what the F** does that mean.?. Its like me saying the only reason they were equal it was because Alonso lost his nerve in Canada and Japan and was given a penalty in Hungary..

the best way to measure it, which is the one I always like and use to compare Senna vs Prost, is to see how many times during the year one driver beat the other on the track .. You will see then that Alonso finished in front of Lewis more times than Lewis ahead of ALonso.

I reckon after Massa has beaten him about 3 times.

Twice? if you count 2005 with it then we should count from 2001 onwards aswell
Then Schumy beat him 4 times to his 2

2006 Alonso had illegal damper first 2 halfs of the season and used that to pull up a big lead

No, he was just going along with Luca's orders

who?

Depends how quick the Ferrari is out of the box.

Which relationship hits the rocks first, Alonso with Ferrari, or Massa with Ferrari? I feel the latter.

Alonso will destroy Massa, maybe not immediately, I think Massa will have the edge early on as knows the team inside out but Alonso will beat him comfortably (15 points extra under the 2009 system +) by the end of the season

I'll bet on a general disaster in which all parties involved eventually become embittered. I don't see how two egos like Massa and Alonso can work together within a single team, and I don't see anyone at Ferrari with the leadership and nous to keep them from squabbling excessively.

we all know that was the FIA intervening to allow Ferrari to challenge for the title.. same as Tiregate 2003.
an by the way by Canada Massa had 37 points to Fisi's 28.. So the Renault was not that superior at all even with the mass damper..

Later than the Hamilton vs Button war starts ;)

Ferrari is not McLaren and Alonso is more matured now.

While Kimi got on fine with everyone, Massa and Alonso though, it'll be Alonso's toughest season since 2007 with Mclaren, he's not on michelin tyres anymore, and I don't think Kimi or Alonso were ever or will be as good as their michelin days, the tyre wars are over, Alonso has alot of self belief, so does Massa, and there are a number of tracks where I think Alonso will be under pressure, but he's at ferrari, if he can take defeats better and just concentrate on consistency and being strong on tracks where he's confident on, he can be very well recieved, but he's got alot of people to prove wrong on the well behaved teamate under pressure role, I remember alot of his remarks on bad days with Fisi, Trulli and even Piquet's drama of crashing and letting him win doesn't shine on his cv. He's a very good driver, and yet he has let his image take a bashing and ultimately at times I don't think he cared and he was quoted as saying once. I hope for a mature Alonso, but if things don't go well, it might be hard for him not to show it, we'll see.

Massa has nothing to lose as usual, I think Massa did improve, and even I underestimated him at times, and I think even now he's still a bit underestimated, I didn't like him at times, but Massa has shown improvement, and I think Alonso has gotta respect Massa and show that as teamates, yes he'll want to beat him, but juist on the bad days, he needs to show more class as a man with pride driving for ferrari rather then the boy who blamed the team publically when things went wrong in the past, he can't do that with ferari, he's gotta think more before he speaks, then he'll have matured and we'll only know that when he's had bad days, that's when the flipside of his character came out.

Does anyone feel through comments from LDM and Domenicali that Alonso's role within the team is to be the leader?

Yes, I think LDM expects that (Domi, doesn't really have a say I'd think) and yes I think Alonso is upto it, but..
Its really unfair and disgraceful to Massa to be saying all these statements, maybe they are trying to stop any trouble by putting Massa down and destroyed his confidence and comfort in the team, its not on really when he needs all the support he can to come back from his injury.

Or is stating the obvious, Alonso is on 4 times Massa's salary, Alonso has 2 titles to Massa's 0, Alonso has hardly been hired as a lapdog

I agree. I'm curious how Massa and the team will react to that. I'm curious if Alonso becomes MS #2, and Massa joins the line of his teamates. I think it will be Massa who raises an issue in the media first.

I don't think it will happen. Alonso has so far shrugged-off Massa's comments, he will have learnt from his experience of 2007. As for Massa, once he is reunited with his work wife (Smedley) I expect he'll carry on doing as he always does, concentrate on his job and on constantly improving the way he does it. Besides, Ferrari needs a bit of fire in its belly after 1 and a half seasons of very little technical input from 1 side of the garage and half a season of very little input from either driver.

Depends on how quick Massa is and how much Fernando has learned from his McLaren disaster of 2007.

I don't think Alonso handles being beaten by his team mate at all well.

We saw that with Fisichella and especially Hamiton.

So yeah, a valid question for sure.

If Alonso had never gone to McLaren I would say 9 months. Since he HAS been to McLaren he's armed a bit better to deal with it.

Alonso will not drive for Ferrari in 2012. Two years tops.

The biggest difference between Ferrari and McLaren for Fernando is he appears to be the defacto number one at Ferrari. So unless the team get on him for a lack of performance, or Massa some how shows him the way, I don't see Alonso kicking up dirt.

