My comment was based on this from (http://www.felipemassa.us/alonso-knew-about-race-fixing/) - carried in many newspers (guardian, racing uk, etc.):

Felipe Massa says he remains suspicious that Fernando Alonso did know about the deliberate crash plot at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix – but has vowed not to let it affect his future relationship with the Spaniard. Massa spoke to Brazilian media during a get-together in Sao Paulo on Wednesday and, during the lunch, he said he was in no doubt that Alonso had to have been aware of the plans for Nelson Piquet to crash deliberately in the Singapore event last year to try and help him win.

“In all, he is the least of the problem,” Massa was quoted as saying by the Brazilian media about Alonso's involvement in the affair:

"It was the team and Nelson, but Alonso was part of the problem. He knew. We can not know it [but] of course he knew. [It's an] absolute certainty."”

The comments created a huge media storm in Brazil ahead of this weekend's grand prix, and Massa and Ferrari moved to clarify the remarks in a statement issued on the Maranello team's official website on Wednesday evening.

In it, Massa said that his comments relate to a feeling he has rather than being based on facts, and he totally respects the FIA's findings from its investigations that Alonso was not aware of the crash plot.

“"What I've said is the outcome of a hunch I've had and is not based on any concrete evidence,"” Massa said in his statement. “"The FIA World Council announced that there was no indication that Fernando may have been informed of what had happened and I respect this outcome."

"Obviously I'm very disappointed about what transpired last year in Singapore: I have already said several times what I thought about it and now it's time to close that chapter and to look to the future. “What is certain is that this episode will not mar in any way the relationship I'll have with Fernando when we will be team-mates."”


AND THIS: (http://www.felipemassa.us/massa-says-piquet-crash-robbed-me-of-title/) also reported in many other papers including: (http://www.motorsport.co.uk/formula-1/massa_piquet_crash_robbed_me_of_title_rss226818.shtml)

Felipe Massa thinks he was robbed of last year's Formula 1 world championship by Nelson Piquet's deliberate crash in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. Speaking for the first time since it was confirmed that Piquet crashed on purpose in Singapore last year to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win, Massa has not held back in his belief that the result of last year's title should change.

Massa was leading the race before Piquet's crash brought out a safety car where a botched pitstop by Ferrari cost him any chance of a points finish. In the end he lost the world title by a single point.

"All of what happened was robbery but regarding the race nothing has happened, the result remains the same. This is not right,” Massa said in an interview with Globo television in Brazil. “The robbery changed the outcome of a championship and I lost (the title)."”

Massa believes that F1 should have followed the example of football, where matches that have been fixed have been declared null and void.

"I have seen in football how a referee took money to throw a game and all the suspect results were annulled,"” said Massa. “"In Italy, Juventus were relegated. But here they just sent Briatore home. I don't get it and I don't think it was right."”

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My comments: Now whether or not Massa will really be able to let it all go, I don't know. Whether or not he still thinks Alonso was a part of the problem, I don't know. But your assertion that Massa wouldn't believe that Fernando played a part isn't true. He said right in the interview that Alonso was part of the problem - and that problem cost him the title, in his opinion. Remember, Massa not only ended up at the back of the grid and ended with 0 points, Hamilton also came in 3rd for 6 points.

So personally I think this may still be a problem later on. Alonso and Hamilton had big problems and they had no past history together. If there is a problem between Alonso and Massa - do you really think Massa is not going to be thinking about all of above once again, despite saying he was going to close the chapter? Well maybe - but I doubt it. I think it would open up like a pandora's box and add fuel to any fire that comes between them. That is why I said it was "simmering" below the surface in my opinion.



Well after Sebastian Vettel passed Hamilton in that '08 title race, Massa had won the title as long as Hamilton couldn't challenge Vettel (which he could not). Then Timo Glock, who had been 18 seconds ahead of Hamilton and ahead of Vettle was prey to a dramatic slow down and both Vettel and Hamilton passed him at the last corner of the race, giving Hamilton the title. Just more in the long line of horrible luck that Massa has had to deal with. It is of course worse if he believes the suspicions some tie to Glock's behavior - but there is no evidence that he does - so it would just be more terrible luck.

that was due to rain mate,in the last 2 or 3(really dont recall exactly) laps it starter pouring and toyota gambled, and did not change tires, both trulli and glock made the same time(or close enough)on those laps, and of course they were slower because of it.So glocks "dramatic slow down" was neither his fault nor doing, just a gamble in the rain by toyota.

cheers

You could well be right, but if Massa really is thinking it was crashgate that cost him the title, rather than his drives at Malaysia, Canada, Germany, Silverstone, Italy, Japan..., then he's really in a victim mindset and is going to pay the price for that against Alonso.

