You cant be his fan,,,

+10

Maybe to replace Rosberg considering this story.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=41293

If there's any truth to that article it certainly doesn't suggest Kimi going to MGP likely. It means the opposite. Kimi has always strictly said his two (and only two) interests are rally and/or driving in F1 car that is one of the top two/capable of winning WDC. That article only talks about how bad the MGP car is. This is total opposite of saying anything that would indicate Kimi going there.

There is big difference between Haug wanting to sign Kimi and Kimi signing. Whitmarsh wanted Kimi to sign McL this year but Kimi declined presumably due to McL team rules prohibiting driving in different sereis (i.e. no rally).

I think the idea Kimi signing to MGP is completely ridiculous and no way in world. Renault I think there is some slight chance since Renault might be competitive enough and because they let their drivers do rally. Other than Renault forget Kimi in F1 he's a rally driver now he already WDCed and has so much money he would never be able to spend it in his lifetime even if he was kind of guy who likes to spend money on all kinds of fancy crap.

though i agree with the comment about mercedes/brawn heading back to the doldrums,at this point id just like to see him back..anywhere!... renault,mercedes,heck even lotus/HRT..


his comments at the end are very harsh indeed.

"If you start in twelfth behind both Williams, who were nowhere weeks ago, what can you expect from there? I went from Williams to Mercedes because I thought I'd have a car capable of winning."

Here is what Mercedes has to say about it. They must have said Nico to shut up:



http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motorsport/story/21975.html

What´s the point? Nico was pissed but hit it right. Merc s*cks compared to situation early in the season. Maybe he has been told to shut up after his comments but..

..Nico stays with Mercedes, he is young and (propably) capable. Schumey may quit, Schumey may continue but Kimi won´t be with them. I simply can´t see him joining Brawn-operated team.

Are you Gérard López?

Yes, I was in fact just showing Kimi the R31 for next year and how it's lookin, here is a sneak peak:

I guess that would depend on how much testing he was going to do


$16M? What does Kubica get paid?

Be interesting to see Kimi paired up with Kubica, but Kimi's only really interested in driving a race winning car


No it was offside


Sean is very much a Kimi fan

Only problem is that “bee-yellow” doesn’t suit Kimi too well, he’s too pale.



Only positional. That was a difficult one, though. At least the match ended happily .
Oh my! Who am I going to cheer in the semis? It’s not fair! Germany-Spain should only happen in the final.

Looked okay in red though....

http://www.ci.loveland.co.us/fire/images/F...%20-%20logo.gif

That news about Norbert Haug having visited Kimi at his home may in fact have been 'leaked' by Kimi's manager.

I really don't know but I don't understand how else such information could become public. One party must have leaked it.

There appears to be a 'price' for Kimi's services attached in the 'news' and that may be what they wanted to have published. It's a bit weird as I would imagine they would talk directly to the teams instead of using 'the press' to tell it to them, so in fact this may have been made up as well as far as I know... let's see whether this week we will hear a denial or not.

I am only speculating and I have absolutely no connections to any party involved in this at all.


Edit: In fact I would be disappointed if no journalist asks Norbert Haug directly about this. Go and ask him, is it true that he visited Kimi in Switzerland. I can't believe this hasn't been done... other media companies just report the same original story but it appears that they do no effort at all to verify it if actually happened. That's not journalism as far as I am concerned. How hard can it be to call Haug and ask him if it's true.

Red Bull could use Kimi. The situation over there is a bunch of BS at present and if not Kimi - they need some driver to replace one or the other of the two they've got now (which could set in motion a crazy turn of events if the one leaving was Vettel). Renault could legitimately use him too, if the car improves enough to make it worth his while. Petrov and his 6 points is not going to get them into the WCC hunt, which is what they want. Mercedes is out as far as I am concerned - as is Ferrari of course. Macca would only be an option if someone left - and that could be to replace an unhappy driver - either one of the two - at year's end (another crazy turn of events could result from that).

