I couldn't imagine Schumacher driving for another team.

I am a Ferrari fan who is very angry with my favourite team. Not because team orders were in place, because that was a logical decision in my eyes. It is the fact the Massa was lied to that has upset me.

But do you actually believe any explanation coming out of the WSMC meeting?

Indeed - but the issue is that even with such a crappy season (I don't think any of us will doubt that this is far from his best year in F1), he still has 18 points on Massa. And if Massa does not want to lose ground to a driver who, undoutebdly, is going to ask for everything from his team, he cannot afford such a thing to happen.

Nothing different with what happened in Turkey this year when Red Bull instructed Webber to save fuel and Vettel was told to turn his engine up so Vettel can overtake Webber and what happened between the Mclaren drivers when Lewis felt cheated by his own teammate and team.

Well its hard to judge really. The FIA document isn't loading as there is a fault with it so I haven't read it all yet. But if it is true that he was told that Fernando was faster and it was more down to the fuel mixture, then I am very unhappy with that. He was lied to on track. I support both drivers because I am a team supporter. However I don't support lying to a driver giving him the impression his teammate is faster when a lot of it was down to the fuel mixture. I am only supporting Alonso for the WDC because he is a Ferrari driver. I fully expected the team orders, I have no issue with that whatsoever. I just don't like the team lying to Massa.

At least we can put to rest the 3-second agreement. It was never in play.

There was no such thing ever. Just another cover-up from LdM (telling the pitwall) to justify why Alonso was "the faster driver".

Who believed in the 3-second agreement anyway?

I see your point. I just cannot believe that the team would organise such a play just to try and fool Massa into giving way to Alonso, when they just had to instruct him to do so; surely they took their decision based on the WDC standings and not in other considerations, and if that was the case the relative speed of both drivers during that race was irrelevant. Massa had to know what was going on from the moment he was instructed to "save fuel", he would not have been fooled by that.

Could you please explain how you have reached such a conclusion?

the problem with getting all worked up with what people say here is that sometimes you dont get all or the correct information, what the document says is that the"moments preceding when felipe slowed down "alonso had his revs turned up, it doesnt say since when he had them turned up, so while it might be that he turned them up to catch felipe it it could also be that he had just turned them up to try to pass felipe since from what the document says the team had called felipe 4 times to inform him that alonso was faster to no avail so it could be that ferrari were going to get him around one way or another, of course this doesnt make for great debating here as it is more fun to make alonso seem like some sort of malignant creature with powers over all of f1

I just hope that he did know. At least in a way he has the last laugh. Alonso couldn't even get past whilst Massa was in fuel saving mode. I suppose you could call it consolation karma.

What a freaking shame. He was lied by his team. I thought before Germany they had pretty much being threated fairly equal. Changed my mind. I don't think he will ever have a chance at Ferrari and he should know it. If he stays it's just for money.

Because Alonso didn't play along...duh.

It depends on when he got into fuel saving mode, we need to wait until we know the sequence of events. I mean, if he got into fs just one or two laps before he gave way to Alonso, then it was just part of the move to let him by - so no consolation karma at all. If he was in fs mode when Alonso first tried to overtake him (and Alonso was not) then yes, he may find some reassurance there - but I doubt that Alonso cannot take on Massa in those conditions if he really goes for it, to be honest. What is the lap time difference between fuel saving mode and standard mode?

Sorry, but I don't get it - what has Alonso not playing along have to do with the 3 secs rule being or not in place? I am missing something here

Probably not bigger than the difference between Alonso's Ferrari and Kamui's Sauber. BTW when was the last time Akonso overtook one of the big boys ?

He overtook Sebastian Vettel at the German GP. Vettel started 1st, Alonso 2nd.

I am not sure about the other big boys, but when it comes to Massa I would say China?

He turned his revs up or adjusted the fuel mix when both drivers were told to go into saving mode because Vettel was not a threat to a Ferrari 1-2 (like LdM claimed he could have been between the lines). If there would have been a 3-second agreement would Alonso have been allowed to do it? Of course there's always a possibility that Alonso is free to break any agreement he wants without the team doing anything about it. But if that's the truth why would there be a need for an agreement in the first place?

Exactly. Finally a non hysterical evaluation. Some fools here are acting like Alonso had extra revs the whole race...........and every other race, every practice, every qualifying session.

Do we know when were they asked to go into fuel saving mode? That is the bit that I am missing here - the sequence of events. Because you could, for example, have the 3 secs rule in place and, once Alonso has closed on Massa and you have already decided that you are going for the switch, start playing with the fuel mixture.

In any case, as I said in a post above, if you are to decide to switch your drivers' position around it is more likely that you do so based on WDC standings than based on relative speeds at the race (see Ferrari in Australia, for example) - obviously Ferrari may have done differently, but I would be surprised!

I meant other than than a better start, when it takes a different set of skills. We know that he has been overtaken by Hamilton, Button and Kamui and I'm not counting the the times he made a poor sart.

And how is that better ? It seems to me they are still favoring Alonso.

I think it's self-explained in the FiA transcript when Alonso did it and when Felipe didn't get the information. "The sequence of events" is self-explanatory. It happened when Felipe's lead was disappearing by half a second or more per lap.

Yes, we know that. We also know that in Canada there was a performance difference between the McLarens and the Ferrari that coupled with the interference of lapped drivers gave Hamilton and Button a speed advantage at the time of the overtaking, but we cannot quantify it. We know that there was a speed advantage for Kobayashi on new tyres, but we haven't quantified it either. And finally, we still don't know the lap time difference between fuel saving and standard modes for the Ferrari. So the comment above does not enlighten us as to whether Alonso would have overtaken Massa in those conditions.