And as for Brazil, surely even Felipe knows it was Glock's decision to stay out on dries that created the drama, the weather just did what it was predicted to do, a bit later than expected, and once it did indeed rain then his last lap was always going to be that slow.

No, you keep mentioning Alonso but this is not about him but what Massa believes he did. Surely you can see that? It isn't Bourbons assumption we're discussing but Massa's.

I always thought it was toyotas call because both of them stayed on dries.


Anyways here is a link to the last 5 laps of brazil 2008,notice trulli and glock make almost the same time on last lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKLwyu_uurU

Can we please not discuss these incidents themselves but rather limit the discussion to their effect or perceived effect they may have on Massa in his relationship/battle with Alonso.
Should you wish to discuss the incidents themselves please find the threads that discussed them and carry on the discussions there.

I'm pretty sure Massa actually said that its achievement that Glock even got to the finish in those conditions. And not only Massa, I've heard that from countless current or former F1 drivers. No one who has any clues on racing thought that there's something fishy about it.

Toyotas gambled with strategy and they actually won the gamble (before the whole rain thing Glock was ~20s behind Hamilton. They won gamble, and they were lucky to do so since weather forecast predicted rain to start 2-3 laps earlier than it did. They just weren't 'lottery jackpot lucky' to avoid the whole rain and finish even better than they did. It may not look so to you, but Massa was actually lucky in that race, not unlucky.

All in all, Massa was unlucky with his F1 team that season, not with 'Glock business', with that he was actually lucky.

Massa is almost the 'Hamilton' of Ferrari in terms of his education and upbringing within the team, he looked good alongside MS and handled Kimi.

Alonso might be a tiny bit better than Massa, but the difference at this level is so slight it won't make a major difference. If Massa can avoid too many mistakes, I can see him going toe-to-toe with Alonso all season.

I see Hammy and Fernando as the ones in similar positions in their teams, even though Fernando has only just arrived. Well, given that no-one is as much a part of their team as Lewis is. They're both the mainstays, the focus, the go-to guys who'll maximise the gain from the teams' efforts.

Ferrari may have a fondness for Felipe but so far this year they're all "Fernando Fernando", and for solid reasons. In Bahrain we heard Rob Smedley again having to cajole a protesting Felipe Baby into driving sensibly by cooling his engine. Even if Massa can lap as quickly as Alonso (which I doubt), he'll never be on his level.

Why must these threads always turn to a war, can we not appreciate they are both mega drivers?

Ofcourse not. One is better then the other, and it will be proven.

If indeed Massa thinks Alonso made him lose the 2008 championship he is a lost case this year.
He will never understand how championships are won. And will continue to make mistakes due to changeable race situations, specially if he sees Alonso as the guilty man for his 2008 WDC hopes.

I think he doesn't really think that.
He sure must realize that it all depends on himself and not on incidents he can't control.

I've seen this movie before
and the "better" one by the experts opinion is left without a drive in f1 to make way for the real star

I think he must not be that ignoramus to really be convinced that that purported Renault's stratagem was the only thing to blame. Actually, the key factor for his bad result in Singapore was the hose issue, which was not related to the stratagem, it was his own team's fault. I really believe he doesn't ignore it, it would be absurd. I also think he cannot/doesn't forget other occasions during that season in which he was the only one to blame for his own driving mistakes. Massa would be a moron if he really puts the blame on something that meant a marginal percentage of the whole that brought about his losing of the drivers championship, I don't think he is, those comments must have been addressed with other intentions.

Just because one thing happened once, doesn't mean with some vague similarities (and a lot of differences) it's going to keep on happening.

i don't expect alonso to keep on beating massa in too many races , despite doing it once

It's the typical Mr Speed v Mr Consistency battle.
And most important is what Ferrari expect from both of them and who they support for #1a - for sure they will give priorities to Alonso as Mclaren should do and didn't at 2007.

For sure Kimi's mistakes in 2008 were a disappointment for Ferrari.

Yep Alonso has proven he is nothing special without preferential treatment.

Sorry, who is who?

If you are referring to Kimi he could have gotten a drive at McLaren and Mercedes at least if he had wanted to. He chose rallying.

Nobody is.

As Mr Sauber discovered Massa has natural raw speed.
Alonso pushes everywhere anytime and has natural instinct to smell blood.

Which is which?



Well if Fernando lets Felipe get ahead in the championship then he can't expect the team to support him as No1. Just like in 2007...

No doubt.