And that is just F1 options - then there is Rally - and likely other stuff we have not even mentioned. Raikkonen is unpredictable - even in his predictability. Fun to conjecture, but second guessing him is an exercise in futility.

Why could Redbull use him and whats wrong with redbull atm? Both drivers are fighting for the wdc. Kimi fans (and kimi) seem to think he has some divine right to the best seats in the sport, but that time is over. He had a decade in the two best teams, time for others to get a chance. I would be glad to see him at Renault though, and I think there is a good chance he will be back soon, as he will get sick of not being front line in rally.

I'm still a big F1 fan but until this year F1 has usually had either real characters or insanely fast drivers and Kimi is both so he is missed. I still believe that the guy doesn't give a crap about money other than to have some to share with his friends and since he already has truckloads of cash, any speculation that he would come back to F1 for the money is plain silly. So is speculation that he isn't serious about rally simply because no other modern F1 driver has had the talent to successfully cross over yet. He'll go wherever the fun and the challenges are.

Having said that, while he may indeed be coveted by F1 teams right now, he is also very valuable to them while he is out of F1. Team principals can freely use his name as a bargaining chip. If drivers are led to believe they are competing with Kimi for a seat, they may be more likely to sign on the dotted line more quickly or for less money. For example, who knows if this was the case with Webber?

I think the team mates get on too poorly at RB, so they need to replace one of them before another 2007 Macca happens. Perhaps that won't happen, and that would be all right too.

You are wrong about Kimi fans though. They only discuss the best seats for Kimi because HE said he would only return if he had a car capable of winning the WDC. Otherwise he aint coming back. So it would be kind of stupid for us to speculate about openings at Sauber, Lotus, or Williams, and imo, even at Merc. with the way things are looking with their cars right now.

If as you say, the time for 'best seats' is over for Kimi, then F1 is over for Kimi too, so your hopes and my hopes would all be dashed in as far as any return to F1. You mention Renault as if it could not be one of the best seats - but I think it possibly could be. Let's see how they go on from now...

Kimi is not almost unquestionably better than Webber in every way. Afterall we seen in the same car that Kimi is not really much better than Massa if at all. Webber has always been a pretty fast driver, but unlike kimi, had to drive for many years without a competitive car.

If you look at wins and poles or the like of course Kimi is easily ahead. But that would be ignoring the fact that they have had different machinery. If you look at their performances against their team-mates it is not so clear.

There was a reason Kimi was plucked from Sauber by Macca and chosen by Ferrari to fill the seats of their "better machinery" and Webber was not. Think about that...

There is no comparison - Kimi is one of the best race drivers when it comes to speed, handling and judgment. To me, Webber is fast (although not as fast) - and actually all F1 drivers are fast enough in general - but Webber is also mistake prone, due to his manner of racing (race style and characteristics.) and his attitude is less than accomodating at times. These are qualities that I feel have held him back in addition to not having the degree of acumen and skill that Kimi has shown, imo.

Why do you say the Red Bull situation is a bunch of BS? It is not that impossible for two drivers that may not get along on a personal level to still work together professionally.

I agree, it could go either way. I note the very sour attitude prevailing and it seems things are getting worse rather than better. But maybe that is temporary. In any case, it would be a good reason to replace one or the other if things don't pep up. That option wouldn't necessarily mean Kimi at all - but since we are speculating, it is as good as any other, lol.

Kimi has better race craft than Webber also.

I can't see Kimi coming back next year - as much as i'd love that to happen. His main chance was with Red Bull and Webber's form peak and clash with his teammate happened at the wrong time (for Kimi). Now, even if Webber's form dips in the wake of the Valencia incident, its too late.

Mercedes I cant see happening because Schu will stay on. Renault is a small chance but I doubt Kimi will go there.

Congratulations on ruining what was a very chilled and friendly thread.