Yes. But that was true for Alonso at McLaren and it was also true of Kimi at Ferrari. Lewis and Felipe destroyed those expectations.

You think this is kindergarten dude, it isn't about being fair but about getting results, if they feel Fred is their best option for 2010 so be it.

Only thing Massa should do is keep his mouth shut and show the team on-track that he still is a potential WDC, simples.

FA will never become as MS#2. No one will. Not in good and not in bad..

You can't see Alonso kicking up dirt if he is getting beaten? As much as Alonso might have matured I can't see him being calm enough to contain getting beat. At the very least he carries a lot of expectations on his back and that will weight heavily on him if results are poor, do you think Spanish media will accept Alonso being regarded as slower then Massa.

It remains to be seen if Massa is able to be faster or not, unlike with Kimi I don't think Ferrari will be building a car that favours Massa instead of Alonso (kimi)

I think now that time has passed, you could tell by Michael Schumacher's behaviour over the years, he knew that Kimi wasn't quite geling with the team, and always promoting Massa, his protege to the world, and I think he kinda enjoyed seeing it, as I think he wasn't too overjoyed with ferrari signing Kiimi so early, Michael said, he was behind the cecision to sign Kimi, as he recommended him to ferrari president, and Michael was behind the Alonso to ferrari move as well, but whether or not the signing of these drivers came at the right time for Michael, I don't know, sure they wanted a top driver, but it was michael's ferrari, maybe Michael thinked he was due more power then he already had, you had some respect there with Massa and Michael, but Kimi was strictly a driving coming into a team that was broken a decade ago, Michael was apart of the team building and success, he helped make ferrari a team drivers want to go too, and I think Luca may regret signing Kimi so early, and this Alonso signing is trying to recapture some sort of Schumacher team leadership thing, maybe it would be a exceptional move, but when you got Schumacher himself coming back into a different team, and Schumi's protege Massa at Ferrari keeping his legacy flowing as Massa is a connection to the master, then Schumacher is really perhaps denting Ferrari's outlook in 2010.

Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher, they you think should be at Ferrari, I didn't think Brawn would leave ferrari, and further yet, not Schumacher, this is now big tough challenge for everyone potentially, Alonso in a new team that Massa knows, it's not ideal, and ferrari having Ross Brawn and Schumi to contend with if he signs, it could just be ferrari's biggest hurdle, their former strenghs against them, friends turned rivals, not ideal, how much knowlege they have.


I'm sure Ferrari would prefer Schumacher back, but I think maybe after all, Schumacher is done with Ferrari, just needs a completely new environment, otherwise I'm sure Kimi leaving ferrari, it would mean Schumacher back and Alonso waiting until 2011 or 2012.


Alonso I'm not sure fits well with Ferrari yet, I think him and Flavio and Renault worked well, I'm not sure if Massa is good for Alonso, it's like keeping Schumi's Brazilian Spiritual brother protege around to keep him under pressure, that's what it feels like.


Anyway, it all depends on Alonso's approach and where he's at in life, he could do very well.

Massa's trash talking of Alonso appeared to be a one off, and perhaps an off-guard comment.

For sure Alonso will be a tougher nut to crack than a demotivated and frequently bored Raikkonen.

But I think Massa will certainly get his attention.

You might be right, and what was Alonso first move? Request the removal of MS. Clever bloke

If Ferrari is any good Alonso will coast to multiple championships and be remembered as the greatest of all time

When Kimi switched to Ferrari, the first comments from within the team were along the lines of "Oh, crap! We're so, so screwed". They seem considerably more positive about Fernando so I'm going to predict a long and happy marriage. Besides, it's not like there are numerous better options available for either party so they pretty much need to make it work.

Felipe didn't destroy that because Kimi wasn't ever going to be that person.

By this I mean a driver who molds the team around him, brings enthusiasm, motivates and becomes the teams lead driver.

Quite frankly I don't see Massa beating him that often, one reason you have listed. I view Alonso as more the alfa dog, but I sit in a chair in front of a computer.

I give him one or two years at Ferrari, of course, without winning the championship.

After that, he is going to retire from Formula One

Maybe losing wouldn't feel as bad as losing to a rookie

Anyway, Ferrari lacks leadership and I don't think Alonso can fix it. Domi is Monte's marionette and Monte himself is in disorder.

The thing is that an all Italian Ferrari team with latin drivers
might well win WDC and WCC next year. However, if they
don't, that won't surprise me either. Both possibilities are on
the horizon.

But can you be sure that Massa is back to his old self 100% after his big accident? If Ferrari picks a #1 driver at the start of the season, then ofcourse they'll pick Alonso. I won't be suprised since Santander got Kimi fired, they can make alot more things happen for Alonso at Ferrari.

No chance of it breaking down from the Alonso side then, however Massa might not like getting lapped two or three times by Alonso first race it rains.
I may not like the way Alonso behaved at MacLaren but he is the most naturally gifted Grand Prix driver since Jim Clark.

