True. But because he is clearly underperforming (same results now with top car as he had last year with a shopping-trolley) then he´s perfomance can not be used as a measure-stick for Alonso, right? Untill he gets his act together its useless to draw any conclusions.

Alonso vs Massa has surprised me this year.
I did not expect Alonso to be showing up Massa like this
The Ferrari looks so much more faster in FA hands, it looks like he can get way more out of that car
Their mentalities say it all: FA is keen to push development and still talks of the championship
FM is content just to beat Kubica in the WDC

No, you just assume last years car was far worse and a total lemon and totally ignore the fact that massa's very similar finishing position is very strong evidence of the cars being very similar. last years car didnt have alonso driving it so of course it looked much worse just as this ferrari would have looked much worse without alonso driving it. do you realy think massa suddenly started to underperform the moment alonso joined the team? what a co incidence

It is similar as Kovalainen / Hamilton situation in McLaren. Kovalainen just couldn't get the car to work to his driving style. He said that whenever car had fuel in it he simply couldn't pass the corner the way he liked, while Hamilton said its the best car he's driven.

I suspect this to be the case with Alonso/Massa situation this year too and one of the trademarks of great drivers is ability to adapt - I think its something Alonso is much more capable than Massa.

Alonso is clearly faster no matter the tyres. In canada on super softs he was much faster than massa until the last qualifying run when massa hooked up good lap finally. So far in all qualifying sessions this year Alonso is leading 16-2 which is probably the most dominantion on the grid except for kubica and petrov. Alonso's raw speed has always been underated. People talk about consistency but without the foundation of exceptional speed, consistency does not matter.

Not necessarily. Nobody, except the Ferrari engineers with all the data, can say with certainty how Massa performs compared to last year. That they signed him for another two years, be it even as a no.2 (which is still just a rumour), indicates they at least trust him to perform consistent and fast enough to get enough WCC points. If they would see a clear performance drop on the data, it's highly unlikely he would have been retained.

There are couple of factors here:
1. Massa usually performs worse in start of season
2. Massa came back after severe injury and the whole 2010 season could be a recovery process for him (let us remember Webber with less severe injury and 2009. performance).
3. Car is not fitted to Massa style. It has happened in Ferrari in last years - both to Kimi and Massa. It had happened to Button in BGP last year. Main point is, next update could work much better for him.

Take all these factors together and you have indicator as to why is Massa underperforming in terms of pace.

I am really sick and tired of hearing how massa is underperforming or a crap driver. Anyone who believes that simply has a poor understanding of driver performance. I will explain it for the confused ones.

Massa is driving at the same level as he has in previous years. He did not lose talent over the winter. The problem for him is that his peak level of performance is below that of Alonso so relative to him, he seems to be under peforming, but relative to his own abilities he is not. This is all that massa has got , and its actually quite a lot because he is a good driver, he has proven that over man years. The other issue exagerating the issue is that he no is driving the fastest car , like did in 07/08, so he is not a front runner getting poles and looking brilliantly fast. So its a combination on a stronger team mate and weaker car that is giving the illusion that massa is under performing.

I hope its all now clear for everyone. Its clear for ferrari because that is why they just gave massa a 2 year contract.

massa had a concussion and all medical tests have cleared him 100%. webber was not recovered in 2009 and was limping for most of it.

factor 2 you just made up. no reports from the team or massa have mentioned the car does not suit his style. he has been with the team 4 seasons so he would be fully suited to the ferrari cars. his problem in a few races has been heating the tyres but that is just a consequence of not being faster enough to heat them up. when we hear that alonso's driving style heats them better it means he can push the car hard enough to heat them, while massa cannnot.

very well said



really, who did that.
I always thought that Alonsos speed and not his consistency is his trademark!

Thank you very much for your explanation. I was so confused, F1 is so complex. Sometimes it takes a simple mind to simplify(dumb dow ?) things and make us see the light.