There was no need to bash Webber or any other driver here, now there's going to be one of those tedious arguments peppered with meaningless statistics for pages on end.

What is so clear?

If you are quoting diff machinery , Then same applies to diff team mates in diff seasons..

The only perfect way to compare would be if Kimi & Webber would ve been in the same team - And I know as well as you - who would we be betting our money for to come ahead.

EDIT - Cant beleive I just compared Kimi with Webber. Please ignore - they are on different levels.

I agree there is no perfect comparison.

However Kimi was matched by Massa who has never been anything special. That alone imo is reason to suggest that Kimi is not heaps bettter than Webber. And Massa is not the first driver to be as quick as him, Heidfeld was also as fast as him (albeit first year). Webber has always been fast but without a good car. Up until Vettel he has always been quicker than his team-mate (atleast in qualifying he was quicker than Heidfeld even though he didn't get as good results). And in qualifying he did better against Coulthard than Kimi did.

Sure Kimi is probably overall a better driver than him but I certainly would not be expecting Kimi to walk all over him and I think Webber is more than capable of beating him.

It kinda reminds me of the fact that Kimi scored more points then Webber last year in the second half of the season, in a dog of a Ferrari while Webber was obvious driving the fastest car on the grid. But of course it is all apples and oranges at the end of the day.

Yeah, Ferrari stopped developing their car early and for some weird (?) reason then Kimi got more points than anyone bar Hamilton, who arguably had a better car than Kimi in the 2nd-half of the season (McLaren kept developing their car whilst Ferrari didn't develop theirs). That was a super-performance from Kimi, but some (idiots, let's be honest about this) speak of Kimi's 2009 season too like it was some sort of a disaster (oh, and the "real" disaster ended up at the FIA gala getting a WDC 3rd-place trophy, yawn, what a disaster, I bet there are a lot of racing drivers in F1 who wish for such a disaster). Fortunately we don't have to care about what those people say!

You cannot just judge off 8 or 9 races. Do we assume that Massa is twice as good as Kimi because in the first half of 2009 he had more than double the points of him? Of course not.

Webber's poor second half I think was probably a combination of the car not being competitive at some tracks like Valencia and Monza, bad luck and of course some down to his driving. Kimi on the other hand had a really good run. Some would probably say his best period in F1, however it was clearly not the best in Webber's career.

Car Setup and tyres play a huge role in how a driver performs in comparison to his teammate. Just look at Schumacher this year to prove that. Hence why Massa's performance against Kimi (although he was very quick) has been over-stated by some.

Regardless, Kimi's latter half of 2009 was nothing short of brilliant.

I agree. But we seen Kimi was not really much faster than Massa over 2 and a half years. Through that time we had traction control, no traction control, grooved tyres, slick tyres, different aero regulations. I think there becomes a time when you just have to accept a driver was just not as fast as perhaps was first thought. And whilst he did drive well in the end of 2009, I don't think a driver just suddenly gets faster. Its logical to assume that Massa would have been up there with Kimi at the end of 2009 as well.

Don't get me wrong I think Kimi is a good driver and would love to see him back on the grid, but I also think his abilities were and to some extent still are over estimated.

Kimi has himself said that the reason for his increased performance is that they were able to "get things the way he wanted them to be." So if you mean Massa would be equal in performance to Kimi in the second half, sure, I'm not disputing that. From what Kimi said it's logical to assume that if Massa was there he wouldn't be able to get the "things to be the way he wanted" so they would both be trundling around in the midfield. Everyone knows that he is a political wet rag anyway.

But to assume that Massa would have been the second/third best scorer in the 2nd half next to Kimi? I don't think so.

Given that he outscored him in both 2008 and 2009 up until his crash it is absolutely more than possible. Fisichella did struggle a lot but even in Japan in the middle stint he was nearly as fast as Kimi so I am not tempted to believe they changed the car and he just suddenly got faster overnight.