(as for 2007 it's better to leave that for other threads or else someone will close this one )

No, I think Massa's point was that it was the only thing to blame that was UNFAIR. Cheating is not a normal part of any competition and it is disallowed - it leaves you upset with the cheaters. Making mistakes is allowed because it is a natural function of any competition and separates the entrants in a fair manner - mistakes leave you upset with yourself. This was what I felt Massa was saying - he was upset with those who he felt cheated.



Well I respect your view - but we have no control over what Massa thinks. If he feels that he was cheated and that Alonso was a part of that group, he may have ill feelings about it and toward Alonso. There is nothing we can do about that, whether we agree with him or not. Maybe everything will work out - as someone pointed out, Massa is used to working with talented teammates, so perhaps submerssion of these types of feelings is second nature to him.

Might as well close the thread, Fernando will win

True.

But, Bourbon, in Singapore what makes Massa losing the points that would have given him the WDC was not any cheating but that disastrous pitstop his team did. And that's crystal clear. He was in front of Hamilton who finished third, so at least that's the position he could finish (6 points more=champion). Is Massa suggesting that had not happened Piquet's crash Ferrari would have carried out a perfect first pitstop just because it would have taken place in a different moment?


Well, my point is basically that Massa doesn't think Alonso costed him the WDC, even in spite of those comments laterally suggesting so. I wonder whether Massa made any statement on the matter in a justifiable stronger tone against his countryman Nelsinho or just decided to focus on Alonso. I think those comments rather were a 'welcome gesture' towards his new team mate . One of those bitching drivers now and then regard each other.

Exactly, and he is totally right (about the stop) as it is the safety car situation that made the guy release him too early. It would have never happened in a normal pit-stop (ferrari had been using the light system for more than a year without any issue). But I think he is wrong thinking that he lost the title there, he lost it by driving poorly in some races like (out of my head) australia (crash in first lap then with coultard), sepang (spun out from second), monaco (except for that mega first stint), silverstone (very poor qualy, and then abyssimal race). I think he could easily find the point he was missing in one of those races, before blaming piquet/alonso...

And then we don't even mention the disqualification of Hamilton at Spa...

J.

Singapore 2008 is relevant only in how it might make Massa feel about Alonso this year so try and keep the discussion focussed please.

At what? Massa is one of the best qualifiers on the grid, Alonso's racecraft is unparalleled.

However, thanks to the single tyre supplier, 18K RPM rev limit and the FIA's reluctance to ban the Double Deck Diffuser last year, there will be NO OVERTAKING this year.

This means that unless Alonso can consistently outqualify Massa, or if Massa makes a mistake during the race (like covering Hamilton while Alonso sneaks past on the other side) Alonso will not be able to overtake. All the cars will qualify on the same compound (the top 10 anyway) and so will be on very similar strategies, so Alonso won't be able to get by, not unless SANTANDER Ferrari ask Massa to let his team mate past and that's against the rules...

It will be close, but unless Alonso can get his qualifying perfect every race, he's going to find himself in a similar position to his predecessor in 2008.

Oops, sorry, my bad. It was with the light system, Ok. I did a post blaming a poor lollipop man. I'll reword it.

The issue came about just because the light system, or the responsible to operate the lights if such role existed, failed. Ok, yes, the safety car deployment Piquet caused put them under the pressure of a flawless pitstop need, that's all. However, a critical pitstop in terms of time, in order to be or not to be leapfrogged, is not something unusual, furthermore, it was foreseeable in a urban track like Singapore where any safety car deployment before the pitting windows was going to send many cars to the pitlane in a row. Even likelier before the first pitstop when traffic is more dense. To blame hurriedness in the extremely fast F1 world is something hardly sustainable.

Massa also had a disastrous pitstop in Canada in which his car was not properly refuelled. Massa knows those mistakes unfortunately happen and doesn't blame Ferrari which also failed him twice on the engine department. Many issues with many factors involved as to blame someone indirectly related. I don't think Massa is that way.

So let me get this straight. If someone runs a red light and crashes into your car, destroying it - you would hop out and say, "no worries, I'll pay for it - I should have bought a Tank, then your cheating the law and crashing into me wouldn't have destroyed it!"

Because that is what you are suggesting that Massa should do. But the world does not work that way. When someone breaks rules or the laws, those that are hurt in consequence get angry at the rule breaker (aka cheater). They don't sit around wondering at all the things they could have done differently so that the cheating would not have affected them. That doesn't make any sense at all. Of course Massa could have won every single race without any flaws and ended up champion. But his point is that if the fixed race was nullified (points excluded), then he would be champion. What you keep ignoring is that "race fixing" is not in any way, shape or form, equal to "normal problems during a race". Thus, it isn't seen as just one of many things that went wrong. Again, that is the way I feel Massa sees it based on his comments. Massa may be able to let it all go - we'll see.