Alonso 4 = 4 Massa

Very even pairing so far in terms of results gains as go to Valencia.

in terms of pure stats: yes!
in terms of how it came to that results: no!

Agree.

I am very disappointed by Felipe this year. I did not expect that Massa was ahead of Alonso, but at least closer to him.
Felipe is no longer the same after the accident.

Best races of Fernando Alonso in this year s season:
1. Bahrain - average racing position - 1,693
2. Canada - average racing position - 2,885
3. Spain - average racing position - 3,803
4. Australia - average racing position - 7,293
5. China - average racing position - 7,357
6. Malaysia - average racing position - 9,351
7. Monaco - average racing position - 9,397
8. Turkey - average racing position - 10,068

Average race position of Alonso in this year s races so far - 6,480 /6th overall - only 0,008 ahead of Rosberg and even behind Kubica! /

Best races of Felipe Massa in this year s season:
1. Bahrain - average racing position - 2,673
2. Australia - average racing position - 4,051
3. Monaco - average racing position - 4,294
4. Spain - average racing position - 7,121
5. Turkey - average racing position - 7,689
6. Malaysia - average racing position - 8,910
7. China - average racing position - 10,785
8. Canada - average racing position - 15,579

Average race position of Felipe Massa in this year s races so far - 7,637 /9th overall - even behind Michael Schumacher! /

This year is very strange - Massa is slow and Alonso makes awfuly lot of mistakes. He had only 3 "normal" races this year. Still, which is interesting is the race battle between them two 4:4...

Excuse me, where do you guys get these statistics with average racing position from?

I think Massa is seriously underrated, after all, he was the man who beat "the fastest driver in F1" according to some experts. The last time that he raced in Valencia, he won, so if the F10B works, he could be the biggest surprise the next weekend. He is still one the best drivers on the grid, and will prove it again.

Yea, he well could.

But what will you say if Alonso beats him convincingly here?

I love when drivers have "tyre heating issues" or things like that. Alonso had a Renault and had no problems with it (compared to its teammate), went to McLaren and the same, and now he is in Ferrari and he has not had any problems with the car so far.

Excuses...

Maybe.

But the Renault and the Mclaren were cars known for not having problems heating its tires, to be fair.

Alonso, Kubica and Raikkonen had some issues with the Bridgestones in 2007. The second part of the season was much better.

Well, that could mean they did use that excuse there.

I know it was very hard for both Alonso and Kubica to get used to the new Bridgestones in 2007. They had been driving for Michelin and these tyres suited their driving style much better. Kubica even said he had to drive like a taxi driver because the Bridgestone were softer and suffered more with lateral forces so they had to turn gentler. Probably Raikkonen had his own issues.

It's sometimes an excuse but not every 'but' you hear in F1 is an excuse, sometimes it is an honest explanation.

Those statistics are based on lap by lap (in french tour per tour) data, which can be found on website www.statsf1.com... You can find there positions of each driver in every lap of the race... It does nicely reflect some performances of drivers, sometimes even better then the whole result (for example 14th position of Hamilton in Spain or 12th of Schumacher in Monaco doesn t reflect how good they were in those races in real)

You lost me here: how 6,480 is 7th and 7,637 is 9th?

My math says FM is roughly one position (1.157) behind FA

More important than the numbers are the way you present them.

EDIT: BTW this average position indicates nothing. Let's say A qualifies to pole and gets a 10 position penalty for a blown engine right at the end of Q3, starting 11th. Dirver B qualifies 2nd and starts 1st due to the empty slot.

Driver A does a hell of a race and wins it. B keeps first until he is passed by A.

By the end of the race driver B verage position is around 1.1 and driver a is around 4.5. Who did the better race?

Exactly. Counted one classic example (not team-mates though) Japanese GP 2005 and Räikkönen vs. Fisichella:

Fisi 1,91
Kimi 5,49

FM ahead of FA in at least one session, finally.

Signs to come?