I don't understand the point. In 2009, the car was awful. He didn't get faster overnight, there was a build up to first place and a struggle even with that. He was 6th in WDC hunt despite the F60's woes, not too bad. The McLaren didn't fare much better. These drivers didn't just laze out or suddenly have a year in which they decided slow is good. The cars wouldn't go. Like those little 3 wheelers you get when you are three and you kick them as they troll down the hill so they will go faster, but they never do... Both the Ferrari and McLaren got better for a minute mid year - so yeah, they changed the cars and both just suddenly got faster overnight - if overnight = midseason for a few races.

I'm not downplaying Massa or even trying to cloud any difficencies Kimi may have had. I still think on raw talent, race craft and ability under pressure Kimi was 2nd to none. In terms of team leadership, motivation or getting the best out of his car in terms of set-up - he certainly had room to improve.

That said, I do think Massa was more comfortable with the car and team than Kimi was. The team also changed the development path of the car in 2008 which suited Massa even though Kimi was at one stage leading the championship and also at a time he had some bad luck. Now I will criticise Kimi for allowing this to happen (development path) without putting up a fight or some input and also for not having more input in the tyre choice for Britain that year - but in fairness his performance overall in 2008 was better than the history books and points tables suggest.

Still there is no better way than for him to come back and show us where exactly he now stands among the other drivers.

Fair enough post although I disagree. I never seen this awesome talent Kimi had at Ferrari. Massa was pretty much always competitive with him, even when Kimi was clearly better like France 2008 for example, it was not huge margin. Compare that to how far Schumacher was ahead of him and even now Alonso has turned up and put a bigger margin than that over him pretty much straight away. I think its not just motivation, set up or adaptability but both Hamilton and Alonso are faster and more talented drivers than him.

However I think your last point is absoluetly right.

Massa has never really been anything special yet he was as fast as Kimi. So surely he can't have done anything that exceptional at the end of 09 if Massa could have been as fast as him. The way I was seeing it if he was doing that brilliantly he would have had to have gotten faster and it would have had to be overnight. He did well in those races, but perhaps the car would have done even better had LH or FA been driving it.

Unfortunately, if the only reason for Kimi to return is to prove his comparative ability, you won't be seeing him in F1 ever again. He doesn't care what anyone thinks - he's made that perfectly clear.



I understand what you are trying to say here, but I disagree with your arguments - so I would have to agree with your conclusion also. LH couldn't deal with his own poor performing vehicle - he only obtained 1 point more than Raikkonen that year. Maybe the Macca would have performed better with Raikkonen driving it, since he had far more experience with those cars in down times. Alonso appears to be struggling this year with his Ferrari - and I do attribute a lot of that to the car itself. They appear to be on an upswing though, so we'll have to see how things go. Had Raikkonen been driving so far, he may have been able to do a lot more with the car because he would not have been under the same pressure. So I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think the opposite arguments have any support. Why would LH or FA drive a bomb of a Ferrari better? They had no experience with Ferraris. They both proved that they could not perform in their own cars when they were not running at optimum - so I do not really see any support for your opinion.

Magic01: Massa is not the only teammate Kimi ever had. Why do you base so much of your points on just Massa?

"So surely he can't have done anything that exceptional at the end of 09 if Massa could have been as fast as him. "
Come on, now. The car was only comparatively getting worse since Ferrari stopped development mid-season. If Massa could not take those cars to consistent podiums when the car was more competitive, how would he have done that when the development was stopped? The reason why Kimi did it - they changed the set up to the way Kimi liked it.

The cars might be mechanically identical. But that does not mean the cars were equal for two teammates if their preferences are different. So, no, teammate comparisons are not always straightforward.