And some idiots can't understand what they read.

I bet you would. Just a little trivia for you. After that race they both were called by the stewarts to clarify that 'pass' and Massa had to lie and say Alonso overtook him beacause he run wide.

I haven't read the full FIA transcription, I cannot access the FIA website (apparently it is too busy). Do you have it with you? Could you please post the relevant bits here? Thank you in advance!

http://cdn.images.autosport.com/specials/w...sc-decision.pdf

Work on it.

And I assume that your opinion is that Alonso pushed him wide, is that correct? I have the feeling, from the few posts that we have exchanged, that alonso is not exactly your favourite guy out there... But Massa running wide or Alonso pushing him, he did overtake Massa - and hence, thinking that he could repeat the feat with Massa in fuel saving mode is not a far-fetched assumption.

Ouch.

Thank you!

A fascinating reading, as one would expect...

If you sincerely and honestly think that that was an overtake, there's nothing to be gained by responding to your posts. Bye.

Still hurting ? I'm sorry. Stalking won't make it better.

this thread was discussing if alonso was faster at germany than massa, as alonso had closed the gap , some considered this as proof he was, when the fia statement came out and we found out about the rev situation all of a sudden he was not only not faster but they had been screwing with massa and engine revs all fp, all qualys and during all the races , from the fia statement we only know that " moments preceding when massa slowed down" alonso had more revs, we dont know how long that situation had been going on

as for ferrari favoring alonso that is evident with "suggesting" to massa to move over as for all the other stuff some are implying while it could be true it could also be untrue and getting into all this alonso is the devil ,massa is getting reamed up..... without having all the information and not knowing the decision process inside the team is really a waste, i thought people got involved in this board to enjoy their passion in f1 , lately this seems more like some sort of religous crusade to clean the world of the malignant evil.

Wow, so people are surprised that Ferrari were trying to help their team order decision to *look* more justified by helping Alonso out?

Essentially, people are surprised that Ferrari favored Alonso at a race where we *know* they favored Alonso.

It was probably an unnecessary move to make considering Alonso *was* much faster all weekend, but I suppose they wanted to ensure that Alonso could show pace without having to push too hard.

I still dont feel bad for Massa for a second. If he had driven better this season, this would have never happened.

I have seen the transcription now, thanks to Watkins, so I can give you a more elaborated answer:

- Massa's largest time difference with Alonso was 3.5 secs on lap 27
- that time difference goes below 3 secs by lap 31, and below 2 secs by lap 38
- the overtaking is in lap 49
- the FIA report says that the fuel mix was turned to saving mode "a few laps" before the overtaking

What we don't know is if "a few laps" before means before lap 31, and therefore helped Alonso close the gap to below 3 secs; or between laps 31 and 38, and therefore helped Alonso to close the gap to below 2 secs; or after lap 38, when Alonso was already less than 2 secs behind Massa.

If it was before lap 31, I fully agree with you that the 3 secs rule did not apply; if it was after lap 38, the rule could have been in place and the fuel-mix game could have started afterwards; if in between, who knows...

Of course, we cannot prove that the 3 secs rule was in place in any of the above situations. And obviously, the difference in fuel mix did help Alonso in those "few laps" his revs were turned up while Massa's weren't.

Of course everybody knows that was favoring him. What we didn't know is that Massa was lied to.

You know, the same can be said about Alonso? Seriosly stop kissing alonsos butt. What ferrari did was the dirtiest thing you can do to a driver who just had a near death experince exactly a year ago. No logic was used, they just wanted alonso to win.

If that is your reaction to a polite answer that happens to present a view different than yours, I am not losing much by not having any further conversations with you. Bye.

From my observations, it would appear that essentially people are surprised at just *how much* Ferrari were favouring Alonso, imagine if that scenario carries on and Fernando *still* doesn't win the WDC.

F1 is a business, there is no room for feelings.

I cant imagine any team wanting to hire Massa

Huh? What does Massa's near-death experience have to do with anything?

And of course they wanted Alonso to win. He was, and still is, their only hope for the WDC.

As for Alonso *still* not winning it this year, its quite possible. Possibly even likely. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try, though. As a Ferrari fan, I certainly dont want them to compromise their title ambitions just cuz they have a fragile-minded no.2 driver that couldn't keep himself in contention this season.

Many teams would love to have Massa: he is fast and dedicated, and has a wealth of experience. But not many teams could afford him, and those who could may not have seats available at the moment.

and how did you come to that conclusion, where does the statement say that massa was lied to, all the statement says is that massa was not informed of when fernando turned up his revs, from the statement we dont even know when alonso did this and if it was before or after they told felipe that alonso was faster.

you could be right but with the information we have we dont know the sequence so how can you make an affirmation like that, no wonder why it is sop difficult to have any kind of civilized discussion here with people making all kind of affirmations without the information.

A Top Team, surely not.

But he always can return to Sauber and became Kobayashi's teammate

If that happens, Ferrari should sign Quick Nick, but I can't see that happening

It shows unsportsmanship, something not so many people like. But if you're a fan of the ferrari logo, whatever. And lying to your driver isnt the cleverest thing to do if you want to make him as succesful as possible. Besides, the one fragile mind this year to me seems to be alonso.

I am sure Massa will stay with Ferrari.