Massa is not as fast as he was before. "Old" Felipe was seen at last in second part of Hungarian qualifying. Medics can say he is 100% fit and it can be true, but the accident could affect some of Massa abilities. And he will also not risk as much as before. Situation with Graham Hill and Niki Lauda was similar. They were NEVER as fast as before their accidents in Watkins Glen and Nurburgring... Alonso is undoubtly fast, but he was just a half of a second ahead of Grosjean in last years qualifyings and Massa is not on Grosjean s level in my opinion.

What's happening with the little guy? I'm afraid that this years regulations have seriously hurt him with the COG being further back. It is definately not the car as Alonso is doing well.

In the last three races Felipe has been faster than Fernando in various stages of these races, so let's wait for a straight fight on track before jumping to conclusions. This weekend looks promising in this regard.

I think you jumped the gun here, let's see tomorrow ;).

I dont think Alonso is 5 tenths quicker than Massa in general, so using one practice session(where Massa lost a good bit of running) to make such conclusions isn't very smart.

We all talked in Bahrain(and actually throughout winter testing) about how Massa is *clearly* unaffected from his injury. Its only when Massa is being overshadowed by Alonso that people start coming out with the 'injury' excuses again.

Lets wait until quali and the race, but I dont expect there to be a 5 tenths gap under normal circumstances.

If Massa were still affected by his accident in Hungary he would not be slower than Alonso, he would be slower than a GP2 rookie. This is not his dreamed season so far but we still have a few GPs and he could improve a lot with the upgrades.

Tomorrow it will be very hot, he won't have issues heating the supersofts, Valencia is not a bad track for him...

I don't want to sound arrogant but I think bringing out Massa's accident is not something to take into consideration. Maybe as a joke.

I know, I know, I know that whenever Massa is beat, his fans would bring out the incident. But they fail to remember that doctors said he's OK. Anything else is a magical speculation.

Maybe that little bump on his head did effect him that doctors can't measure. Doctors don't deal with such accidents everyday do they.

Not physically. There's ways to measure physical things that affect driving, such as reflexes, motor function/mobility, etc. and I'm sure Massa is well above average. Also, if he was not at 100% he'd know it and he would talk about it. I'm a programmer, and when im not at 100% (because I'm tired or something) I know it very well, because I'm not able to focus on what I'm doing and so... I don't think he has any kind of brain damage and I really believe he is back at 100%.

Anyway, knowing that Alonso is 0.4s faster than everyone else on the grid, there only 0.2s left out of the 0.6s pace he had on Massa , which is due his tyre heating issues

It's hard to believe that Ferrari would have re-signed Massa if they didn't think he wasn't 'all there'.

They would have to have taken a serious look.

Ferrari must have massive amounts of telemetry records on Massa, considering all the years he has driven for them. They would be able to see a change in his capabilities on tracks compared to years before....... his reaction times, braking points and physical endurance levels would likely be evident from such data. They also know his personality and notice any changes.

It could be that Alonso is simply showing him the way.

Massa has been very quiet this season. Whether it's because of political considerations, or a fundamental acknowledgement of a faster teammate is hard to say. He was much more vocal during the winter than he is now.

He was very vocal in his tries to 'intimidate' his new team-mate in Winter. Singapore issues, how Alonso has 'to learn', that he is 'new to the team' and Massa well settled in his 'Ferrari family' yadda yadda.

I actually like Massa but i thought this was a bit cheap back then. I like him a lot more when he is doing his job and work hard, because to keep up with Alonso he has to.

Otherwise i think they both have found a 'status quo' in their fight for getting back to the top, together with the team. A gentlemen's agreement. How long it will last is another question, F1 is not a walk in the park and sooner or later there will be disagreements; but i trust in Ferrari's ability to handle that if it comes along, and hopefully better than RB did.

Actually a lot of people suffer everyday car accidents, so indeed doctors have to deal with such accidents everyday. Just go to any hospital and ask for "head traumatisms".