That 2009 season wasn't so straightforward as Massa simply outscoring Kimi. The same goes for 2008, Kimi was actually leading the WDC in the first half of the season. But I will give you a small recap of 2009:

It never really worked that way between Kimi and Massa, making any meaningful conclusions from their time together in 2009 is futile. In fact it was often almost mostly up to the luck of the draw. As I will illustrate to you by using the 2009 season:

Australia

Felipe outqualified Kimi. In the race Felipe retired, Kimi was up to 3rd place before crashing/ retiring. According to the official FIA reports it was a technical failure, however Kimi himself and the team said it was his fault. Make of it as you wish.

Malaysia

Kimi qualified 9th and was promoted to 7th after some penalties were handed out. Felipe however was hampered by a mistake in calculations by Ferrari. Ferrari didn't send him out in time, thus he failed to reach Q2. In the race Kimi was running in a good place, until the Ferrari strategist decided to place Kimi on full wets in bone dry conditions. Ferrari had to replace the tyres twice more, for both Kimi and Felipe before finally getting it right, and by that time it was to late.

China

Kimi outqualified Felipe. Felipe has a very good start to the race but retires after a few laps. Kimi finishes in 10th place, but he reports some engine problems in the race.

Bahrain

Kimi outqualified Felipe. At the start Felipe sustained front wing damage from Barrichello, and because of a front wing change he ended up in 14th place, while Kimi scored Ferrari's first points for the season.

Spain

Ferrari gets the calculations wrong once again, they dont send Kimi out for a second run and he is out in Q3. Kimi made a good start going from 16th to 10th. Felipe also has a good start and was running high in 4th place until the fuel sensor malfunctioned and Felipe had to slow down until 6th place.

Monaco

Kimi outqualifies Felipe. Monaco was the fist race of the season where Ferrari, Felipe and Kimi had no problems what so ever. Kimi finishes 3rd and scores Ferrari's fist podium and Felipe finishes 4th.

Turkey

Felipe outqualifies Kimi. At the start Kimi's front wing is driven off by Alonso in a first lap racing incident, because of a front wing change Kimi finishes the race in 9th. Felipe does good and finishes the race in 6th, without incident.

Britain

Kimi outqualifies Felipe. At Siverstone it is always more beneficial to have more fuel onboard. Felipe who qualified outside of the top ten the has the advantage of filling up and going for a longer strategy. Kimi made a good start but because he pits first with less fuel (because he qualified in the top 10), he loses places. Just to prove the point the further, the exact same thing happened to Alonso he also qualified in the top ten, but he still ended up behind Piquet in the final result, because Piquet had the advantage of going lighter, this was also the only race in 2009 where Piquet ended up infront of Alonso. And the same happened with Kimi, he finished in 8th place while Felipe finished in 4th place. But at least there wasn't any other problems during the weekend.

Germany

Felipe outqualifies Kimi. Felipe makes a good start up onto 4th place, Kim retires due to debris in the radiator after a few laps. Felipe goes on to get his first podium of the year.



There was so much issues for both drivers during the season that it is practically impossible to conclude anything of value from their 2009 season. Out of nine races there were practically only two races without any incident between them both - Monaco and Silverstone, and even then it is still a bit flawed.

So in your opinion we might be overestimating Kimi, but perhaps we use a more holistic approach to look at things.

Another thing to add about 2009 season is: Because of KERS weight balance issues, Kimi's car was 1.5 kg heavier until they got him the lighter chassis.

You know what surprised me about Ferrari in 2009 - that in the first half of the season they lost a lot of points not because their cars were slow but because of strategy, reliability and other mistakes. It was some kind of nightmare, there was a fan joke - "Let's guess what new mistake Ferrari would invent next race". And you analysis, intelligentsia, shows it very well.
In the second part of the season it was a completely different team. Almost no mistakes, except few minor ones.
It really puzzles me - why did Ferrari change so much in one season?

yeah they were pretty even during the season, strategies and reliability played big role on that small correction: Kimi outqualified Felipe at turkey. also Kimi did outqualify Felipe at Hungary, Felipe wouldnt have make it to the Q3 even without his incident.