More mature?

He was a 26 year old bloke not a teenager

Being almost his age to the day, in general there is still room for maturity at our age, especially considering people around this age still experience alot of firsts.

So..................anyone scared that the Alonso/Ferrari relationship might actually be a huge success?

I see lots of wishful thinking(and insecurity) here. Truth is, Alonso has shown maturity these past two years, and Ferrari are not the same team they were with Michael Schumacher. We saw that with Kimi/Massa, that they were perfectly capable of running two competitive drivers.

Of course they expect Alonso to lead the team. Thats what he's being paid for. But thats what Kimi was paid to do, as well. And when he showed he wasn't capable of it, they never thought twice about giving him equal terms with Massa. And the same will go with Alonso.

Can Alonso handle equal terms with Massa? I think he's mature enough to handle getting beat a few times. But I think in the case that Massa proves as capable as Alonso long-term, it will be an amicable divorce, with both Alonso wanting to leave and Ferrari wanting him to leave. I dont think it will ever *hit the rocks*, though.

But of course, I think its far more likely that a guy like Alonso will actually lead the team and the parternship will be very fruitful. I think most of you would agree on that likelihood as well, even if you guys wont admit it.

So people reach the height of maturity in their mid-20's?

I remember all the rubbish talk of how fast of a driver KR was back in 2003 - he had the reputation of being F1's fastest driver

Well when your teamate is David Coulthard no kidding you LOOK fast !

Then reality hit when Massa matched KR's speed from the get-go ..

Massa is and will always be UNDERESTIMATED in the eyes of most F1 fans , why ? I have no clue

Funny thing is that Alonso at the same time has been OVER estimated with all this non-sence of team 'moulding' ..Give me a break !

what has FA moulded in F1 ?? where was his 'team building' skills in 2008 and 2009 when Renault was a midfield team at best ?

There is only 1 Michael Schumacher and to continually put FA in the same hemishere as the German is BLASPHEMY !

Massa is going to be faster than Alonso from the get go > Just like he proved EVERYBODY wrong when VS Raikonnen .

he wasnt hired incase you forget it took Santander buying Alonso a seat not Ferrari paying alonso

I suppose you dont really rate Mika Hakkinen, then?


I dont think many people underestimate Massa anymore. I think its more the case that Alonso is widely recognized as a better driver.

You may not agree with that, but please dont go around acting like you know any better, because you dont. You have a 'hunch', and thats it.

Right.....I'm sure they never considered Alonso until he said he brought money......

.....Alonso, Ferrari's pay driver.

I'd say its pretty likely that Ferrari would have payed Alonso(maybe not in 2010, though), and the sponsorship he brought with him would just be a bonus. Its not like they were afraid to pay Schumacher and Raikkonen big bucks, ya know?

But even Massa was touted as one of the fastest then, he was just raw. Ferrari speaks highly of Kimi's speed, which makes sense since that likely isn't why he was dropped.

People go on like Massa came out of nowhere, no, he was a rising star from the moment he came into Formula-1.

better is a big word, Alonso might over a season, given the right circumstances, get better results but what happens if the circumstances aren't right?

As to the original question, depends on how good the cars are, if Ferrari can replicate the Todt Brawn Byrne years then I m sure FA will be happy to stay on and reap the championships. Snag is I have this feeling Ferrari is closer to its early 90s form than it is to its late 90s form. And don't forget a big name manufacturer with quite deep pockets has recently gone it alone in F1, and they don't seem to have a long term star driver onboard ;) (Sorry Nico )

I think thats very much part of the *wishful thinking* I was talking about. They were quite competitive in 2009 considering their car was designed with KERS and the basic diffuser in mind. I think(and what Ferrari probably think as well) that they need a top-line driver to really take over and bring them home the results they deserve, which I dont think Massa and Kimi were able to do on a consistent basis.

And what if the circumstances aren't right? Well then even Lewis would be threatened by Massa. So would anybody. The point is that the best drivers tend to come out on top in the end. And Alonso is a driver who's very proven in that regard.

+ 1

Why use many words?

I'm with you.

I wasn't talking about car performance diffusers or packaging, after all Ferrari had bad seasons with the dream team on board, I was talking about the chaotic management and lack of focus that seem to be back with Ferrari since the dream team broke apart. And the politicking. Look at how ferrari was managed in 07 when Todt was still around and look at 08/09 when Todt was gone and the Italians were running things.

Thing is, and it's tempting to use the number 0..6 here, Alonso could make all the difference. A driver the team can fully get behind again, and who rewards the loyalty by being there.

I imagine that working for Kimi must be quite difficult. There's no doubting he's fast, but that lack of feedback and involvement from Kimi must leave the engineers working in a bit of a vacuum compared to how it was with Schumi. Alonso will bring that back.