Hello, DrF.
I disagree with that was a proper mistake. In my opinion, it was a more or less sensible choice since Hamilton seemed more threatening at that point by the inside. By the outside where Alonso was going, the overtaking was much more improbable. Marc Gené commented in the Spanish television channel La Sexta that Alonso's manoeuvre was risky and more difficult because by the outside there's a longer stretch to be run. I think it simply was a right choice with a lateral unexpected consequence.

Sorry, bourbon, that's not to get my point straight but terribly twisted. Massa himself accuses Alonso just of knowing the stratagem, and even he admits to be clueless on the matter: just his impression. I repeat again that even admitting for the sake of his argument Alonso knew it, the key factor took place in Massa's garage.

It seems to me incredible that if that's what he really thinks why on earth he's not bitching his countryman Piquet —reportedly the instigator— in harsher way every other day. I truly believe Massa doesn't think Alonso is a factor on the unfortunate 2008 WDC outcome.

Just like last 3 years, qualifying will be key to beating your teammate.

Yes like in 2008 when Kimi qualified poorly

Non issue. . .

Whatever Felipe thinks about Fernando's role in Singapore, he's smart enough to know that Fernado was not trying to damage his WDC hopes in that race. In fact, Felipe knows that Fernando was vocal about supporting him to win the title over Hamilton in '08... so I really don't think there's any hard feelings there.

I've never rated Massa highly, and I'm still waiting for him to have one of those dominating GPs that even guys like Trulli and Webber have shown, but I must say he impressed me very much with his comeback @ Bahrain. He also seems to have matured greatly compared to his snotty behaviour in the past.

I don't think he will match Alonso over the season but they look to be a mighty pairing this year.

Massa was harsher on Piquet, Jr. He said Piquet should never be hired by an F1 team and disallowed from the sport for life. Knowing that Alonso was to be his teammate, he accused him of knowingly participating in all of that. Then he stated all of that lost him his title. I already provided the interview in a previous post. If Massa has changed his mind, great - but I think you can only push people so far - I think Ferrari is getting very close to the limit with Massa. So as I see it, there is likely a lot simmering below the surface for "nice guy" Massa, perhaps toward Alonso and Ferrari. Maybe Massa can suck it up forever - maybe he will one day explode.

Yes, because no matter how good your race pace is, the qualifying is more important in this last years.
That's of course due to the fact that every year we've seen less overtaking, and if someone has problems in car and can't qualify good, it means almost certain loss in the race.

I find that highly unlikely. There are two sorts of drivers, those like Hamilton and Alonso who throw hissy fits as soon as they sniff the slightest hint of getting disadvantaged, with Alonso we have seen that he was prepared to go all the way, even hamper his own chances severely for years just because he wasn't getting the support he tought he deserved from the team. And then on the other side we have drivers like Barrichello or Massa who might bitch a bit here and there but ultimately will always fall back in line, doing as they are told by the team.

I think it's psychologically built into those guys, it doesn't change with time. Massa has shown that he is prepared to play second fiddle more than once, and I expect him to do it again when the time arises.

+1

Funny to see the airheads here still being busy with writing off Massa, no matter about the on-track happenings. Mark my words: He'll give Alonso a run for his money.

When Alonso end the championship in front of Massa, I wonder how many admit

"I was wrong, Alonso doesnt need team preference to win"

If you ever lucky enough to talk to a F1 driver or team owner (including Hamilton and Ron Denis) and ask them who the most complete, talented and simple the best driver in the F1 grid is (apart from themselves of course) you will get very similar answers:

Alonso


You are aloud your opinions, but please respect the fact that the "people that know" think he is the best.

Ok, Bourbon, I see.
Fair enough if he has stated that on Piquet Jr. However, in the statements you provided he almost doesn't mention Nelsinho and his team but focuses the comments on Alonso.


That's more or less what I think of how we have to interpret those comments: related to his position in the team respect to Alonso's arrival.

Stirling Moss:

You’ve got a racer in Alonso and a driver in Felipe Massa.
Now that might sound strange but there’s a big difference. In Formula One you’ve got all these drivers of which there are only a few real racers, all the rest are bloody good drivers, but there are very few who really get out there and race. That’s what is needed to be world champion and that is what goes through my mind when I assess the field. So Alonso is the better of the Ferrari pair, and for that reason he will probably win the championship.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/10987.html

Nicely balanced post by Sir Stirling Moss

We've only had 1 race, if Alonso had not passed Massa in the first lap then would he still have won?