They were trying to be too clever for their own good while Massa was driving and they hadn't given up on F60 yet. Then once they decided to switch to focusing on F10, leaving Kimi to just drive and stopping meddling with things all the time, surprise surprise, he drove just like he did every year except maybe 2008 (if you are one of people who think his terrible 3rd in WDC was driver fault not the fault of suspension misdesign) and better than everyone else on grid. The exact kind of driving that had compelled them to go to such extreme lengths to woo him (over everyone else) from McL to replace Schumi (i.e. the kind of driving they presumably felt was the best f1 driver in the world).

They would drive it better because they are faster drivers. And so far this season I have not seen anything to indicate different than that. Raikkonen is roughly on the same level as Massa, and atleast so far you cannot say the same for Alonso.

Firstly Monaco is not correct as Massa got traffic in qualifying.

But of course a 22-10 score line is not representative and a lot of things happenned. However I can't say I seen anything to change my opinion of how they compare from how they compared in 2009.

Hungary and Valencia were always going to be good F60 tracks. The car was more competitive on slow tracks, as shown in Monaco. And Spa and Monza were low downforce tracks, and we seen where the form book went in those races. And given that Fisichella was pretty much on his pace in Japan I'm not willing to believe that they changed the set up and he suddenly got faster.

Re first point, because Kimi was matched for 2 and a half years by Massa. But also he was matched by Heidfeld and whilst at the time his performance against Coulthard looked impressive, Webber outqualified him more than Kimi did. It only really leaves Montoya, but given how Kimi fares against all his other team-mates I don't think that is a good indicator.

Setup:this has more to do with the fact that he has naturally a narrower setup window that probably any other guy around(except maybe kubica)..that is because of the extreme amount of oversteer/rear instability that he likes in a car.the comments of Stella come to mind when he joined the team in 07 when the ferrari engineer mentioned his surprise at the fact that kimi liked much more oversteer than even schumacher..

this has both pros and cons.whilst his preferable setup window becomes very narrow because of this,he is also devastatingly quick when he is given those settings..the same reason why Whitmarsh is such a big fan of him and why he was so bent at bringing him back at mclaren..thats cause he had worked with him for so many years and knew u would have the fastest driver on the grid if u could give him what he wants in a car.

You could see the same example with Michael Schumacher..fastest guy on the track in his ferrari but the problems his team mates had with his setups are well known..they just couldnt adjust to the fact that guys like MS/kimi can live with far less rear traction than other guys on the grid.



Leadership:havent formed a definite opinion on his leadership qualities as he looked OK during his stint at mclaren but haplessly allowed ferrari to develop the car in his teammate's direction...but maybe that has to do with the possible commitment issues he suffered in 08.

Motivation:..ive been clear about this many times on this forum and being a kimi fan doesnt stop me from accepting the fact that raikkonen probably did have commitment issues during 08.there were too many reports from the paddock guys like James Allen and others to neglect this aspect completely..plus i cant fanthom the fact that a fully committed raikkonen would be comfortable with someone as average as massa beating him.



+1.this is certainly something i wouldnt expect an MS/Alonso/pre 08 Raikkonen to ever allow to happen.



that is what i thought he'd do at the end of 09..sign at mclaren and show the world where he stands. with respect to the other top guys..But he clearly wasnt motivated enough for f1 at that point of time..plus the fact that he doesnt seem to give a rat's ass about anyone's opinion...another top driver wouldnt be happy with such an exit from F1 considering the reputation he enjoyed at the end of 05



Gerry,this is where ill disagree with you.i dont rate the brazilian at all and i feel he was overrated by his perfromances against a thoroughly handicapped raikkonen..i commented on this last year as well when everyone seemed to feel Massa was suddenly top draw..his raw pace compared to Alonso this year has made it clear he doesnt belong there.