I am not looking at just one practice or qualifying... There is a permanent 4 to 6 tenths gap between Alonso and Massa... And that is really big... He was on a same level as Räikkonen... So, is then Räikkonen so bad/slow, too? I don t see the same Massa as before, sorry... He was constantly improving from his first year in Ferrari... Even in 2009 he had some bad qualifyings, but on other hand, he was much better in races... This year he is doing awful in practices, qualifyings and races... Why so suddenly? Off course, only because Alonso...

You can't "measure" head traumas though.That can only be known after the accident by seeing if the victim has a change in behaviour or not.I wouldn't be surprised if FM has some changes in his behaviour.

Truth is - its not injury (probably) and not Alonso simply being faster driver (0.5 s would be huge by current F1 standards). What is going on here is McLaren/Kovalainen 2008. situation or Button 2009. after that big update package came mid-season. He simply can't get his tyres to work well with current car.

So what? Are you saying head trauma is slowing him just approximatelly 2-4 tenths? It can't happen like that.

Massa is the same old Massa from 2006. Nothing changed.

It's just Ferrari made him look good, thus killing Raikkonen. Simple.


It seems people here are hoping Massa will be stronger in 2011.
I'll say immediately: He won't be better than Alonso in 2011. Mark my words. You can qoute me on that, if you want.

That is not an excuse to pass blame from the driver. It's his job to work with the engineers to get everything about the car working as effectively as possible. Any driver failing to get the tyres working when he is ultimately in control of them is just as much to blame if not more than the engineers.

If another driver with the same machine can get them to work then the engineers are clearly not to blame.

In 2007 clearly someone else than Alonso was to blame at McLaren. Wrong tyre pressures, etc., they even had to have someone come from Spain to watch in the garage that they are not screwing him over. Obviously Fernando could not be slower, he just had the wrong tyre pressures.

This is how it works.


And in 2008, Kimi leads the WDC, wins races, then the team changes his suspension (there was no need to change it because he was winning and leading the WDC), then he starts losing in qualifyings (in the races he was still often faster than his team-mate), a few races went like this, then they gave him his old suspension back, and oh what a surprise, he was again not having problems with qualifying pace and could easily be ahead of Felipe or driving at the same pace in the races (ideal for Ferrari to get Massa the title, didn't work, well who screwed up?)

This is how it works.

Absolutely the driver was to blame in both cases Fernando asked for wrong tyre pressures and Kimi asked for his suspension to be screwed up for him by Ferrari.



Now we are in 2010 and we hear the same complaint from Massa that we heard from Kimi in 2008 - can't get tyre temperatures optimal, well, hey, no problem, just blame the guy himself, the rest of the team has nothing to do with it! Yes, indeed, you can separate one individual from the team at any time and lay all the blame squarely on his or her shoulders! This is how true teamwork is done! Every team in the World should do the same because this is the right way to do it!

Yep and Alonso was doing better when he was paying his mechanics from his own pocket to get the job done, he did everything in his power to maximise his performance while McLaren tried to prevent it. They never let him use his superior experience. McLaren against Alonso was a bit of a different situation than Ferrari who we all know very much like Massa and have worked with him for so many years. If Ferrari where anything like McLaren they wouldn't have let Massa show up Kimi or given him the support to be right up with Schumacher for pace.

No one seems to be able to show how Ferrari has suddenly stopped supporting Massa so his performance has dropped this year, the car is capable, the team has the knowledge so either they are not helping (which is unlikely given history and no one can give a reasonable argument for) or Massa is the weak link.


I'm not attacking Massa, I like him but the reality is very visible. It happens all the time that someone under performs but the only sensible way to tackle it is to realise where the problem lies and solve it instead of grasping to theory's which you are comfortable with.

+1

And when Massa beats Alonso then Alonso is overrated

You only have to watch onboards to see Massa is struggling. Most drivers would be thrashing him.