbers got down to a few hundred a year. Pagani builds about 2-300 cars a year. The same goes for Audi engined Spyker, or Apollo Gumpert. Caterham comes with those same numbers. The Lamborghini Gallardo looks a nice rival for the new Mclaren. But that very popular car, well remarked reliability since Audi took over, wide dealer network, does not exceed the 2000 unit a year mark. Lamborghinis total production is around 2500.

In the end, Ron Dennis might just be putting out marketing talk. But 4000 units a year really is huge and imo, a bit overoptimistic. Nevermind being in the same company as Ferrari.

Because of MP4-12C, yes.

Don't think so, I don't rememember that at all Hock 08?. I think I would have noticed...

I hate that car on the display, it looks like MP4-24

great pic

No one has a problem with Webasto sunroofs on their posh cars either (not that they brag about it!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track#Power_Laps

Not such a bad feat really.

I'll have the McLaren and the difference though thanks

It's a shame the F1 isn't on that list for a comparison. The Veyron is 8th (well, 7th if you discount it's own super-expensive overpowered version), and the McLaren F1 being *much* lighter and having more horses per ton should beat it around a track. That Top Gear 1 mile drag test with the F1 and Veyron showed the F1 take a huge early lead, only to be caught near the end of the mile. There are no mile long straights on Dunsfold track.

Well if Ferrari do sell 6000 units per year - Id imagine thats a good percentage of the market McLaren are trying to capture.
So If McLaren did go up to 4000 per year Ferrari may drop to 4000 per year.

McLAren will have the advantage of exclusivity over Ferrari - yet Ferrari have herratage (although McLaren also have quite a bit of herratage themselvs)

Thats because it didn't happen!!!!

Mclaren more exclusive than Ferrari? I doubt it. You have the numbered Enzos', F40's, F50's. The course clientele where the richest customers race F1 cars of a few years old to way back in the 50s and 60s. Then there are the thousands of fanclubs setting up thousands and thousands of events each year. Dont forget Ferrari these days make more money just on the name and the merchandize. Its good and fighting talk from Dennis but I think he can dream on being on Ferraris level for the coming 20 years.

A much more realistic target would be Lamborghini imo. They have a much smaller output, a smaller dealer network yet Audi has pumped up the image of that marque bigtime. Audi did pump in huge amounts of money though. It remains to be seen if Mclaren have the resources to keep up with such a huge carmanufacturer behind the Italians.

A well. The numbers of the Mclaren car are impressive enough. Lets see how it does in comparisment tests vs their target rivals.

Yes of course - If there are less availiable then they are more exclusive!!!


Yup - there are far F40's/F50's and Enzo's than McLaren F1's availiable which now attract millions. The fact that there are a lot of Ferrari availiabel makes them Less Exclusive - EG I often see a 430 a 612 and a 599 on the drive to work. I have never seen a F1 on the road - I have only once seen a Zonda on the road. Hence the Ferrari is more common - now im not talking 911 common here but simply it is more common...




I think McLaren Merchandising is picking up a lot too - helped in part by Hamilton - But also they have now been around for a significant ammount of time.



The market is allready the same - Lambo already have a significant part of Ferraris market - as do Aston Martin.



I agree the 458 was very very good on the track - on topgear - and numbers wise the MP4-12C has better Power to weight - (more power - less weight) - and should be very good in the corners. However the Aero and Electronic might be better on the 458.

Either way Im sure the MP4-12C will eat into the number of 458's sold.

I guess it's my sheltered upbringing, these guys are a constant surprise

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8109556.stm

Awesome Race - Kimi was excelent in it to...

Yeah it was a cracker .

And Lewis put in that position to save Kovy queueing in the pits...how to build a sporting brand

The market for this type of car at this price point (and above) will grow exponentially for the time being with countries like China, Brazil, India, and some of the Gulf States continuing to form the majority of that new demand.

Mclaren entered the market just in time. I can't see Ferrari losing sales though, both companies will grow over the next few decades i believe.

I certinally can. All of a sudden all those footballers and bankers and lottery winners and company owners will have an option thats not a Ferrari but still has a reconised name of a car company that's sucessful in Formula 1 - that i imagine has:
- similar performance
- lots of prestige
- history
- and as many have pointed out here is more subtle/less chavvy.
I certinally think that the Mp4-12C will have a rather large impact on Ferrari 458 sales!

I doubt it will have much noticeable effect on Ferrari. There is plenty of competition out there already and they have been increasing their sales year on year. Besides, Ferrari aren't a mass market car producer with thousands of pre-registered unsold cars parked up on an airfield. There is a waiting list. Those that can afford a 458 can probably afford a MP4-12C too.

Dunno, Ferrari have had that exact segment all to themselves till now. The alternatives are Porsches, AMG Mercs, Aston, or ultra-low-volume cars with no dealers. Now McLaren is a head-on competitor for the first time.

And if the reviews rate it better, that could hurt the brand as well.

The 12C should grow the segment that's true, other things being equal, but only some owners will buy both marques and the extra volumes are significant, when Mac get to 4,000 that's +60% capacity.

I think it's safe to say that not everyone who would buy the 12C would also consider buying a Ferrari - while Ferrari have a strong brand, it's not a "perfect" brand. The reverse is also true of course. And then there's the people who would buy both. So certainly a Ferrari sale doesn't mean a lost McLaren sale and vice-versa. I think in the short-term Aston Martin would be most affected by McLaren entering this market, though this is just a guess.

With Ferrari selling 6000 cars a year (I've heard up to 10,000 but can't find any references right now), if/when McLaren starts selling 4000 cars a year in a very similar market, that's sure to have an effect, though it might not be so easy to measure. For example, it might affect Ferrari's waiting list, which will put a subtle pressure on price. Likewise, if McLaren begin to become recognised as the market leader in this segment, that would also put subtle pressures on Ferrari. Such pressures might not be obvious - for example, Ferrari might find it harder to grow sales than otherwise.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see.

I thought the 12C was placed as an affordable sportscar with very high qualifications. Id think it would be more a challenge to the 911 than a Ferrari.

Porsche's output has been growing every year to a cool 30.000 911's a year. In terms of numbers they kick Ferrari and just about everybody else combined. Still, that didnt hurt Ferrari one bit. As been mentioned, theres a 2 year waiting list on the 458, as was on the 430 and the 360.

Id be suprised if Mclaren and Ferrari would bite eachother. For now, there is simply no comparisment.

Another point...many guys who can afford a Ferrari usually have a few other motors in their garage too. Enough money to own a 12C and a 458.

Btw, anyone else think the front of the 12C looks an awfull lot like the 458?

It's in the 458 price bracket and more expencive than the most high spec porsche 911


McLaren already have a 2 year waiting list too so Ferrari are probably already feeling it.


Well since Mclaren current output is 0 it cant really be hurt, there is one pie if another guy comes to the table then everyone gets a smaller slice so he can have some! Simple maths.


Some but the majority of people in that market can only afford 1 'toy/fun' car, they usually have a sensible car as well, it reminds me of tha 5th Gear episode I watched once where the guy bught a Mini a M5 and a Zonda.


Not really, they all look like an lotus esprit copy if you want to go wdown that road. Frank Stephenson is the cheif designer who defected to McLaren From Ferrari as the designer of the F430.